Trapshooting and hunting gun.

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Trapshooting and hunting gun.

Postby ducktail455 » Sat Jun 22, 2013 10:53 pm

I was thinking about buying a CZ-USA manufactured over/under shotgun the prices are relatively low for an O/U shotgun, but are they good quality guns? :help:
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Re: Trapshooting and hunting gun.

Postby clampdaddy » Sun Jun 23, 2013 11:17 am

I had a Redhead Deluxe for a while. It was a very nicely finished gun and it patterned well. It was on the heavy side though and it developed a problem with the ejectors to where it would pop both shells out even if only barrel was fired. I converted it to work as an extractor gun and sold it to a buddy. I have thought about buying another but if I do it'll be a double trigger/extractor model like the Mallard, and it'll be in a smaller gauge to shed some weight.
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Re: Trapshooting and hunting gun.

Postby mudpack » Sun Jun 23, 2013 3:57 pm

ducktail455 wrote:I was thinking about buying a CZ-USA manufactured over/under shotgun the prices are relatively low for an O/U shotgun, but are they good quality guns? :help:

Depends on one's definition of "quality", I suppose.

The build quality of a shotgun is in direct relation to its price.
That's the rule.
No exceptions.

Clampdaddy's experience is a good example.
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Re: Trapshooting and hunting gun.

Postby DuckManClyde » Tue Jun 25, 2013 4:41 pm

It may not have been an o/u but we had a brand new cz semi-auto get donated as a trap gun. IT SUCKED. I was the first to shoot it, i had to pull my knife out after every shot to pick the spent shell out of the chamber. Based on my experience, Stay away from cz.
On the other hand, not all cheap guns are bad. I shoot a stoeger condor for trap and i have a Stoeger longfowler for hunting. I recommend the supreme condor for what your using it for. AA grade walnut stock, and ejectors. ( about 500$ ). OR if you just want a standard stock and extractors its going to cost closer to 350-400$ depending on where you buy it. STOEGER IS THE WAY TO GO FOR A CHEAP/RELIABLE OVER UNDER. :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
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Re: Trapshooting and hunting gun.

Postby Sgtstadanko707 » Tue Jun 25, 2013 9:22 pm

DuckManClyde wrote:It may not have been an o/u but we had a brand new cz semi-auto get donated as a trap gun. IT SUCKED. I was the first to shoot it, i had to pull my knife out after every shot to pick the spent shell out of the chamber. Based on my experience, Stay away from cz.
On the other hand, not all cheap guns are bad. I shoot a stoeger condor for trap and i have a Stoeger longfowler for hunting. I recommend the supreme condor for what your using it for. AA grade walnut stock, and ejectors. ( about 500$ ). OR if you just want a standard stock and extractors its going to cost closer to 350-400$ depending on where you buy it. STOEGER IS THE WAY TO GO FOR A CHEAP/RELIABLE OVER UNDER. :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:


I have a cz720 and love it. My dove/pheasant and clay gun. Over 2k rounds with no jams. I wouldn't say all cz are crap. The old dude that has the record for my self toss clays shots cz and he is one of the best shooters in the world so to say that all cz are crap wouldn't not be right.
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Re: Trapshooting and hunting gun.

Postby DuckManClyde » Tue Jun 25, 2013 11:00 pm

Sgtstadanko707 wrote:
DuckManClyde wrote:It may not have been an o/u but we had a brand new cz semi-auto get donated as a trap gun. IT SUCKED. I was the first to shoot it, i had to pull my knife out after every shot to pick the spent shell out of the chamber. Based on my experience, Stay away from cz.
On the other hand, not all cheap guns are bad. I shoot a stoeger condor for trap and i have a Stoeger longfowler for hunting. I recommend the supreme condor for what your using it for. AA grade walnut stock, and ejectors. ( about 500$ ). OR if you just want a standard stock and extractors its going to cost closer to 350-400$ depending on where you buy it. STOEGER IS THE WAY TO GO FOR A CHEAP/RELIABLE OVER UNDER. :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:


I have a cz720 and love it. My dove/pheasant and clay gun. Over 2k rounds with no jams. I wouldn't say all cz are crap. The old dude that has the record for my self toss clays shots cz and he is one of the best shooters in the world so to say that all cz are crap wouldn't not be right.


I didnt exactly say that all CZs were crap. Just the one that I had. And best in the world ay? Any chance that his name would be Tom Knapp? Cause he shot beretta shotguns too.
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Re: Trapshooting and hunting gun.

Postby z51 » Wed Jun 26, 2013 8:35 am

CZ guns are decent quality. Better than the Brazilian made Condor or Turkish made Yildiz, which too light IMO. It is the pick of the litter in it's price range. I too would recommend you buy a model with extractors. It's one less thing to go wrong. They make the DeHaan guns which is the same gun inspected Mark DeHaan which adds cost. I would get the CZ if you like it.

A trap gun should have longer barrels, extractor, and carry some weight to keep recoil down. Not bad features in a duck gun either.
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Re: Trapshooting and hunting gun.

Postby clampdaddy » Wed Jun 26, 2013 9:12 am

z51 wrote: ...A trap gun should have longer barrels, extractor, and carry some weight to keep recoil down. Not bad features in a duck gun either.


Very true. When I think over/under I automatically think quail and pheasant hunting where extra weight is a bad thing. The extra weight would be nice for clay and ducks.
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Re: Trapshooting and hunting gun.

Postby jpari » Wed Jun 26, 2013 2:19 pm

DuckManClyde wrote:
Sgtstadanko707 wrote:
DuckManClyde wrote:It may not have been an o/u but we had a brand new cz semi-auto get donated as a trap gun. IT SUCKED. I was the first to shoot it, i had to pull my knife out after every shot to pick the spent shell out of the chamber. Based on my experience, Stay away from cz.
On the other hand, not all cheap guns are bad. I shoot a stoeger condor for trap and i have a Stoeger longfowler for hunting. I recommend the supreme condor for what your using it for. AA grade walnut stock, and ejectors. ( about 500$ ). OR if you just want a standard stock and extractors its going to cost closer to 350-400$ depending on where you buy it. STOEGER IS THE WAY TO GO FOR A CHEAP/RELIABLE OVER UNDER. :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:


I have a cz720 and love it. My dove/pheasant and clay gun. Over 2k rounds with no jams. I wouldn't say all cz are crap. The old dude that has the record for my self toss clays shots cz and he is one of the best shooters in the world so to say that all cz are crap wouldn't not be right.


I didnt exactly say that all CZs were crap. Just the one that I had. And best in the world ay? Any chance that his name would be Tom Knapp? Cause he shot beretta shotguns too.



Now that you mention it, I think that at one time or another Tom Knapp was sponsored by Beretta, Benelli and now CZ and consequently shot those guns when sponsored by each company. Does anyone know if Tom Knapp was sponsored by any other company over the years?
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Re: Trapshooting and hunting gun.

Postby z51 » Wed Jun 26, 2013 8:29 pm

He's not shooting for anyone now he's dead as a mackerel.
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Re: Trapshooting and hunting gun.

Postby Sgtstadanko707 » Thu Jun 27, 2013 12:07 am

z51 wrote:He's not shooting for anyone now he's dead as a mackerel.


It happend like a month ago. That's crazy. Didn't even know that.
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Re: Trapshooting and hunting gun.

Postby 3200 man » Thu Jun 27, 2013 6:22 am

Yep ! He's no longer with us .

He came to our club to perform his magic a few years ago , what a showman ,he was !
After the show , we went to a local watering hole and I will say , Tom Knapp was one heck of a fella .

I was fortunate to get to know him as he was quite a guy , smart ,funny ,well traveled and one of the best story-tellers
I have ever met .

Like he use to say , two fingers ? hell no , feel the glass up ! :lol3:

RIP Tom , thank you for your time !
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Re: Trapshooting and hunting gun.

Postby Jon Bergren » Thu Jun 27, 2013 9:04 am

I enjoyed Tom's shows and trick shooting. Also when pheasant hunting he would miss just like the rest of us, but hit most of the time. He also hunted with a Lab.
As far as a excellent Trap and hunting gun look at the Excell made in Turkey and sold and distributed by H & R. It is a locking block design with an O ring seal similiar to a Rem 1100 gas operated, but without the parts that wear on an 1100. The bolt handle can't shoot off and the bolt spring is around the magazine where it should be. No bolt buffer to wear out. It has a sleeve that you turn around for 3" loads, but I leave it on the 3" setting as my fast loads will cycle it. I only change for lead dove loads. It also takes the Rem chokes which I have plenty including Terrors. It has become my go too gun. It is a 28" gun but I have a 26" barrel for it, $50 at CDNN which takes different chokes. I paid $300 for it at the Academy about 4 yrs ago. Everyone that shot it at clays liked it. When I bought mine several had shot 1200 clays with a similiar gun without a problem. I have shot it many times mallard hunting in below freezing temperatures and haven't had any problems with it. I lube all my guns with Hoppes gun oil. Ned S
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Re: Trapshooting and hunting gun.

Postby DuckManClyde » Thu Jun 27, 2013 11:07 am

Jon Bergren wrote:I enjoyed Tom's shows and trick shooting. Also when pheasant hunting he would miss just like the rest of us, but hit most of the time. He also hunted with a Lab.
As far as a excellent Trap and hunting gun look at the Excell made in Turkey and sold and distributed by H & R. It is a locking block design with an O ring seal similiar to a Rem 1100 gas operated, but without the parts that wear on an 1100. The bolt handle can't shoot off and the bolt spring is around the magazine where it should be. No bolt buffer to wear out. It has a sleeve that you turn around for 3" loads, but I leave it on the 3" setting as my fast loads will cycle it. I only change for lead dove loads. It also takes the Rem chokes which I have plenty including Terrors. It has become my go too gun. It is a 28" gun but I have a 26" barrel for it, $50 at CDNN which takes different chokes. I paid $300 for it at the Academy about 4 yrs ago. Everyone that shot it at clays liked it. When I bought mine several had shot 1200 clays with a similiar gun without a problem. I have shot it many times mallard hunting in below freezing temperatures and haven't had any problems with it. I lube all my guns with Hoppes gun oil. Ned S


I would never buy an H&R again, They may be partnered with Marlin, but there still out of china. We had bought a pardner Pump 20ga and couldnt hit a bull in the butt. Come to find out the barrel is warped beyond belief. I have no problem buying foreign guns ( turkey, russian, brazilian.) But the chinese cant seem to make a descent firearm to save their behinds. Sort of makes you feel bad for their military. Who knows what they have their soldiers carrying. :lol:
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Re: Trapshooting and hunting gun.

Postby Jon Bergren » Thu Jun 27, 2013 11:21 am

H & R doesn't make the Excell. It is made in Turkey. It's like any other gun, you have to be smarter than the gun. It has performed flawlessly even in 10F last Christmas. Ned S
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Re: Trapshooting and hunting gun.

Postby Frank Lopez » Thu Jun 27, 2013 11:32 am

In an O/U, I'd stay away from the low end guns, especially if high volume shooting is in the mix. As with most guns, there are good ones and bad ones in the same model line. With the lower end stuff, the ration is higher for the clinkers. I would also avoid ANYTHING made in Turkey! Like the Spanish guns of the 70s, they've been enticed by the US dollar and the products they ship here are NOT top level.

If price is a serious consideration, I suggest you visit some gun shops and shoulder as many different Brownings, Berettas, SKBs, etc., to see how they fit you. Once you determine your likes and dislikes, visit the on-line sites and see what's available on the used market. Browning Citoris, Berettas and some others are available for about the cost of the CZ and are far better guns.

Frank
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Re: Trapshooting and hunting gun.

Postby Jon Bergren » Thu Jun 27, 2013 11:38 am

Frank Lopez wrote:In an O/U, I'd stay away from the low end guns, especially if high volume shooting is in the mix. As with most guns, there are good ones and bad ones in the same model line. With the lower end stuff, the ration is higher for the clinkers. I would also avoid ANYTHING made in Turkey! Like the Spanish guns of the 70s, they've been enticed by the US dollar and the products they ship here are NOT top level.

If price is a serious consideration, I suggest you visit some gun shops and shoulder as many different Brownings, Berettas, SKBs, etc., to see how they fit you. Once you determine your likes and dislikes, visit the on-line sites and see what's available on the used market. Browning Citoris, Berettas and some others are available for about the cost of the CZ and are far better guns.

Frank


Subjective statements without any data for proof. Ned S
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Re: Trapshooting and hunting gun.

Postby apexhunter » Thu Jun 27, 2013 12:30 pm

I am not defending Frank but agreeing with his statement as he has some very valid points regardless of if they are backed by statistics or are of a subjective manner...over the years one can easily find many examples of "low dollar" imported doubles failing in all manners. From personal experience I know this to be true from trigger guards falling off, ribs shooting loose, springs breaking and extractors and/or ejectors failing miserably, and this is on a few different makes and models. That said I do have one particular .410 CZ SXS that has lasted very well but as an upland gun is not subjected to the high volume of my primary hunting and clays guns. That said, anybody can be unlucky and get a lemon from any manufacturer or get lucky to pick a cherry piece from the el-cheapo line.

Simply put the lower price/value of these guns correlates directly into lower quality components manufactured from lower grade metals without fine polishing and finishing as compared to middle and upper grade pieces. Nobody in their right mind would compare any sub $1500 gun to something like a Parker or Purdey but comparing them to a Browning, Beretta, Ruger or other there are simply too many differences in fit, finish, quality of components and longevity. Will the cheaper guns shoot? Hell yes. Does a cheaper piece have proper metal to metal or metal to wood fitting and nice engraving/checkering and better grade wood like one of the B's or others? Absolutely not. they aren't trash but very few would classify them as a treasure either.
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Re: Trapshooting and hunting gun.

Postby DuckManClyde » Thu Jun 27, 2013 12:38 pm

Jon Bergren wrote:
Frank Lopez wrote:In an O/U, I'd stay away from the low end guns, especially if high volume shooting is in the mix. As with most guns, there are good ones and bad ones in the same model line. With the lower end stuff, the ration is higher for the clinkers. I would also avoid ANYTHING made in Turkey! Like the Spanish guns of the 70s, they've been enticed by the US dollar and the products they ship here are NOT top level.

If price is a serious consideration, I suggest you visit some gun shops and shoulder as many different Brownings, Berettas, SKBs, etc., to see how they fit you. Once you determine your likes and dislikes, visit the on-line sites and see what's available on the used market. Browning Citoris, Berettas and some others are available for about the cost of the CZ and are far better guns.

Frank


Subjective statements without any data for proof. Ned S


Hes not wrong though, Higher end guns, cost more money. Same with anything in this world. That satement doesnt need "data or Proof" its just common scence. Buying used isnt such a bad idea for a budgeted hunter. Id take a new Beretta silver pigeon over my stoeger any day of the week. But i just dont have that kind of money. I go based on experiance, I dont like H&R and i sure dont like CZs. I havent had a major problem with my poor mans over under yet, so untill she breaks down. I'll still be a huge advocate for the stoeger o/u line of shotguns.
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Re: Trapshooting and hunting gun.

Postby kbooger » Thu Jun 27, 2013 12:40 pm

I have a CZ redhead, I like it a lot. But I also don't shoot it a ton, it is a grouse hunting gun that I occasionally shoot skeet with. CZ makes very good guns for the price.

There are some reliability threads over on shotgunworld forums in the huglu (CZ) section that you might want to check out.
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Re: Trapshooting and hunting gun.

Postby Frank Lopez » Thu Jun 27, 2013 1:46 pm

Jon Bergren wrote:
Frank Lopez wrote:In an O/U, I'd stay away from the low end guns, especially if high volume shooting is in the mix. As with most guns, there are good ones and bad ones in the same model line. With the lower end stuff, the ration is higher for the clinkers. I would also avoid ANYTHING made in Turkey! Like the Spanish guns of the 70s, they've been enticed by the US dollar and the products they ship here are NOT top level.

If price is a serious consideration, I suggest you visit some gun shops and shoulder as many different Brownings, Berettas, SKBs, etc., to see how they fit you. Once you determine your likes and dislikes, visit the on-line sites and see what's available on the used market. Browning Citoris, Berettas and some others are available for about the cost of the CZ and are far better guns.

Frank


Subjective statements without any data for proof. Ned S


Ned, I could pull up the data and post it and embarrass you. But as someone once told me, I'm not your mother! Suffice to say that if you spent as much time on a clays course or skeet range as I have, you'd have seen exactly what I and thousands of others have seen. The break down rate on O/Us is inversely proportional to the MSRP. That's just the way it is. The Spanish make some pretty fine SxS guns, of which I have a few. They are modeled after the English game gun. The English, with whom I'm pretty familiar but do not own one of their fine guns, say that Spanish guns aren't finished, believing them only to be 95% or so. A top Spanish gun is every bit as functional and sturdy as an English gun. The Spanish guns can be had for less than $20k. The Same grade English gun, finished that extra 5%, will set you back at least $100k.

Now, neither of those guns is prone to break down, especially when properly maintained. But the difference between a Browning or a Beretta and a Turkish gun made for a specific price point is measured in light years. As far as the Stoeger offerings, I've personally seen more than one Condor fall apart in the shooter's hands when taking a shot! And on many occasions various other malfunctions. I currently have seven O/Us in my safe. They range from Brownings and Berettas to Franchi, Zabala and Fausti, plus a couple of low end guns that I bought as beaters and loaners. I've been quite fortunate with my guns, experiencing few breakages. But, the few breakages I've had have all been with the low end guns.

Go check with any reputable gunsmith about the repair rates for the low end guns vs the high end stuff before you go shooting your mouth off with stupid statements.

Frank
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Re: Trapshooting and hunting gun.

Postby mawtrfowler » Thu Jun 27, 2013 3:14 pm

If you want it last through a lot of shooting you're looking at Beretta, Browning, Franchi and other top manufacturers. If you don't want to go crazy look at the Franchi's and used guns. I had Condors that saw relatively light use compared to the Franchi and then Citori I used for trap and when i got rid of them the actions were sloppy. My Renaissance and Citori saw four times the rounds through them and stayed tight.
If you want something to beat up or not use a lot then a cheap gun is fine but when you pay cheap you get cheap. If you want something that will last you're better off with a used high end gun or spending a little more up front on a new one for a longer life.
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Re: Trapshooting and hunting gun.

Postby jpari » Thu Jun 27, 2013 3:31 pm

If one is shooting only occasionally and will not be putting any real volume through the gun then I see no reason that a shooter who has a limited budget should not consider the CZ if he/she likes it. However, volume is a horse of a different color. I shoot sporting tournaments and in these games a gun must be reliable beyond question. I have only seen the likes of Beretta, Browning, Caesar Guerini, Kriegoff, Blazer and this ilk in competition. Competition is the proving grounds for durability. However, in comparing the world of O/U shotguns side by side the lower end guns are not even in the same category as the brands that I have listed above, and realistically cannot be compared.
My suggestion to the OP is to shoulder as many O/Us as possible and identify a brand that you like. Then search the used market for a nice one. Off the top of my head, the Beretta Silver Pigeon I is a wonderful gun and can be had used for about the same price as a new CZ. Good luck with your search.
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Re: Trapshooting and hunting gun.

Postby Jon Bergren » Thu Jun 27, 2013 4:21 pm

Frank Lopez wrote:
Jon Bergren wrote:
Frank Lopez wrote:In an O/U, I'd stay away from the low end guns, especially if high volume shooting is in the mix. As with most guns, there are good ones and bad ones in the same model line. With the lower end stuff, the ration is higher for the clinkers. I would also avoid ANYTHING made in Turkey! Like the Spanish guns of the 70s, they've been enticed by the US dollar and the products they ship here are NOT top level.

If price is a serious consideration, I suggest you visit some gun shops and shoulder as many different Brownings, Berettas, SKBs, etc., to see how they fit you. Once you determine your likes and dislikes, visit the on-line sites and see what's available on the used market. Browning Citoris, Berettas and some others are available for about the cost of the CZ and are far better guns.

Frank


Subjective statements without any data for proof. Ned S


Ned, I could pull up the data and post it and embarrass you. But as someone once told me, I'm not your mother! Suffice to say that if you spent as much time on a clays course or skeet range as I have, you'd have seen exactly what I and thousands of others have seen. The break down rate on O/Us is inversely proportional to the MSRP. That's just the way it is. The Spanish make some pretty fine SxS guns, of which I have a few. They are modeled after the English game gun. The English, with whom I'm pretty familiar but do not own one of their fine guns, say that Spanish guns aren't finished, believing them only to be 95% or so. A top Spanish gun is every bit as functional and sturdy as an English gun. The Spanish guns can be had for less than $20k. The Same grade English gun, finished that extra 5%, will set you back at least $100k.

Now, neither of those guns is prone to break down, especially when properly maintained. But the difference between a Browning or a Beretta and a Turkish gun made for a specific price point is measured in light years. As far as the Stoeger offerings, I've personally seen more than one Condor fall apart in the shooter's hands when taking a shot! And on many occasions various other malfunctions. I currently have seven O/Us in my safe. They range from Brownings and Berettas to Franchi, Zabala and Fausti, plus a couple of low end guns that I bought as beaters and loaners. I've been quite fortunate with my guns, experiencing few breakages. But, the few breakages I've had have all been with the low end guns.

Go check with any reputable gunsmith about the repair rates for the low end guns vs the high end stuff before you go shooting your mouth off with stupid statements.

Frank


My friend is a gunsmith and disagrees totally. He is a 98% registered skeet shooter and uses nothing but skeet 1100's. Ned S
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Re: Trapshooting and hunting gun.

Postby Frank Lopez » Thu Jun 27, 2013 4:28 pm

Jon Bergren wrote:My friend is a gunsmith and disagrees totally. He is a 98% registered skeet shooter and uses nothing but skeet 1100's. Ned S


Brilliant! Positively brilliant! We're talking about O/Us. And an 1100 isn't exactly a low end gun. Go ask your "friend" what he thinks of a CZ vs a Browning Citori XS. I got 10 grand on the XS. Put up or shut up.

Frank
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