Versamax or super black eagle II

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Re: Versamax or super black eagle II

Postby Specklebelly » Sun Jul 07, 2013 8:30 pm

If I'm not mistaken the SBE is an inertia operated action
I love how Benelli has made us all think "inertia" is so wonderful. I just wish they wouldn't insult us and call a spade a spade. It is "recoil operated" Mr. Benelli.

Rant over and sorry to hijack.
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Re: Versamax or super black eagle II

Postby gearhead80 » Mon Jul 08, 2013 1:41 pm

POINT 1: Sorry, but to all the people on here whining about a little recoil, go shoot paper with a .22. Maybe you can handle that recoil.. Man up a little for crying out loud, we are talking about duck hunting guns. When shooting at birds who feels anything?? I have yet to see someone shoot at birds and then say "Man my gun just kicked hard!!"

Point 2: Benelli's system is just a proven "work in any condition" system.. That's why people like them. Pull the trigger, they go boom, cycle and go boom again and again and again.

Point 3: I will personally never buy another Remington product again due the terrible machining and crappy materials my newer 870 is made of. Until My brother took it apart and filed down the extractor arm that thing would hardly ever remove shells from the chamber.. So I had a $400 plastic single shot.. Handy!! Not to mention in any moisture the matte black finish turns brown before I could even get it home from a hunting trip in any type of moisture. Real quality crap there!! I know it's a "cheap gun" but really?? Didn't see this from the older ones... I won't even say what I shoot now but it'll never be a newer Remington anything!! I like the newer Brownings (Maxus and A5), the A400 and the SBE2 and the Super Vinci. I have shot all but the new A5 and I would purchase to hunt with any of them.
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Re: Versamax or super black eagle II

Postby cannon » Mon Jul 08, 2013 3:33 pm

gearhead80 wrote:POINT 1: Sorry, but to all the people on here whining about a little recoil, go shoot paper with a .22. Maybe you can handle that recoil.. Man up a little for crying out loud, we are talking about duck hunting guns. When shooting at birds who feels anything?? I have yet to see someone shoot at birds and then say "Man my gun just kicked hard!!"


I tore a rotator cuff in my right shoulder in '07 & ruptured 4 discs in my back in '04. Given the 8 cases of steel shells I run through in an average season, I can flatly say that I notice the recoil. Again, I've got both guns. I prefer the VM. Prefer my Brownings and winchesters to 'nelli's as well.

Whether you feel it or don't, recoil affects your shooting.
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Re: Versamax or super black eagle II

Postby BurninPowder » Mon Jul 08, 2013 5:50 pm

gearhead80 wrote:POINT 1: Sorry, but to all the people on here whining about a little recoil, go shoot paper with a .22. Maybe you can handle that recoil.. Man up a little for crying out loud, we are talking about duck hunting guns. When shooting at birds who feels anything?? I have yet to see someone shoot at birds and then say "Man my gun just kicked hard!!"

Point 2: Benelli's system is just a proven "work in any condition" system.. That's why people like them. Pull the trigger, they go boom, cycle and go boom again and again and again.

Point 3: I will personally never buy another Remington product again due the terrible machining and crappy materials my newer 870 is made of. Until My brother took it apart and filed down the extractor arm that thing would hardly ever remove shells from the chamber.. So I had a $400 plastic single shot.. Handy!! Not to mention in any moisture the matte black finish turns brown before I could even get it home from a hunting trip in any type of moisture. Real quality crap there!! I know it's a "cheap gun" but really?? Didn't see this from the older ones... I won't even say what I shoot now but it'll never be a newer Remington anything!! I like the newer Brownings (Maxus and A5), the A400 and the SBE2 and the Super Vinci. I have shot all but the new A5 and I would purchase to hunt with any of them.


Hey buddy hate you had such a time with your 870. Surely not all your Remington experiences have been this way? Or is that your only experience with Remington? I find that many people that bash Rem have done exactly that... Had one bad experience with an Express 870, which in turn constitutes all Rem guns being crap??? No doubt a MIM extractor on your 870... $15 fix you can do yourself in 5min. Most have never held, much less shot a Wingmaster or an 1100. On a side note if you paid $400 for an Express you got screwed! To buy an Express and expect it to be a Wingmaster is like buying a Stoeger 2000 and expecting it to be an SBE2. Price point is directly reflective of quality in most cases. I have two of the dreaded Express models. One a 1994 model that I paid $150 for in 2004 at a pawn shop and a 1998 youth 20Ga purchased new from Wally World for $259. Both have been flawless with the exception of the 1994 whose stock I changed a few years back due to too many days in the blind. As for the recoil, you are absolutely correct I have never felt "recoil" while hunting. But I do like to practice in the off season... and shooting skeet I do notice "recoil". As much as you say it doesn't, it does affect your shooting especially while practicing. You know what they say.. You play how you practice! Also it is proven fact that follow up shots are hindered by "recoil". Not sure about you but I love shooting a double when the opportunity arises. :grooving: As for Benelli I'm sold on em about as much as you are on Rem, especially for the price. Was sitting in a blind two years ago with my crappy 870 Express, a SBE2 to my left and a Supernova to my right. It's getting that time and the first group is coming in. As my buddy with the SBE calls the shot we all pull up and shoot. Problem is I only hear one other shot in addition to my three. I turn around the SBE is promptly being unloaded and disassembled as the guy with the SN is still trying to remove the first spent hull. My point is everything man made has faults and any of the B guns are no exception. Each should shoot his preference and not bash his neighbors gun. :thumbsup:
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Re: Versamax or super black eagle II

Postby shoveler_shooter » Mon Jul 08, 2013 8:05 pm

Most have never held, much less shot a Wingmaster or an 1100

I'd have to disagree with that, seeing there are so many Wingmasters and 1100s out there. Probably more than almost any combination of 2 models of shotguns from one manufacturer.

Surely not all your Remington experiences have been this way? Or is that your only experience with Remington?

When I buy a product from a company, and have a bad experience, I'd rather not try my luck again with them and risk having to deal with it all over again.
People are referring to the new Remingtons, not the older ones.
One thing I find interesting is that the 2 biggest gun dealers in Tulsa will not sell new Remingtons and do not offer warranty repair, while they sell all the B guns and offer warranty repair on most of them.
Hmm....

That said, there has been positive reviews on the Versamax lately and it appears they have worked out the kinks.
Although if I had to buy a new pump, an 870 Express would no doubt be last on the list of options.
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Re: Versamax or super black eagle II

Postby BurninPowder » Tue Jul 09, 2013 4:49 am

Let me clarify SS. The intention of my statement was, that many who go around saying all Rem guns are crap have never held or shot an 1100 or a WM. In many cases these chumps are still wet behind the ears. Their experience with shotguns consists of buying and express (on a whim cause they wanna go duck hunting) having a bad experience, then begging mommy and daddy to go buy them a Benelli b/c thats the only gun you can shoot ducks with. :no: Just something I've noticed...This may NOT be the case with gearhead IDK. Thats why I posed it as a question, not an assumption. As far as bad experiences I've had em, trust me! Mossberg and Stoeger come to mind quickly. But I don't go around testifying that all they make is crap. And I wont say that I'll never buy one again. It all depends on what kinda deal I can get, how good they review, how they shoot (if I get the chance to try one), and what it feels like in hand. I just try not to be too close minded about these things...
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Re: Versamax or super black eagle II

Postby shoveler_shooter » Tue Jul 09, 2013 4:26 pm

BurninPowder wrote:The intention of my statement was, that many who go around saying all Rem guns are crap have never held or shot an 1100 or a WM. In many cases these chumps are still wet behind the ears. Their experience with shotguns consists of buying and express (on a whim cause they wanna go duck hunting) having a bad experience, then begging mommy and daddy to go buy them a Benelli b/c thats the only gun you can shoot ducks with.

:huh:
Of all the comments on this site that have generalized an age group, that's definitely a new one. :lol3:
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Re: Versamax or super black eagle II

Postby gearhead80 » Wed Jul 10, 2013 4:48 am

BurninPowder wrote:Let me clarify SS. The intention of my statement was, that many who go around saying all Rem guns are crap have never held or shot an 1100 or a WM. In many cases these chumps are still wet behind the ears. Their experience with shotguns consists of buying and express (on a whim cause they wanna go duck hunting) having a bad experience, then begging mommy and daddy to go buy them a Benelli b/c thats the only gun you can shoot ducks with. :no: Just something I've noticed...This may NOT be the case with gearhead IDK. Thats why I posed it as a question, not an assumption. As far as bad experiences I've had em, trust me! Mossberg and Stoeger come to mind quickly. But I don't go around testifying that all they make is crap. And I wont say that I'll never buy one again. It all depends on what kinda deal I can get, how good they review, how they shoot (if I get the chance to try one), and what it feels like in hand. I just try not to be too close minded about these things...


Well, if you read my post entirely you would see I stated that you didn't see this stuff from the older ones. Also, pretty mature with the internt forum name calling!! First off,Well, I grew up shooting my dads 1100. Great gun, from 1975. Wingmasters are great guns. Once again, from the 60's, 70's and 80's. So when I got out on my own, I bought the remington I could afford at the time to get back in the sport after 10 years away from it. So yes I bought one, had a bad experience, so no I won't buy a Remington. Sorry you have a man-crush on Remington, but I truly believe their overall quality has lacked over the past several years. The reason I went with the gun I have it that my cousin has the same basic gun that he has hunted with for 6-8 hard years, put around 8,000 basically trouble free rounds through it. You're right, you do get what you pay for, that goes with anything. My wife wanted her 1st shotgun last year, I told to find a used 1100 from the 70's, she did and bought it. Great gun once again because it's an old one. I have a gun cabinet full of different guns and brands from my grandfathers 1965 Belgium made A5 to that 870 to my step-sons youth Mossberg to others. SO.. If you read my post and made it to the bottom, you will have read that I have shot all kinds of guns, I would love to shoot a Versa-max, but none of my friends can talk themselves into buying one. That's the review newer Remingtons have around here. Sorry if that upsets you, but maybe you should just move on and not let a forum post get you so worked up :no: .. So
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Re: Versamax or super black eagle II

Postby BurninPowder » Wed Jul 10, 2013 5:18 am

BurninPowder wrote:This may NOT be the case with gearhead IDK. Thats why I posed it as a question, not an assumption.


I'm not worked up at all here... Just speaking my mind and sharing my experiences. As for the name calling, I like to call things as I see em. I'm not here to make friends (I have plenty) or enemies. But I will correct misinformation when I can. Obviously none of those names apply to you so no need to get offended...Right?
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Re: Versamax or super black eagle II

Postby waterfowlhunter » Wed Jul 10, 2013 5:47 am

BurninPowder wrote:The intention of my statement was, that many who go around saying all Rem guns are crap have never held or shot an 1100 or a WM. In many cases these chumps are still wet behind the ears. Their experience with shotguns consists of buying and express (on a whim cause they wanna go duck hunting) having a bad experience, then begging mommy and daddy to go buy them a Benelli b/c thats the only gun you can shoot ducks with.


Just the opposite it true in my experience as a dealer and gunsmith. I see 40+yo hunters that have old worn out 1100's and want to "upgrade" then they find out that their new 1187 or 870 is a POS and requires trips back to Remington for repairs or trips to the gunsmith for constant FTF or FTE issues. This is all on top of the RUST issues with the sportsman and express versions. Why would you call something a sportsman and then not give it a finish that can take the elements a sportsman is likely to encounter :huh:

I have had premier versions and they were trouble free for the most part but most hunters do not buy the "premier" to throw in the boat or duck blind.

The younger generation of hunters do their research first then buy the gun they can afford that seems to have the least amount of complaints. I see new hunters all the time posting on here with the question "which gun" and Remington always seems to get the most negative replies( for their Current express / sportsman products ).
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Re: Versamax or super black eagle II

Postby waterfowlhunter » Wed Jul 10, 2013 5:52 am

Specklebelly wrote:
If I'm not mistaken the SBE is an inertia operated action
I love how Benelli has made us all think "inertia" is so wonderful. I just wish they wouldn't insult us and call a spade a spade. It is "recoil operated" Mr. Benelli.

Rant over and sorry to hijack.



Actually there is a difference. in very basic terms with recoil operation such as an auto-5 the recoil of the shot leaving the barrel actually cycles the action. In an inertia gun the recoil only compresses a spring. when this spring decompresses it applies a very short but quick push on the bolt. The weight of the bolt traveling rearward (inertia) keeps it moving to cycle the action.
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Re: Versamax or super black eagle II

Postby Specklebelly » Wed Jul 10, 2013 7:35 am

waterfowlhunter wrote:
Specklebelly wrote:
If I'm not mistaken the SBE is an inertia operated action
I love how Benelli has made us all think "inertia" is so wonderful. I just wish they wouldn't insult us and call a spade a spade. It is "recoil operated" Mr. Benelli.

Rant over and sorry to hijack.



Actually there is a difference. in very basic terms with recoil operation such as an auto-5 the recoil of the shot leaving the barrel actually cycles the action. In an inertia gun the recoil only compresses a spring. when this spring decompresses it applies a very short but quick push on the bolt. The weight of the bolt traveling rearward (inertia) keeps it moving to cycle the action.

Interesting. I did not know that and thanks for the info.
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Re: Versamax or super black eagle II

Postby gearhead80 » Wed Jul 10, 2013 8:28 am

BurninPowder wrote:
BurninPowder wrote:This may NOT be the case with gearhead IDK. Thats why I posed it as a question, not an assumption.


I'm not worked up at all here... Just speaking my mind and sharing my experiences. As for the name calling, I like to call things as I see em. I'm not here to make friends (I have plenty) or enemies. But I will correct misinformation when I can. Obviously none of those names apply to you so no need to get offended...Right?


HA.. Trust me I'm the last person to get offended. I didn't put the caps lock on for any of it.. :beer:
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Re: Versamax or super black eagle II

Postby lostknife4 » Wed Jul 10, 2013 12:14 pm

Back in Jan 2010 there was quite a discussion on this action type thing under the heading "RE: Inertia Driven Semi Auto Suggestions???" viewtopic.php?f=13&t=114181#p870850
and ohsay referenced the following article written by Randy Wakeman ,
http://www.chuckhawks.com/autoloading_s ... ctions.htm (chuckhawks.com/autoloading_shotgun_actions)
this same article appears relevant to the previous discussions here.
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Re: Versamax or super black eagle II

Postby BurninPowder » Thu Jul 11, 2013 4:33 am

waterfowlhunter, With all your experience and knowledge, what is your opinion on the current quality and viability of design of the VM since that is the gun of topic posted by the OP?
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Re: Versamax or super black eagle II

Postby BurninPowder » Thu Jul 11, 2013 4:39 am

Also LostKnife I had some trouble with your link is there any other way I can find that particular read? I've had my rounds with Randy but I respect and value his opinion. He's a smart man with years of experience on the bench and afield, hard to argue with either, especially in the capacity of his success! Thanks.
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Re: Versamax or super black eagle II

Postby lostknife4 » Thu Jul 11, 2013 4:45 am

BurninPowder wrote:Also LostKnife I had some trouble with your link is there any other way I can find that particular read? I've had my rounds with Randy but I respect and value his opinion. He's a smart man with years of experience on the bench and afield, hard to argue with either, especially in the capacity of his success! Thanks.


That's the link I have that came from the posting listed. I have a hard copy of that link and get the same result as you do when trying to open it so my only suggestion is to google Randy Wakeman and see if it comes up. Sorry for the blind link.
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Re: Versamax or super black eagle II

Postby waterfowlhunter » Thu Jul 11, 2013 4:51 am

BurninPowder wrote:waterfowlhunter, With all your experience and knowledge, what is your opinion on the current quality and viability of design of the VM since that is the gun of topic posted by the OP?



If you were reading along you would have already seen what I posted about the Versamax on page one. :thumbsup:
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Re: Versamax or super black eagle II

Postby BurninPowder » Thu Jul 11, 2013 5:11 am

I read your initial posts. Was just looking for a more direct answer. Sorry, didn't intend to pry.
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Re: Versamax or super black eagle II

Postby waterfowlhunter » Thu Jul 11, 2013 5:48 am

BurninPowder wrote:I read your initial posts. Was just looking for a more direct answer. Sorry, didn't intend to pry.


I can not post a further opinion until I have hunted with one and put a couple thousand rounds thru it. Testing from the bench alone does not give me enough information to know if one will satisfy me in my hunting environments. :beer:
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Re: Versamax or super black eagle II

Postby gearhead80 » Thu Jul 11, 2013 4:51 pm

So now with all this being said, technically the better choice for ColeW based on the facts given would be the SBE2 then correct? Only due to the fact that the VM has not yet been proven to be as good or better then the SBE2. Due to the fact it has not been around nearly as long so no one has used one as much. Obviously buying either could give him possible issues down the road because anything could happen since they are what they are.
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Re: Versamax or super black eagle II

Postby waterfowlhunter » Thu Jul 11, 2013 6:26 pm

He should just buy any gun that starts with a "B" and be done with it. Everyone know they are the best :umm:
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Re: Versamax or super black eagle II

Postby BurninPowder » Thu Jul 11, 2013 8:03 pm

waterfowlhunter wrote:
BurninPowder wrote:I read your initial posts. Was just looking for a more direct answer. Sorry, didn't intend to pry.


I can not post a further opinion until I have hunted with one and put a couple thousand rounds thru it. Testing from the bench alone does not give me enough information to know if one will satisfy me in my hunting environments. :beer:


:thumbsup: Gotcha, I understand 100%. A bench can only give you so much. That's the reason I've been so opinionated on this particular thread. I have plenty of "in the field" experience with both of the originally mentioned models and was simply sharing my experiences. In the process I was roped in to the bashing contest, in an attempt to assert especially my "in the field" findings. How this got turned into a bash the Remington defendant I'm not sure. I'm encouraged that your experiences with younger sportsman have been far better than mine. I just get kinda down when, I get back to the local boat landing to find a bunch of young fellas, with their brand new Benellis, a brand new Gator Trax, 2 dozen mojos, and trucks that you need a ladder to get into, talkin about all the birds they saw and "shot at" but have none in the boat. Or how these guys were set up in "their spot" so they had to set up right beside em and sky bust birds all morning because those guys wouldn't quit calling "their birds"?. In these instances I occasionally get questioned on my success... If I reveal any bagged game, I am almost always immediately drilled on the location of my hunt. Not can I come with you sometime or would you mind takin me sometime or can I help you scout sometime. When I don't quickly reply or reveal the location, I usually get a tatter of smart remarks and have been cussed. Just disheartening, that's all... I'm done. :beer:
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Re: Versamax or super black eagle II

Postby BurninPowder » Thu Jul 11, 2013 8:13 pm

waterfowlhunter wrote:He should just buy any gun that starts with a "B" and be done with it. Everyone know they are the best :umm:

:biggrin: I'm still here! FWIW my favorite hunting buddy will hunt with nothing other than a... you guessed it! Benelli. I have many hours logged on that particular gun. We will occasionally do the (in the blind "gun swap") to keep things interesting.
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Re: Versamax or super black eagle II

Postby gearhead80 » Thu Jul 11, 2013 9:30 pm

I just get kinda down when, I get back to the local boat landing to find a bunch of young fellas, with their brand new Benellis, a brand new Gator Trax, 2 dozen mojos, and trucks that you need a ladder to get into, talkin about all the birds they saw and "shot at" but have none in the boat. Or how these guys were set up in "their spot" so they had to set up right beside em and sky bust birds all morning because those guys wouldn't quit calling "their birds"?. In these instances I occasionally get questioned on my success... If I reveal any bagged game, I am almost always immediately drilled on the location of my hunt.


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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