Trap Guns, are they really worth it?

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Re: Trap Guns, are they really worth it?

Postby 3200 man » Thu May 15, 2014 4:17 pm

In the sport of trap shooting , there are 3 top performers that Champions shoot ( Perazzi , Ljutic and Krieghoff )
this is not to say Beretta , Brownings or Remingtons haven't been there as well . As we all know , He or She who shoots well
with a ( gods Gift natural ability of eye / hand coordination ) can shoot just about any gun ! We are talking about Winners ,
people who are on the top of their game , 98% of the time . One look at the Grand American Shoot finals , kind of explains
this but , as you will also see there are exceptions to the rule ?
Real Trap shooters , the folks that shoot close to 25,000 plus targets a year need a gun that's reliable , one that can handle
that many shells and is a comfort to shoot , with weight and fit . These guns are built to function as well as one to show off
( for some ) with inlays , engraving , beautiful woods and deep bluing to catch ones eye... but , they are expensive ( about
the price of a good old farmall tractor ) !

Gas guns like the Beretta 390's , the sky is the limit what you can do to them as more and more seem to be used for Trap ,
Big and Small shooters shooting them with all the comforts of less recoil , fit and all the bells and whistles you can think of ,
these are painted in wild colors / designs so they can be looked at by everyone ( saying look at me ) ! And , with a track
record of reliability , sure parts need to be cleaned and changed but trap shooters are putting thousands of rounds through
them and they keep on ticking ...... :yes:

16 yd targets are for fun and when a shooter decides he or she is capable to compete in Handicap targets , this is when
things get serious , as you pay your money and hope for a good day with confidence , your're shooting a real Trap Gun !
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Re: Trap Guns, are they really worth it?

Postby R. Chapman » Fri May 16, 2014 10:50 am

cannon wrote:Alright then, trap shooting aficionados who are certain that only a "real" trap gun will do for anyone who could ever hope to be a contender on the line: what is the right trap gun? And don't hand me any "the one that fits" crap, either -- if you have two functional arms, any gun can be modified to fit properly. I've heard that one must not use a "hunting" gun for trap if he or she is serious about the sport (FWIW, I suspect that Tim Bradley & Knapp, we're he alive, would both disagree). Nonetheless, the experts have spoken. So, Educate me. What qualifies a firearm as an appropriate trap gun? Suspension bridge sights? Fat stock? Well figured furniture? Price tag in excess of $15,000? Release trigger? Ported barrel? Flames painted on the side? Lengthened forcing cones? Back-boring?

If it's longevity, a $700 BT-99 will get me to the end of my life. If it's pattern performance it's a crap shoot, especially when trying to fine tune 2 barrels that are designed to shoot at different trajectories. If it's fit, I can have ANY gun modified to fit any way I want it. If it's porting, I can't see the utility in it. If it's light recoil, there's no sense in shooting some high-dollar unsingle. Make me understand what brand of dedicated trap gun is the right one, and why. Thus far, my exposure to competitive trap is limited to the the school team my daughter shoots on, but if high dollar guns make you a better shooter, these kids are clearly retarded.

I'm open to debate on the subject, as my daughter is new to competing, and I'll certainly do what's necessary to advance her if she decides that she's serious about it (she's only 13). On the other hand, I watched her shoot next to a 16 year old kid who was sporting a Perazzi. He shot a 10. She shot a 22 with a stock Browning Silver Hunter. The girl on her other side shot a perfect round with a Maxus. The other two on the line were sporting doubles. One I could readily identify as a 725 trap, but the other I wasn't sure about. They both shot in the teens. They obviously missed the memo.

What are the top 3 winningest guns in the sport of trap, both in a contemporary setting and in terms of historical performance over the last 30 years? Is there any consensus among those of you who claim expertise as to what the top 10 guns in the sport are? Other than an adjustable stock and possibly an elevated rib, what is the difference between an 1187 premier and an 1187 Trap? 391 and 391 trap?

Like I said, educate me.

Every gun is different to one person. I have 3 "trap" guns. My main being a Perazzi TMS while the other 2 are 870 hybrid traps. I have shot a lot of different trap guns ranging from K80s to MX 15s to KX5s to Blasers and so on. In my opinion, it depends on your style of shooting. I have all three of my guns set up to shoot anywhere from 90/10 to 110/0 and they handle faster than most trap guns because they are very light in the front. I literally shoot pigeons right out of the house. On a bad/slow day they don't get more more than 25-30 feet out of the house, where on a good day, no more than 15-20 feet out of the house, not yards, feet. It's just my style of shooting and it works very well for me. It's hard to determine the gun most of the big dogs used. Leo Harrison III used to shoot 1100s before all of them got stolen and he went to Beretta and shot the DT-10 before he passed away last year. Nora Ross shoots a Perazzi MX-15 I believe, Phil Kiner shoots a K-80, as does Harlan Campbell Jr. Britt Robinson when he had great eye sight shot a Lujtic of some sort. Ray Stafford shoots a Perazzi I believe. It's all on what works for your style of shooting. The difference between those two automatics you listed will most likely be a significant difference in down pitch and drop oat the comb and the heel. Take it for what it's worth; that's my $0.02s.
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Re: Trap Guns, are they really worth it?

Postby Duckcommander727 » Fri May 16, 2014 1:11 pm

Shoot a mossberg.

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Re: Trap Guns, are they really worth it?

Postby 3200 man » Fri May 16, 2014 3:43 pm

Cannon

This early in your daughters trap shooting career , more important than a fancy Trap gun , would be , really good shooting glasses
and Ear Protection . These two items will insure she stays at the top of her game and not be distracted by others shooting .
From what I've seen so far , she'll need to maintain these 2 senses , being the ( Duck Hunting Chic from Arkansas ) as she walks
up to the podium after winning her class in trap shooting , with her Browning silver ! :clapping:
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Re: Trap Guns, are they really worth it?

Postby cannon » Sat May 17, 2014 4:45 pm

Well, she competed in her first event yesterday and scored 21/25, with a 15 mph tailwind. I thought it was pretty respectable, given that it was her first time on a real course at the age of 13. She had a couple on her team that scored 12 & 13, and her team score of 90 was short of the cut-off for qualifying oft the state tournament by 3 targets.
Smell that? Smells like sumthin died in here.
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Re: Trap Guns, are they really worth it?

Postby 3200 man » Sat May 17, 2014 6:18 pm

Well , being she's a gamer and a good shot....she will be thinking ( if I only ran that trap ) our team would have been in ?
This is a good thing , stepping up to the plate when you need to , is what trap shooting is all about ! No Choking , one target
at a time , same focus on the first target of a hundred as you shoot the last one , even tho the 25 th target should be easier
because , you've already practiced on the front 21 . :yes:
At 13yrs old , it sounds like she knows what she has to do to break the target ( it's all mechanics ) good foot placement ,
head down on the stock , hard focus on the leading edge and a nice smooth move to the front of the target and follow through .
Eyes first ( see the line ) , the gun will follow as you rotate your hips ,ahhh , broken target every time !

With a goal of shooting a better score than she has shot before , she's a winner , and it won't take long before She's called
A Big Dog ! :thumbsup:
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Re: Trap Guns, are they really worth it?

Postby War Wagon » Sat May 17, 2014 6:37 pm

Cannon, It's some of the little thing in life you and her will remember :yes:
Please keep us updated on how she is doing.
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Re: Trap Guns, are they really worth it?

Postby R. Chapman » Sun May 18, 2014 1:25 pm

Certainly did better than I did when I shot my first tournament (41/100) in singles. With time and practice she'll be averaging over 95 in singles if she stays constistent with everything. Good for you and her! :beer: :clapping:
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Re: Trap Guns, are they really worth it?

Postby DuckManClyde » Sun May 18, 2014 1:59 pm

Tomorrow is the last day of our 8 week season. Last week was with dads franchi i12. (Shorter stock, fits better.) And came out with 19&20/25. Which is good for me at least. To the OP- i know a guy who can break 24 and 25 regularly. And the kid shoots an 870. That last pigeon or two is in the head not the gun.
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Re: Trap Guns, are they really worth it?

Postby mudpack » Sun May 18, 2014 2:22 pm

R. Chapman wrote:[I have all three of my guns set up to shoot anywhere from 90/10 to 110/0 and ...

I can see a gun that puts 90% of its pattern above point of aim (POA), but one that puts 110% of it pattern above POA....?? :huh:
Must be a typo, eh?
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Re: Trap Guns, are they really worth it?

Postby 3200 man » Sun May 18, 2014 8:47 pm

Shooting a shotgun that's 100 % high or low has an effect on consistency , unless you're just a 16 yd shooter !
Fellas shoot that high of POI , usually are holding to high of gun and the ones with such a low POI are holding to
low of gun . They usually have the same average , NOT GOOD and when you get to hunt with them , it's fun
shooting most of their birds ! :yes:
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Re: Trap Guns, are they really worth it?

Postby R. Chapman » Mon May 19, 2014 11:23 pm

Nope. There are guys that have their pattern striking 120/0-130/0. Not a typo.


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Re: Trap Guns, are they really worth it?

Postby 3200 man » Tue May 20, 2014 5:58 am

There's a big difference in one shooting 15" high with a full choke at 32 yds , at 16 yd targets ?
Than , one shooting from the fence ( 27 yds ) !
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Re: Trap Guns, are they really worth it?

Postby mudpack » Tue May 20, 2014 7:22 am

R. Chapman wrote:Nope. There are guys that have their pattern striking 120/0-130/0. Not a typo.


:huh: Okay, tell me how you can have 120% of a pattern. Please.
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Re: Trap Guns, are they really worth it?

Postby 3200 man » Tue May 20, 2014 12:02 pm

To high of a shooting shotgun ( 70/30 or more ) is not good for someone that CANTS the gun ! :huh: :thumbsup:
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Re: Trap Guns, are they really worth it?

Postby R. Chapman » Tue May 20, 2014 1:24 pm

mudpack wrote:
R. Chapman wrote:Nope. There are guys that have their pattern striking 120/0-130/0. Not a typo.


:huh: Okay, tell me how you can have 120% of a pattern. Please.

Pattern height is what I'm referring to. They way I was told was above and below the front bead when you have the gun mounted. So like a 70/30 shooting gun will have 70% of the pattern above the bead, 30% below. So when I say my Perazzi shoots 110/0 high, the pattern strikes 10% higher above the bead meaning there is a gap of about %10 between the bead when mount and the pattern. If that makes sense. The only reason I shoot such a high pattern is that bird is coming out of the house and being crushed in such a shot distance from the house that I literally make a very quick nudge and poof. I tried to explain it to the best of my ability anyways.
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Re: Trap Guns, are they really worth it?

Postby 3200 man » Tue May 20, 2014 5:57 pm

You are on the right track Chapman .

With both beads lined up , looking down the rib the back bead is covering the front bead , from there as you elevate
your eye so more of the front bead is showing , until there's a gap between the back bead and the front , the pattern moves up
inline with the center of the bore ( hopefully ) . POI height is determined by how much percentage of the pattern is above
line of site ( 60/40 , 70/30 , 90/10 ect: ) . That is center of the bore to center of the pattern ! Now , this is regulated
for shorter distance shooting , because if you cant the gun at all , the shot doesn't travel to center of where you are aiming ,
this is magnified as the distance gets greater and on a angled target . Spot shooters , ones that try to hold high guns and
trap the target do fairly well ( at times ) using this method but , let the wind blow , and the targets being blown up or down ?

Well lets just say , it wasn't their day :yes:

Hand a Waterfowler a gun that shoots higher than 60/40 , and have a good laugh ! :lol3:
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Re: Trap Guns, are they really worth it?

Postby R. Chapman » Tue May 20, 2014 10:55 pm

3200 man wrote:You are on the right track Chapman .

With both beads lined up , looking down the rib the back bead is covering the front bead , from there as you elevate
your eye so more of the front bead is showing , until there's a gap between the back bead and the front , the pattern moves up
inline with the center of the bore ( hopefully ) . POI height is determined by how much percentage of the pattern is above
line of site ( 60/40 , 70/30 , 90/10 ect: ) . That is center of the bore to center of the pattern ! Now , this is regulated
for shorter distance shooting , because if you cant the gun at all , the shot doesn't travel to center of where you are aiming ,
this is magnified as the distance gets greater and on a angled target . Spot shooters , ones that try to hold high guns and
trap the target do fairly well ( at times ) using this method but , let the wind blow , and the targets being blown up or down ?

Well lets just say , it wasn't their day :yes:

Hand a Waterfowler a gun that shoots higher than 60/40 , and have a good laugh ! :lol3:

Good thing I don't cant. I like a high shooting gun but it also suites well to my style. I'm impatient! :eek: I like shooting them out of the house, but I do question whether I will be able to do it as my eyes (and body) get older. Might as well take advantage of it now. :beer:
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Re: Trap Guns, are they really worth it?

Postby 3200 man » Wed May 21, 2014 7:21 am

:thumbsup: You must be very fast shooting 16 yds targets , I see a few fast shooters here on the west coast to .

Thinking when a target leaves the arm of the trap and travels 15 to 20 feet and then turns to dust in the air , it's impressive ,
but , it takes control of the gun to do it . Most 16 yd shooters shoot targets 28 to 32 yds from the line , with shooting them
at 21/22 yds , takes a very quick move and very good eyes to determine the angle of the target and if you're shooting
anything but a skeet choke , you would have a pattern the size of a basketball or smaller . This is great if you can do it but ,
most top shooters shoot a Mod ( .020 ) choke for 16 yd targets or they just shoot their handicap barrel which is full or X full
for singles so , by shooting targets at 21/22 yds , the pattern would be the size of a soccer ball , not good for competition
targets when at 28 to 32 yds the pattern would be more forgiving even with 7/8 oz loads . Thank goodness you have the
ability to not CANT the gun when you make your move , with a gun set-up to shoot 110 % high , just a few degrees off center
of the vertical line with a 12/13" pattern , could cause you to miss the target ? :eek:

I always thought Texans liked Big things , you must be one of the few ? :yes:

good Shooting :beer:
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Re: Trap Guns, are they really worth it?

Postby R. Chapman » Wed May 21, 2014 8:47 pm

3200 man wrote::thumbsup: You must be very fast shooting 16 yds targets , I see a few fast shooters here on the west coast to .

Thinking when a target leaves the arm of the trap and travels 15 to 20 feet and then turns to dust in the air , it's impressive ,
but , it takes control of the gun to do it . Most 16 yd shooters shoot targets 28 to 32 yds from the line , with shooting them
at 21/22 yds , takes a very quick move and very good eyes to determine the angle of the target and if you're shooting
anything but a skeet choke , you would have a pattern the size of a basketball or smaller . This is great if you can do it but ,
most top shooters shoot a Mod ( .020 ) choke for 16 yd targets or they just shoot their handicap barrel which is full or X full
for singles so , by shooting targets at 21/22 yds , the pattern would be the size of a soccer ball , not good for competition
targets when at 28 to 32 yds the pattern would be more forgiving even with 7/8 oz loads . Thank goodness you have the
ability to not CANT the gun when you make your move , with a gun set-up to shoot 110 % high , just a few degrees off center
of the vertical line with a 12/13" pattern , could cause you to miss the target ? :eek:

I always thought Texans liked Big things , you must be one of the few ? :yes:

good Shooting :beer:

I used to be on the 26 yard line until something happened in the ATA data system that it somehow lost my yardage and all my handicap scores; they were never able to get back that data but it doesn't bother me much at all. It's a good challenge to see if I can make it back to were I was before. Never was much of a singles shooter. I'm decent at it but it bores the hell out of me. And at the big shoots, you have to run them all and then you'll end up in a shoot off with 40 other people that last 3 hours. Handicap really tests your hand-eye coordination and judgement especially on days that you'd rather not shoot. Windy days definitely separate the the good shooters from the average. I remember winning a handicap championship at the Butte Super Handicap cap on a day with 30 MPH winds. While everyone was hitting in the 160-170 range out of 200, I had a little bit of luck on my side and puffed out 195/200. Got a yard and a half and moved to the 26 yard line. It's all fun for me though.
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Re: Trap Guns, are they really worth it?

Postby 3200 man » Thu May 22, 2014 6:59 am

I'm with you there , if it wasn't fun after 45 yrs of competing , I surely won't do it ! I don't shoot a lot of registered targets
any more but , I do love Games targets ( Annies, Longshot ) ,with invites up and down the state , along with Sporting Clays
shoots , I'm happy to compete . I do win my share of money in these shoots as , with registered targets , there is no money
to be made any longer , like the past ! I also know what Good and Bad days are like , along with the drive homes , Thinking ! :no:

Good Shooting
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Re: Trap Guns, are they really worth it?

Postby DuckManClyde » Thu May 22, 2014 3:05 pm

Last competition today guys wish me luck!
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Re: Trap Guns, are they really worth it?

Postby KRB » Thu May 22, 2014 3:38 pm

Good Luck Clyde, mix in some sporting clays, it will make you a better overall shooter. :thumbsup:
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Re: Trap Guns, are they really worth it?

Postby DuckManClyde » Thu May 22, 2014 4:41 pm

19....
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Re: Trap Guns, are they really worth it?

Postby R. Chapman » Thu May 22, 2014 8:15 pm

3200 man wrote:I'm with you there , if it wasn't fun after 45 yrs of competing , I surely won't do it ! I don't shoot a lot of registered targets
any more but , I do love Games targets ( Annies, Longshot ) ,with invites up and down the state , along with Sporting Clays
shoots , I'm happy to compete . I do win my share of money in these shoots as , with registered targets , there is no money
to be made any longer , like the past ! I also know what Good and Bad days are like , along with the drive homes , Thinking ! :no:

Good Shooting

If you hit some of the jack pots, there is a lot of money to win in handicap. There is nothing in Singles and Doubles. Biggest pot I won was over $1500. :beer:
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