Inertia vs. Gas

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Re: Inertia vs. Gas

Postby 3200 man » Thu May 29, 2014 6:49 pm

The way I see it is , if someone doesn't stir the pot once in a while on the forum , there's not much to talk about ?

Other than paying more for something cheaper ? What can you say about that ? Better or worst tell us why ? :huh:

My view is , I got'em ! :yes:
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Re: Inertia vs. Gas

Postby KRB » Thu May 29, 2014 6:56 pm

I was just kidding. I love my dad's old 1919 model 12. :thumbsup:
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Re: Inertia vs. Gas

Postby Rick Hall » Fri May 30, 2014 5:54 am

I'm a model 12 fan, too. But I wasn't kidding, not even in the sterile confines of a range and firing light rounds, instead of how and with what waterfowl guns are used. But it's neat that you're using those 12s, and they're not just sitting in a safe being "classics".
If you think I'm wrong, you might be right.
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Re: Inertia vs. Gas

Postby z51 » Fri May 30, 2014 7:46 am

Sounds like someone has not owned and shot a SX-1 for almost 30 years like I have. (Won't say who).
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Re: Inertia vs. Gas

Postby 3200 man » Fri May 30, 2014 8:51 am

X51

Yep , When you have pumped a shotgun for 50 years it's not a problem and when it's a good shotgun , they last forever !
Even though , I have modified some to shoot steel better , than most autos , with using all the pressure the shell has to
Offer ! More Efficient ? Yep
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Re: Inertia vs. Gas

Postby z51 » Fri May 30, 2014 9:11 am

So you think you lose a meaningful amount of power in a gas auto. How much do I lose? How much farther can I expect to kill a duck if I go back to my old 870. Is there a chart somewhere I can refer to on this subject?

BTW, you did notice the title of this thread didn't you? :rolleyes:
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Re: Inertia vs. Gas

Postby 3200 man » Fri May 30, 2014 10:46 am

I am Sorry to the OP

It all depends on whether you can shoot straight or not but , wasting gas pressure to soften recoil , does have its effects
on efficiency and YOU don't have to worry about springs failing , :yes: LMAO

How much farther , well , I don't know but reloading less powder for the same velocity , says something ? Right ? :yes:
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Re: Inertia vs. Gas

Postby copterdoc » Fri May 30, 2014 11:18 am

3200 man wrote:X51

Yep , When you have pumped a shotgun for 50 years it's not a problem and when it's a good shotgun , they last forever !
Even though , I have modified some to shoot steel better , than most autos , with using all the pressure the shell has to
Offer ! More Efficient ? Yep
Autos don't kick less because they are wasting available pressure and gasses.

They kick less, because the mass weight of the bolt and action components are being thrust rearward during the period of time that the expanding gasses leaving the barrel are thrusting the gun back into the shooter's shoulder.

As the bolt/action is thrust open, Physics says that it's accelerating mass also has to be pulling the rest of the gun forward simultaneously.

And once the wad has left the barrel, it's all wasted pressure.
Whether it goes out the end of the barrel to serve as recoil producing thrust, or is bled into the gas system to cycle the action.
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Re: Inertia vs. Gas

Postby 3200 man » Fri May 30, 2014 11:32 am

Dang that sounds good !
So why have a stock spring , then ?
So , why does my Maxus with a sealed piston have a lower SD than when it had a spring ? :huh:
Is a gas gun better than a spring gun or is a OLD Standard pump or break-open better than both of them ?

AS all 3 , kill Ducks just fine if you know how to shoot !
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Re: Inertia vs. Gas

Postby z51 » Fri May 30, 2014 11:41 am

A gas SA mainly lessens perceived (felt) recoil because rearward thrust (motion) is spread over a longer time period (ballistic moment). All this has no measurable effect on power/ killing range given that all other physical factors are identical. ie. gun weight, bore structure, chamber diameter, load, barrel length, (if short), etc.

The ejecta is at or near full attainable velocity by the time the tiny amount of gas is bled off in a gas gun. Any fixed breech guns advantage is largely imaginary.
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Re: Inertia vs. Gas

Postby copterdoc » Fri May 30, 2014 11:43 am

3200 man wrote: So why have a stock spring , then ?
To close the bolt for the next loud bang.

Why have a hammer spring?
Why have a magazine spring?

3200 man wrote:....So , why does my Maxus with a sealed piston have a lower SD than when it had a spring ? :huh:
A lower what?

3200 man wrote:...Is a gas gun better than a spring gun or is a OLD Standard pump or break-open better than both of them ?
Gas-guns are better at reducing recoil than either other option. Not just felt recoil, but actual real life recoil.

3200 man wrote:...AS all 3 , kill Ducks just fine if you know how to shoot !
Having a well developed flinch and detached retinas, certainly has a negative effect on your ability to kill ducks.
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Re: Inertia vs. Gas

Postby 3200 man » Fri May 30, 2014 3:02 pm

I'm sure the OP's thankful for all this info and making a wise decision ! ref: add weight

If longevity is what he''s looking for , well , what can I say .
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Re: Inertia vs. Gas

Postby z51 » Fri May 30, 2014 5:18 pm

3200 man wrote:I'm sure the OP's thankful for all this info and making a wise decision ! ref: add weight

If longevity is what he''s looking for , well , what can I say .


I'm sure he wasn't looking for people drinking and making stuff up. :help:
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Re: Inertia vs. Gas

Postby 3200 man » Sat May 31, 2014 7:23 am

I do drink my share but I don't shoot 3 1/2" ammo so , I don't need springs or pistons to reduce recoil even in my 10 ga !

With a little more experience your credibility would be useful but , looking at the records Mod 12 were made with has

a lot to say how good they are and most are still shooting today . Debating whether autos are better , you're going to

have to wait another 50 years ......to make that statement , in my eyes ! :thumbsup:
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Re: Inertia vs. Gas

Postby copterdoc » Sat May 31, 2014 11:23 am

You clearly don't understand how a semi-auto shotgun reduces recoil. It isn't the springs and/or pistons that reduce the recoil.
It is the operation of the action as it cycles, that reduces the recoil.

The springs in the bypass valve(s) control how much gas pressure reaches the piston. This regulates how "hard" the piston drives the bolt back.
The recoil spring, pushes in the opposite direction, resisting the forces that are driving the bolt back, and serving to return the bolt to the closed position after the spent shell is extracted and ejected.

The farther that the gas ports are located from the muzzle, the greater the volume, pressure, and time duration of the pressurized gasses that reach the piston. From the time that the wad passes over the ports, until it leaves the muzzle, high pressure gas is driving the piston back.

For that reason, your 30" barrel on your Maxus will beat the crap out of a gun that has been tuned to operate reliably with a 26" barrel.

For a 30" barrel, you need a piston that opens easier, and a recoil spring that requires more force to compress.

A gun with a 24" barrel needs a piston with a spring that barely allows the bypass valve to open. If it allows it to open at all.
And it doesn't need a heavy recoil spring, because the bolt isn't being slammed back with nearly as much force.

You need to strike a balance between enough force to reliably function, and too much force beating the gun up.
That balance is struck, by adjusting how much gas is vented at or before the piston, and how stiff the recoil spring is.
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Re: Inertia vs. Gas

Postby 3200 man » Sat May 31, 2014 12:03 pm

Not according to Jeff at Sure-Cycle ! I have been using the sealed piston in the Maxus for a year now with NO hammering
of the recoil-lug or lost of factory spring tension . The 30" barrel in this Sporting Model seems to work just fine as it's only
a 3" chamber and I only run 2 3/4" reloads in it that are Gaep'd , so power in the shell isn't the issue as Ducks do die at 50 yds
Plus , with very little recoil after adding 8 oz's of weight to the stock !

Thanks for your thoughts , though !
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Re: Inertia vs. Gas

Postby copterdoc » Sat May 31, 2014 2:09 pm

3200 man wrote:Not according to Jeff at Sure-Cycle !
What exactly, "not according to Jeff at Sure-Cycle" did I say?
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Re: Inertia vs. Gas

Postby clampdaddy » Sat May 31, 2014 3:12 pm

Ran a sealed piston in the Maxus I had and I still run one in my Silver. Without the use of high speed photography it would be hard to know for sure, but when I talked to Jeff he made it sound like he didn't think that the pistons actually open until the operating sleeve slams into the receiver and the piston can't travel any further. I don't know when the piston actually opens and I won't pretend to, but I do know that neither of my guns showed any accelerated wear after running the sealed pistons. My Maxus did not like the stainless sure cycle system though (with either piston) as one sping was too heavy and caused jams, the other one being a bit too lite and did show a bit of receiver hammering. It works real nice in my Silver though.
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Re: Inertia vs. Gas

Postby copterdoc » Sat May 31, 2014 3:24 pm

clampdaddy wrote:Ran a sealed piston in the Maxus I had and I still run one in my Silver. Without the use of high speed photography it would be hard to know for sure, but when I talked to Jeff he made it sound like he didn't think that the pistons actually open until the operating sleeve slams into the receiver and the piston can't travel any further. I don't know when the piston actually opens and I won't pretend to, but I do know that neither of my guns showed any accelerated wear after running the sealed pistons. My Maxus did not like the stainless sure cycle system though as one sping was to heavy and caused jams, the other one being a bit too lite and did show a bit of receiver hammering.
I have found that with a 28" barrel on my 3.5" Silver, the piston might be opening, but it doesn't affect how the gun operates unless a heavier than stock recoil spring is installed. And even then, it doesn't make much difference changing from a Mag (lightest spring tension) piston to a sealed piston. It'll cycle everything with a 28" barrel, and spit 3.5" empties over 15 feet away.

However, with a 24" barrel, the gun won't cycle 2-3/4" or even 3" mag loads with a heavy recoil spring installed.
No matter what piston is installed.
With a sealed or Sporting Clay (SC) piston installed and a heavy recoil spring installed, it will only cycle 3.5" loads.

With a factory 3.5" recoil spring installed, it will cycle the lightest trap loads I can find, with a sealed or SC piston, but not with a Mag piston.

With a 24" barrel, Mag piston, and factory recoil spring, it's a 3" and up only gun.
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Re: Inertia vs. Gas

Postby clampdaddy » Sat May 31, 2014 3:45 pm

Both of mine wore 26 inch tubes.
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Re: Inertia vs. Gas

Postby 3200 man » Sat May 31, 2014 5:10 pm

I have used some pretty stout 3" handloads in the AM and shot 7/8 oz sporting loads that afternoon without a FTF ,
in the Maxus ! I even shot Doves with 1 oz factory steel loads and Won money shoots that night with heavy lead loads .
No battering of the recoil lug or any signs of excessive wear ! AND , there isn't any blow-by to speak of , in the action
or around the mag tube . :huh: and it's a 30" over-bored barrel ?
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Re: Inertia vs. Gas

Postby copterdoc » Sat May 31, 2014 5:31 pm

3200 man wrote:I have used some pretty stout 3" handloads in the AM...........
Shoot more than "some".

With that 30" barrel, you'll soon flatten the buffer, and start battering the back of the receiver surrounding the plunger. I'd wager that it won't even take a case of your pet 3" loads to do it.
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Re: Inertia vs. Gas

Postby 3200 man » Sat May 31, 2014 5:53 pm

I'll let you know when it happens ! I don't need long shells for the 12 ga to kill Birds , when my 10 ga is close-by !

Damn , it's a pump too ! With more power than I can use , without a piston or a stock spring !

I guess its weight is what absorbs the recoil , :huh: , of this massive payload shooting beast ? LMAO

Pssss , our limits are a lot bigger here in the Pacific Flyway , one case doesn't last long here !
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Re: Inertia vs. Gas

Postby clampdaddy » Sat May 31, 2014 7:26 pm

I doubt that there would be any real difference once you have reached the required exhaust pulse dwell time. Now maybe your 24" barrel doesn't offer a sufficient dwell time due to the short distance between the exhaust ports and the muzzle (often seen in "dissipator" type AR15 carbines) but once that point is met you aren't increasing the pressure, you are simply increasing the amount of time that the pressure is being exerted on the piston and operating sleeve after it is pushed up against the face of the receiver.
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Re: Inertia vs. Gas

Postby Tgunz64 » Mon Jun 09, 2014 3:20 pm

Don't look at gas or inertia when buying. But what you like and what fits. Both are reliable.
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