Steel Shot Penetration Table

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Re: Steel Shot Penetration Table

Postby Shotgunner12 » Fri Jul 04, 2014 9:44 pm

Thank ya sir.
Hand me some more shells!
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Re: Steel Shot Penetration Table

Postby wildflights » Sat Jul 05, 2014 9:49 am

That's an interesting chart. An extra 300 fps at the muzzle buys next to nothing over normal shooting ranges.
Wish there was a 1,250 fps column.
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Re: Steel Shot Penetration Table

Postby Jon Bergren » Sun Jul 06, 2014 7:33 am

Lowery's tables are only good to 1600 fps. You need KPY program for fastter loads. Ned S
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Re: Steel Shot Penetration Table

Postby J J Mac » Sun Jul 06, 2014 8:33 am

Jon Bergren wrote:Lowery's tables are only good to 1600 fps. You need KPY program for fastter loads. Ned S

I have had Lowry's Shotshell Ballistics for a long time and it calculates results for muzzle velocities out to 1800 fps. I suspect that Lowry had no experimental data past this velocity so limited the program to under 1800 fps.
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Re: Steel Shot Penetration Table

Postby Jon Bergren » Sun Jul 06, 2014 8:52 am

J J Mac wrote:
Jon Bergren wrote:Lowery's tables are only good to 1600 fps. You need KPY program for fastter loads. Ned S

I have had Lowry's Shotshell Ballistics for a long time and it calculates results for muzzle velocities out to 1800 fps. I suspect that Lowry had no experimental data past this velocity so limited the program to under 1800 fps.


I talked to Ed Lowery before he died and he said he had no idea that steel velocitys would get to 1700 fps (The Danes have went over 2000 fps) and that his tables were only accurate to 1600 fps and anything over this velocity was in error altho the tables went to 1800 fps. KPY tables will verify this. Ned S
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Re: Steel Shot Penetration Table

Postby J J Mac » Sun Jul 06, 2014 5:17 pm

Jon Bergren wrote:
J J Mac wrote:
Jon Bergren wrote:Lowery's tables are only good to 1600 fps. You need KPY program for fastter loads. Ned S

I have had Lowry's Shotshell Ballistics for a long time and it calculates results for muzzle velocities out to 1800 fps. I suspect that Lowry had no experimental data past this velocity so limited the program to under 1800 fps.


I talked to Ed Lowery before he died and he said he had no idea that steel velocitys would get to 1700 fps (The Danes have went over 2000 fps) and that his tables were only accurate to 1600 fps and anything over this velocity was in error altho the tables went to 1800 fps. KPY tables will verify this. Ned S

Don't understand your comment about KPY vs lowry ballistics. Are you saying that KPY calculations are accurate over 1600 fps and Lowry calculations are not?
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Re: Steel Shot Penetration Table

Postby Jon Bergren » Sun Jul 06, 2014 7:37 pm

wildflights wrote:That's an interesting chart. An extra 300 fps at the muzzle buys next to nothing over normal shooting ranges.
Wish there was a 1,250 fps column.

Going from 1250 to 1550 fps with 3's the kill distance goes from 42.9 yds to 50.4 yds. That's 7.5 yds hardly next to nothing. I shoot most of my 3's at 1650 fps or 53.4 yds or 10.5 yds diff. Ned S.
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Re: Steel Shot Penetration Table

Postby Jon Bergren » Sun Jul 06, 2014 7:39 pm

J J Mac wrote:
Jon Bergren wrote:
J J Mac wrote:
Jon Bergren wrote:Lowery's tables are only good to 1600 fps. You need KPY program for fastter loads. Ned S

I have had Lowry's Shotshell Ballistics for a long time and it calculates results for muzzle velocities out to 1800 fps. I suspect that Lowry had no experimental data past this velocity so limited the program to under 1800 fps.


I talked to Ed Lowery before he died and he said he had no idea that steel velocitys would get to 1700 fps (The Danes have went over 2000 fps) and that his tables were only accurate to 1600 fps and anything over this velocity was in error altho the tables went to 1800 fps. KPY tables will verify this. Ned S

Don't understand your comment about KPY vs lowry ballistics. Are you saying that KPY calculations are accurate over 1600 fps and Lowry calculations are not?

Yep! That's what Lowry and KPY said. Ned S
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Re: Steel Shot Penetration Table

Postby J J Mac » Sun Jul 06, 2014 8:10 pm

Jon Bergren wrote:
J J Mac wrote:
Jon Bergren wrote:
J J Mac wrote:
Jon Bergren wrote:Lowery's tables are only good to 1600 fps. You need KPY program for fastter loads. Ned S

I have had Lowry's Shotshell Ballistics for a long time and it calculates results for muzzle velocities out to 1800 fps. I suspect that Lowry had no experimental data past this velocity so limited the program to under 1800 fps.


I talked to Ed Lowery before he died and he said he had no idea that steel velocitys would get to 1700 fps (The Danes have went over 2000 fps) and that his tables were only accurate to 1600 fps and anything over this velocity was in error altho the tables went to 1800 fps. KPY tables will verify this. Ned S

Don't understand your comment about KPY vs lowry ballistics. Are you saying that KPY calculations are accurate over 1600 fps and Lowry calculations are not?

Yep! That's what Lowry and KPY said. Ned S

I think you must have misinterpreted what Lowry and Toasty said if Toasty even addressed this issue Think about it. What you are saying is that the two programs give the same results for the all velocities 1600 fps and lower but give different results for velocities in the range 1800 to 1600 fps. Makes no sense!
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Re: Steel Shot Penetration Table

Postby wildflights » Mon Jul 07, 2014 6:27 am

Jon Bergren wrote:
wildflights wrote:That's an interesting chart. An extra 300 fps at the muzzle buys next to nothing over normal shooting ranges.
Wish there was a 1,250 fps column.

Going from 1250 to 1550 fps with 3's the kill distance goes from 42.9 yds to 50.4 yds. That's 7.5 yds hardly next to nothing. I shoot most of my 3's at 1650 fps or 53.4 yds or 10.5 yds diff. Ned S.


Hi Ned,
I should have clarified that statement. I find it interesting that the difference on paper between 1400 and 1700 fps at 20, 30 and 40 yards is so little. Considering the type of hunting I normally do and the ranges I normally shoot, super fast loads appear to be a paper tiger.
I'm up here in Washington where steel shot is mandated in the uplands over my field bred springers. During those outings, I'm not looking for 50 or 60 yard medicine. I would not be pleased if my dogs were providing 50+ yard shot "opportunities" and I don't normally carry guns choked for those distances. I do get out and shoot some geese and I understand why there is an interest in longer range loads. It's just not my primary focus. I am very interested in 25-30 yard loads and chokes (+/- 10 yds).

The second part of my statement about adding a 1,250 fps column was purely selfish on my part. I load and shoot a lot of slower steel shot ammo at clay and training pigeons in that speed (or lack of). Again I am in WA where many training areas are steel only. These loads normally contain 7/8 to 1 oz. of #7 steel shot in them. I have been pleased with there effectiveness for my needs. I simply wondered how these loads would compare to the OP's charts.
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Re: Steel Shot Penetration Table

Postby zpstl321 » Tue Jul 08, 2014 6:53 am

I think many folks are finding the charts don't match what they see in the field when it comes to high speed loads...for good reason.

Let's see how long it takes to sort it out. :)
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Re: Steel Shot Penetration Table

Postby wildflights » Tue Jul 08, 2014 7:21 am

zpstl321 wrote:I think many folks are finding the charts don't match what they see in the field when it comes to high speed loads...for good reason.

Let's see how long it takes to sort it out. :)


I don't understand. So are you for or against high speed? What have you seen in the field?

I'm not against speed. I think that when figuring foot lbs. of energy, velocity is vastly overrated in the math formula/theory.
Using the square of a number (i.e. 4 fps squared = 16 and 1,200 fps squared = 1,440,000).
On the same note, pattern density/hits on target are almost always undervalued in print. What is generally written about- Minimum # of pellets on target for effect.
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Re: Steel Shot Penetration Table

Postby zpstl321 » Wed Jul 09, 2014 7:42 am

This may help some of you understand why you often see different results in the field. This, taken from one a field test where the gel was set at 40 yards rather than trying to predict using a ballistic program. Also make note of something else shared in the results below. Something I've hinted to in the past with shot speed, penetration, and energy released in the target.

"Pattern testing showed that a 3-inch shell loaded with BB shot put 63 pellets into a 30-inch circle at 40 yards. A 3 1⁄2-inch put 77 pellets into the circle, an 18 percent increase. Penetration into ballistic gelatin at that distance was nearly the same: 5 inches for the 3 1⁄2 and 5.125 inches for the shorter shell. Shot string lengths were statistically identical.

The Results
Load; Recoil; Avg. Time Between Hits
3-inch, 11⁄8 oz. Xpert BB; 30 ft.-lb.; 1.08 seconds
31⁄2-inch, 19⁄16 oz. Drylok BB; 39.58 ft.-lb.; .99 second"
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Re: Steel Shot Penetration Table

Postby wildflights » Thu Jul 10, 2014 4:12 pm

zpstl321 wrote:This may help some of you understand why you often see different results in the field. This, taken from one a field test where the gel was set at 40 yards rather than trying to predict using a ballistic program. Also make note of something else shared in the results below. Something I've hinted to in the past with shot speed, penetration, and energy released in the target.

"Pattern testing showed that a 3-inch shell loaded with BB shot put 63 pellets into a 30-inch circle at 40 yards. A 3 1⁄2-inch put 77 pellets into the circle, an 18 percent increase. Penetration into ballistic gelatin at that distance was nearly the same: 5 inches for the 3 1⁄2 and 5.125 inches for the shorter shell. Shot string lengths were statistically identical.

The Results
Load; Recoil; Avg. Time Between Hits
3-inch, 11⁄8 oz. Xpert BB; 30 ft.-lb.; 1.08 seconds
31⁄2-inch, 19⁄16 oz. Drylok BB; 39.58 ft.-lb.; .99 second"


So a 40% increase in pellets buys you 18% more hits on paper!

And a 32% increase in recoil!
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Re: Steel Shot Penetration Table

Postby baltz526 » Fri Jul 11, 2014 6:22 pm

82 BB in 1 1/8oz, about 114 BB in 1 9/16oz. Isn't that about a 28% difference. Not 40%. Math is not my best subject.
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Re: Steel Shot Penetration Table

Postby wildflights » Sat Jul 12, 2014 12:35 am

baltz526 wrote:82 BB in 1 1/8oz, about 114 BB in 1 9/16oz. Isn't that about a 28% difference. Not 40%. Math is not my best subject.


114/82 multiplied by x/100 = 114 pellets is 139% of 82 pellets (32 extra pellets is 39% of 82).
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Re: Steel Shot Penetration Table

Postby lostknife4 » Sat Jul 12, 2014 4:44 am

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Re: Steel Shot Penetration Table

Postby lostknife4 » Sat Jul 12, 2014 4:52 am

1250 vs 1550 fps
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Re: Steel Shot Penetration Table

Postby wildflights » Sat Jul 12, 2014 7:42 am

Thanks for the charts Lost.
Looking at those #'s, steel 7's look pretty limp. Not sure how or why they are able to break clay let alone kill something.

At one time, I played with some ungodly, slow (well under 600 fps) specialty lead ammo. I was looking for a close range, quiet rodent whacker. I found neither.
While looking at patterns, I was surprised to find lead 4's penetrated less than lead 8's on cardboard at 10 yards. The 4's wouldn't get through OR even stick in the top layer of cardboard. Same load, just a larger shot size.
No point being made by any of that, I just found it interesting and surprising and thought I'd share.

I do wonder about all the statistics and #'s that we see posted on DHC. i.e. This load penetrates to kill at 56.825 yards and 1.2825 inches of gel penetration at such-N-such range.
Has anyone actually shot these loads into gel?
If not, is the math a one size fits all theorem regardless of pellet size?
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Re: Steel Shot Penetration Table

Postby lostknife4 » Sat Jul 12, 2014 8:01 am

wildflights wrote:Thanks for the charts Lost.
Looking at those #'s, steel 7's look pretty limp. Not sure how or why they are able to break clay let alone kill something.

At one time, I played with some ungodly, slow (well under 600 fps) specialty lead ammo. I was looking for a close range, quiet rodent whacker. I found neither.
While looking at patterns, I was surprised to find lead 4's penetrated less than lead 8's on cardboard at 10 yards. The 4's wouldn't get through OR even stick in the top layer of cardboard. Same load, just a larger shot size.
No point being made by any of that, I just found it interesting and surprising and thought I'd share.

I do wonder about all the statistics and #'s that we see posted on DHC. i.e. This load penetrates to kill at 56.825 yards and 1.2825 inches of gel penetration at such-N-such range.
Has anyone actually shot these loads into gel?
If not, is the math a one size fits all theorem regardless of pellet size?


Apparently you have seen that penetration is a function of mass and diameter given the same velocity (?), since in your experiment the velocity was the same, I assume, but the diameter and corresponding bullet mass of the larger pellet is larger of course than the smaller pellet, however the area of the hole to be penetrated was a function of the square of the diameter and so the smaller pellet had the advantage ie because of higher energy per in² of cross section, sectional density. We have had similar findings using high velocity 22 cal bullets vs 30 cal and larger bullets when piercing plate steel, the 22's did much better but were going faster too.

I'm not sure about the correlation between the penetration of feathers and skin of a bird vs Ballistic Gel however the Gel was formulated to give a medium to compare different shot sizes, mass density and velocities of various pellets and bullets.

The math formulae are approximately all the same however some of the "constants" are specific to mass density, form factor due to surface condition and most assume the pellets are spherical. It would be almost impossible to do any meaningful calculations with non-spherical pellets.

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Re: Steel Shot Penetration Table

Postby ksfowler166 » Mon Jul 14, 2014 5:07 pm

The chart was calculated with #2 and #1 steel with 1,026fps at 32 deg. F and 1,000 feet, 1.3" of penetration is the lightest penetration number for ducks I have seen recommended and it works only on some presentations. While 1.5" is the standard number given for penetration and 1.75" is for when can not have cripples and shots offer difficult presentations.

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Re: Steel Shot Penetration Table

Postby lostknife4 » Wed Jul 16, 2014 6:35 am

ksfowler166 wrote:The chart was calculated with #2 and #1 steel with 1,026fps at 32 deg. F and 1,000 feet, 1.3" of penetration is the lightest penetration number for ducks I have seen recommended and it works only on some presentations. While 1.5" is the standard number given for penetration and 1.75" is for when can not have cripples and shots offer difficult presentations.

Image



Things will change dramatically with an increase in MV to 1500 or so, I use TSS @ 1350 but it has much superior ballistics than Steel, however I feel you are limiting yourself with this low muzzle velocity.
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Re: Steel Shot Penetration Table

Postby UmatillaJeff » Fri Jul 18, 2014 5:49 pm

derbyacresbob wrote:These penetration tables shows me that the target distance is more important than speed. I have known this for quite a while but it really shows up on these tables.

Round pellets do not hold there speed like bullets do no matter what the round pellets are made of. The faster a round pellet starts out the faster it will slow down.

The 1400 fps #3 steel at 40 yards is only going 75 fps slower than the 1700 fps #3 steel steel pellet is going at 40 yards. That is a bunch of recoil for not much speed gain at 40 yards.

The 30 yard penetration for the 1400 fps #3 steel pellet is 1.8" and the 1700 fps #3 steel pellet penetration at 40 yards is 1.7".
These tables really show that 10 yards closer is much more important than HI SPEED and the recoil that comes along with HI SPEED.


It's nice to see that somebody gets it besides me. all foolishness..... Speed up front where all but the poorest shots do not need the help or the penetration and then little of nothing extra where you need it and where it will do the most good.

Fast steel= The emperors new clothing!!! :yes:
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Re: Steel Shot Penetration Table

Postby J J Mac » Fri Jul 18, 2014 7:31 pm

UmatillaJeff wrote:
derbyacresbob wrote:These penetration tables shows me that the target distance is more important than speed. I have known this for quite a while but it really shows up on these tables.

Round pellets do not hold there speed like bullets do no matter what the round pellets are made of. The faster a round pellet starts out the faster it will slow down.

The 1400 fps #3 steel at 40 yards is only going 75 fps slower than the 1700 fps #3 steel steel pellet is going at 40 yards. That is a bunch of recoil for not much speed gain at 40 yards.

The 30 yard penetration for the 1400 fps #3 steel pellet is 1.8" and the 1700 fps #3 steel pellet penetration at 40 yards is 1.7".
These tables really show that 10 yards closer is much more important than HI SPEED and the recoil that comes along with HI SPEED.


It's nice to see that somebody gets it besides me. all foolishness..... Speed up front where all but the poorest shots do not need the help or the penetration and then little of nothing extra where you need it and where it will do the most good.

Fast steel= The emperors new clothing!!! :yes:

What derbyacresbob writes is one way to look at the effect of muzzle velocity but I think the best way to compare the added range to any velocity of two loads with different muzzle velocities is shown here
http://www.duckhuntingchat.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=501930&start=0&sid=24b697accdb5ed984edfb0a0e909b4d8#p5122570
See the first table for #3 steel shot. This shows that for the any velocity less than or equal to 1400 fps, the 1700 fps load gives 7 yards added range. If you like 1.5" penetration for ducks, you get 7 yd more range. if you like 600 fps, you get 7 yd more range. If you like 235 energy density, you get 7 yd more range. Etc. Of course, you must be able to get good patterns.at the higher velocity,
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Re: Steel Shot Penetration Table

Postby UmatillaJeff » Fri Jul 18, 2014 9:24 pm

I understand what he is saying as well as I can see that the tiny difference in speed undeniable shows an edge on paper.

Look at it my way.... If he guy can shoot in the first place he sure as hell doesn't need a cloud of small pellets to shoot a bird in the decoys ( You have to remember that nobody on duck hunters chat except me shoots over 35 yards) and since we all know that steel 2's are 100% effective to 40 yards the point of fast small pellets is just silliness!

It's like talking about weather or not you like the tooth fairy better then Bigfoot. Absolutely **** pointless. Jeff
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