Shotshell distance problem

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Shotshell distance problem

Postby tenfingergrip » Fri Aug 19, 2011 7:59 am

Hey guys, I need some help with what I hope won't turn in to be a legal problem. Our hunt club skeet range had a complaint from a newly moved in trailer neighbor and a visit from the local sherrif concerning falling shot from the range. I don't think it ever got off our property but I have to handle with 'kid gloves'. I need some help from you guys that may have access to Lowery's Ballistics program. I need to know:

1) Maximum distance a number 7 1/2 shot will travel w/muzzel velocity of 1250 fps. Also what is the launch angle for that shot and the maximum height the shot reach before starting to fall and at what distance along the path does this max ht. occur?

2) Same with # 8 shot

3) Maximum distance a shot of 1250 fps #8 launced at a 15 degree angle will travel and the max. ht. it will reach before losing altitude at what distance.

4) Same for #7 1/2 shot

This will be a big help. I'll graph out the results and have that available for interested parties. First order of business is to "pacify" landowner and let him know we'll be on top of it and assure there's not a danger. We'll get somebody in the woods and do some test shots this weekend.

Thanks in advance.

TFG
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Re: Shotshell distance problem

Postby skb20 » Fri Aug 19, 2011 8:19 am

1250 fps 7.5's -- max horizontal distance -- 699 feet, launch angle 24.1 degrees, max height 180 feet, terminal velocity 78 ft/sec

1250 fps 8's --- 668 feet....................23.9 degrees...............172 feet.......................76 ft/sec

Greater, or lesser, launch angle will reduce horiz distance, wind will have negligible effect.

Good luck.
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Re: Shotshell distance problem

Postby tenfingergrip » Fri Aug 19, 2011 9:12 am

Thanks a bunch,skb20. Are you able to calculate the second part of the question, the one where the launch angle is 15 degrees with the # 8 & # 7 1/2 shot @ 1250 fps that gives me the distance it will travel, the max ht., and distance from the muzzel that max height is acheived is, and the terminal velocity.

Also, on your previous calculation, does it tell you how far out (distance from muzzel) along the path of the shot, the shot reaches that 180 foot height.

This distance makes a difference in whether or not the shot ever clears a patch of trees that are 163 yards (489 ft) from the seven station. Trees are about 80 yds (240 ft) deep thick, 50 ft. high, then a road, 60 feet r.o.w., across, then the neigthbor's yard. I really need to have all the 'ducks in a row' prior to my Mr. Niceguy call.

Thanks for the info.
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Re: Shotshell distance problem

Postby skb20 » Fri Aug 19, 2011 10:13 am

Sorry, no can do with the program I have. +2000' elevation adds 36 feet to max horizontal flight distance. #9's @ 1250 fps drops it to 607' at sea level, 639 @ 2000' asl
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Re: Shotshell distance problem

Postby Yuchi1 » Fri Aug 19, 2011 10:24 am

Your situation mirrors that of many other gun clubs as urban encroachment brings issues that didn't previously exist.

With that being said, does your club have a variance from the county commission for the club?

If so, what are the stipulations?

Reason being, the trailer park owner likely wasn't oblivious to the gun club activities prior to establishing the facility.
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Re: Shotshell distance problem

Postby duckkillersinc » Fri Aug 19, 2011 10:50 am

Does your program assume the velocity of 1250 fps is a constant?

It's not there is a significant continuing reduction in shot velocity after the shot leaves the barrel. The only way you could precisely calculate this is by knowing the exact shot shape and size, mass and many other variables and come up with one heck of a formula!
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Re: Shotshell distance problem

Postby tenfingergrip » Fri Aug 19, 2011 5:18 pm

Not a trailer park, just single lots down the opposite side of a rural road that borders on our property. The lots that have been sold are for "manufactured homes" (sounds better and they can get a vha loan as well with a permanent foundation). That's the only ownership "homes" being newly occupied in our depressed county.

Somebody out there has got a program that will provide the info I need, I just need to find it.

Not sure what program skb used for my first info, but somebody somewhere sometime had to plug in the inital fps and shot size and angle to come up with a height and distance to final velocity. I though Lowery's did it or Toasty's program by chance.
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Re: Shotshell distance problem

Postby Woodyard » Fri Aug 19, 2011 7:11 pm

I've always been told the maximum shotfall range on a skeet field is 1,000 feet. You might want to consider a shot barrier.
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Re: Shotshell distance problem

Postby BT Justice » Sat Aug 20, 2011 3:32 am

Quite honestly if the people are complaining already then your going to be in for a legal battle anyway so get prepaired for it. Most of the time the gun range is on the loosing end of it but there are ways you can win, if your club has been there any lenth of time and it public knowledge your club has had the shooting range there then you may stand a chance. In most areas of the country you can't just put up a home next to an existing enterprise and expect them to shut down because you feel they are making to much noise or disturbing you. If the owner of the land who sold these people the lot knew the range was there then he had to tell them(disclosure), if they knowingly put up the home aware of the range and any danger then it's their problem...but the trick is to have a judge make that decision. Then they have two choices..move or put up with it.
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Re: Shotshell distance problem

Postby J J Mac » Sat Aug 20, 2011 6:47 pm

tenfingergrip wrote:Hey guys, I need some help with what I hope won't turn in to be a legal problem. Our hunt club skeet range had a complaint from a newly moved in trailer neighbor and a visit from the local sherrif concerning falling shot from the range. I don't think it ever got off our property but I have to handle with 'kid gloves'. I need some help from you guys that may have access to Lowery's Ballistics program. I need to know:

1) Maximum distance a number 7 1/2 shot will travel w/muzzel velocity of 1250 fps. Also what is the launch angle for that shot and the maximum height the shot reach before starting to fall and at what distance along the path does this max ht. occur?

2) Same with # 8 shot

3) Maximum distance a shot of 1250 fps #8 launced at a 15 degree angle will travel and the max. ht. it will reach before losing altitude at what distance.

4) Same for #7 1/2 shot

This will be a big help. I'll graph out the results and have that available for interested parties. First order of business is to "pacify" landowner and let him know we'll be on top of it and assure there's not a danger. We'll get somebody in the woods and do some test shots this weekend.

Thanks in advance.

TFG

As you have found out, Shotshell Ballsitics can't do all you want. I can calculate this info for you using a program I have written but am really busy charter fishing every day until mid September. Would need to know temperature and altitude in addition to what you have supplied. I certainly do not want to get involved in a legal dispute however. My calculation for max distance and shooting angle agree very well with Lowry's Shotshell Ballistics. His velocity, time of flight, etc out to normal shooting distances have been verified experimentally and so the calculations for max horiz ontal and vertical distances are probably valid but probably have not been verified experimentally and this might be a problem if you used these calculations in a legal confrontation. I feel pretty sure that you can find specifications for skeet and trap fields that take this info into account.
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Re: Shotshell distance problem

Postby duckkillersinc » Wed Aug 24, 2011 1:20 pm

J J Mac wrote:
tenfingergrip wrote:Hey guys, I need some help with what I hope won't turn in to be a legal problem. Our hunt club skeet range had a complaint from a newly moved in trailer neighbor and a visit from the local sherrif concerning falling shot from the range. I don't think it ever got off our property but I have to handle with 'kid gloves'. I need some help from you guys that may have access to Lowery's Ballistics program. I need to know:

1) Maximum distance a number 7 1/2 shot will travel w/muzzel velocity of 1250 fps. Also what is the launch angle for that shot and the maximum height the shot reach before starting to fall and at what distance along the path does this max ht. occur?

2) Same with # 8 shot

3) Maximum distance a shot of 1250 fps #8 launced at a 15 degree angle will travel and the max. ht. it will reach before losing altitude at what distance.

4) Same for #7 1/2 shot

This will be a big help. I'll graph out the results and have that available for interested parties. First order of business is to "pacify" landowner and let him know we'll be on top of it and assure there's not a danger. We'll get somebody in the woods and do some test shots this weekend.

Im interested if your program accounts for the reduction in shot velocity over time. Its not that hard to calculate distance based on angle, constant velocity, shot size etc.., but when your shot has a decreasing velocity over time/distance there are a lot of factors to consider. If you have a program for this I really would like to see it. FYI 1250fps out the barrel does not equal 1250 fps at the target down range.
Thanks in advance.

TFG

As you have found out, Shotshell Ballsitics can't do all you want. I can calculate this info for you using a program I have written but am really busy charter fishing every day until mid September. Would need to know temperature and altitude in addition to what you have supplied. I certainly do not want to get involved in a legal dispute however. My calculation for max distance and shooting angle agree very well with Lowry's Shotshell Ballistics. His velocity, time of flight, etc out to normal shooting distances have been verified experimentally and so the calculations for max horiz ontal and vertical distances are probably valid but probably have not been verified experimentally and this might be a problem if you used these calculations in a legal confrontation. I feel pretty sure that you can find specifications for skeet and trap fields that take this info into account.
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Re: Shotshell distance problem

Postby Cujo1 » Wed Aug 24, 2011 1:28 pm

Interesting predicament Tenfinger. Please keep us posted on the findings of your endeavors and good luck!
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Re: Shotshell distance problem

Postby Rob MacK » Wed Aug 24, 2011 3:42 pm

I have data from the US Army that may help.....I will look for it now and send you the info. I move every three years so cross your fingers.


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Re: Shotshell distance problem

Postby Rob MacK » Wed Aug 24, 2011 4:04 pm

Wow I found it! I may not be exactly what you want but here it goes. The manual is called Shotgun Range Suggestions and covers all games including international sports. I think I got it from the NSCA. Trap and Skeet call for a 300yd safety zone using allowable ammunition for each sport. The manual uses "Ordinance Technical Manual 9-1990" which calculated its data based on "Journee's Formula" for determining the approximate maximum range for a shotgun.

Lead shot
Muzzle elevated 30 deg
No height of shot listed
# 9-176 yds
#8-198 yds
#7 1/2-209 yds
#6-242 yds
#4-286 yds
#2-330 yds

If your club belongs to the NSSA, NSCA or ATA I am sure they would be able to help get your answers.

Good luck man,

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Re: Shotshell distance problem

Postby ohio mike » Wed Aug 24, 2011 4:10 pm

Good luck we had to turn our traps 90degrees and change shooting times. A lot of money to be a good neighbor. :no: :mad:
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Re: Shotshell distance problem

Postby tenfingergrip » Wed Aug 24, 2011 4:43 pm

Thanks Rob and JJ,
Rob, That info helps confirm my suppositions that the shot won't reach the neighbor's yard, which is 262 yards from the shotgun muzzell at the Station 7 pad on the skeet range. That station is the only one that could possibly be in question the way the range is laid out. At #7, the angle of the shot is approximately 17 degrees and could go as high as 25 degrees if the shooter was short. That target exits the house at 3.5 feet high and passes over the center stake at 15 feet high. That is about 15 degrees but nobody is 3.5 feet tall so the shot angle is probably between 17 and 25 degrees according to when the shot is fired and how tall the shooter is. I do know the max distance the shot (7 1/2) will travel is 233 yds on level ground with nothing to stop it. I've got trees in between so JJ MacK has indicated he can supply me with the info that will let me know if the shot will even clear the trees (80 yds deep, 13 yds high), much less travel 242 yards which is the end of our tree lined property.

Thanks for the interest and help. I'll let you know the outcome. I'll probably be firing some test shots for the sherrif's deputies to observe after I get the info from JJ MacK.
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Re: Shotshell distance problem

Postby J J Mac » Wed Aug 24, 2011 7:00 pm

I have done some calculations for you and will send them to you if you will PM me your email address.
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