Bismuth or Heavy Shot?

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Bismuth or Heavy Shot?

Postby Los Banos » Sun Apr 23, 2006 4:22 pm

which one is better?
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Postby pennsyltucky » Sun Apr 23, 2006 8:14 pm

hevi shot by a mile. bsmuth is good for old guns not made to handle steel
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Postby Sagebrush » Sun Apr 23, 2006 9:34 pm

Mile my ***....

They all have their "thing".

Bismuth:
For the old guns with fixed chokes and soft steel barrels it is the "best".
If you want too save your teeth it is the "best".
If it is buffered, it is the best at 70 yards.
If you want to use a lead "full choke" it is the "best".

Heavi:
If you want the same performance at lower fps "best".
If you want deeper penetration, "best".
If you shoot a mod. or ext. IM choke, "best".
If you have a fantastic dental plan, "best".

If you want to save money, your head is up your ***.

Sage...... now what ?
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Postby pennsyltucky » Mon Apr 24, 2006 7:44 am

bismuth is not good at 70 yards. its lighter than lead, and more brittle. it doesnt have enuf energy to do more than break ur skin or put ur eye out past 75 unless u are using great big shot sizes (then u would be better off with steel shot to have a fuller pattern). its better than steel (weightwise), but not as good as lead. hevishot on the other hand holds patterns and kills better than lead and way better than bismuth, and carries alot more energy much farther. it can be fired at speeds over 1300, unlike bismuth, and it wont deform and fly away or break into little pieces, unlike bismuth.

bismuth costs right about the same as hevi, which is an outrageous price for either, but u are getting something for ur money when u get hevishot.

i have reloaded different sizes of both. i recently sold the bismuth that i had left to a friend. it wasnt worth dealing with. id rather just use steel. the hevishot was amazing, tho. it patterns extremely well, even at 60 yards. #6's work on everything up to a goose thats not further than 40 yards..

i bought hevi for use in my .62cal smoothbore flintlock. now its my turkey gun!! just a tight mod choke and it makes turkey killin patterns out to 45+ yards. and with a turkey choke, its actually so tight (a 10-12" pattern spread at 25), i wouldnt feel comfortable taking a shot inside 30 yards


and the hevi shot shouldnt hurt ur teeth either....... ive never had a pellet that didnt go the whole way thru a bird. im sure i will someday, but its not hard to slice out. same as steel. and hevi wont pull feathers into the meat like lead and bismuth, because it slices thru instead of flattening and dragging feathers, :thumbsup:
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Postby cooter » Tue Apr 25, 2006 6:42 pm

All things being the same, and not figuring in a old gun.

Hevi-Shot is the best No-Tox Shot available, bar none. If it has a problem, it is TO lethal.

We (3) were just dang lucky one morning, when a group of 30-35 Redhead (Limit 2)broke in on us. First group of the morning. A buddy was shooting some 2 3/4" #7's from AA hulls that I had loaded for him. Front bird was a beautiful Drake Redhead. "BANG" Drake Redhead belly up at 20 yards and when the smoke had cleared, there were 5 more string out to 50-60 yards. Our limit of Redheads in 1 shot.

It was our first season with any dealings with Hevi-Shot, and a real knowledgable shot that was. From that point on, we are watching for birds away from a flock, and always looking for birds behind the one we are shooting at, even to the tune of 40-50 back.

Geese within 50 yards, 3" #4's and it is over. This is the most awesome stuff I have EVER shot "including" lead. It is better than lead IMO. cooter
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Postby Citori12 » Thu Apr 27, 2006 7:32 am

lead out performs either hands down.Guns are meant to shoot lead not tungsten. But for arguement sake Steel will knock em down further than either if you know what your doing with it!!!!!!!!!!
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Postby pennsyltucky » Thu Apr 27, 2006 7:57 am

citori, ill agree 50%. lead is better than bismuth, but not better than hevi. especially in a turkey load. it has all the benefits of both lead and steel. it retains weight and hits hard (harder) like lead, but it also handles speed, patterns great , and penetrates tissue like high speed steel. plus it also takes up less space in the shell per oz.

i got 28 lead #5's in a turkey head at 45yards with my 2 1/2 oz load, and i got 44 hevi #6's in it at the same distance with my 2 1/4oz load. and the hevi is going 1250 while the lead is only going 1160..... i can make it go as fast as the hevi with 2400 powder, but the pattern goes to crap....

by the way, i dont think anyone should spend all that money on hevi just for a couple turkey loads, but i got mine for a good deal, and i needed it for the little 410 for ducks for my wife, and for in my flintlock 20ga.
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Postby Citori12 » Thu Apr 27, 2006 11:18 am

for turkey loads its a mute point. If you get close enough to shoot a turkey you only use one shell anyway. (by the way you must be quoting factory fodder) How about 2 oz of lead @ 1350? For waterfowl why spend 2 dollars a round? Your shotgun requires different performance characteristics when your trying to knock something out of the air versus trying to pop a critter in the head on the ground. Again shotguns were designed to shoot lead. As are rifles and pistols. Tungsten is an expensive metal to fling out of a smooth bore and actually I found out that steel is an excellent turkey load. It patterns tight and consistant even out of open choke guns.
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Postby cooter » Thu Apr 27, 2006 5:34 pm

Lead loads get flats spots on them when crimping pressure is applied. This in it self is the bases for the difference. Many flyer with lead causing the pattern to break down faster than just about any of the shot we are talking about. I like lead, and cost is also a factor in everything for sure.

But straight up figure'n. What shot is best "PERIOD" Hevi-Shot holds its form after crimp, meaning it patterns as good a steel. Holds a pattern longer than ALL other including lead, with higher killing density than lead at a longer range.

I still believe that Hevy-Shot is the best shot on the market today. Which then each person has to figure in, what factors apply to them. Old Gun, Cost, etc. etc. etc. and then decide if it is applicable for them. But personal limits and applications do not change the best product available. Just our opinions as consumers.

Seems that it all started with the Black Powder Rifles, with Gravel and Glass, which wore out the riflings. This force the smooth bore. With lead being the only bullets, lead was the logical choice.
But try firing a bullet, Ball, or Sabot with a flat spot on it, like just about every pellet of lead in a shotgun shell has and check a 100 yard group. The group would be all over the place, just like the lead pellets after about 35-40 yards. It does still have killing energy, but placing very many hits on a target becomes harder. Hevi-Shot flies ALMOST as true a STEEL, and may out preform it, according to which steel you use.

But, this is all alot deeper than it really matters due to our abilities as shooters. So, take a slingshot and a rock. If you can hit them, they will come down. And each of these products can claim the very same thing. So I guess I will just keep practising my shooting. It seems to mean the most. :toofunny: cooter
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Postby Citori12 » Thu Apr 27, 2006 6:08 pm

Ok but since when can you dent a lead pellet with crimping? Well that is if you use soft lead rather than magnum, or plated lead shot...trust me when I say that lead is a superior projectile for firearms. Tungsten is very hard, bismith is very brittle. Tungsten does not deform. If tungsten was a superior metal for projectiles I would expect to see it in jacket rifle ammo. Problem is its too hard for such use.
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Postby cooter » Thu Apr 27, 2006 7:30 pm

Citori12 wrote:Ok but since when can you dent a lead pellet with crimping? Well that is if you use soft lead rather than magnum, or plated lead shot.


Just pull the handle down. "DENT" Lead is a soft metal.:thumbsup: But I guess like you, I have been doing it for many years also. Just got through cutting open a Federal Field Load, and a Winchecter Field Load. Just about ever pellet I looked at had a flat spot OR two, where it had been pressed against the other ones it was laying on or beside.

Then the magnum, or plated lead shot is not at the GOOD price, starts getting a little more $. Not a lot, but I don't think that your Store Bought Shells are going to be using these Leads, unless marked that way, and then more money.

Citori12 wrote:trust me when I say that lead is a superior projectile for firearms. Tungsten is very hard, bismith is very brittle. Tungsten does not deform. If tungsten was a superior metal for projectiles I would expect to see it in jacket rifle ammo. Problem is its too hard for such use.


And I will agree up a storm with this. But I thought we were talking about shotguns pellets. Projectiles are made of some thing hard enough to hold it's form, but made to flatten out on impact. Get you a Auto Rifle and load 3 rounds in it end to end and leave it for 3-5 hours. . Then take them out and put them back in the Auto everyday for 4-5 days. Then look at the end of your projectile. It will be showing signs of flattening, meaning it is not going to fly as true. But now we are talking 2 different stratagies for achieving a goal.

A bullet needs to flatten to increase it killing energy on bigger animals. So they make the bullets to do a job. But that has nothing to do with why they used lead on birds. It was just available, and what had always been used.

Steel & Tungsten are the best patterning pellets available, for the exact reasons you have explained. They are harder and don't change their shapes, meaning they fly as true as ever. Just a small blimish will make a pellet fly out of control more than anyone can imagine. I mean heck. Look at what a thread on a baseball can do at 70-80MPH, or a Knuckball at 50mph. Anybody that has seen one of these things standing 2-3ft from a plate knows exactly what we are talking about. Now just think of something going 1350fps. This seems pretty easy, and basic command since. But shooting something the size of a #2 pellet at a duck, would be about like shooting a projectile the size of a softball at a deer. The energy is produced by the changin of it's form. Don't really need that much energy on the much smaller game.

I know you have done a lot of reloading, but I got about 40 years of it myself. And by no means a expert. So again we agree to disagree, which is fine, I enjoy the discussion. So keep on reloading, its a great pastime. cooter
Last edited by cooter on Thu Apr 27, 2006 7:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby pennsyltucky » Thu Apr 27, 2006 7:32 pm

http://www.acfnewsource.org/environment ... llets.html

the only thing lead has over hevi is price. citori, we agree on most everything, but were gonna hafta agree to disagree here. i love this stuff. there's just no comparison. it patterns better, flys straighter (no flyers), it can be shot at 1500fps and still pattern better than lead, it carries more mass in a smaller pellet (7.5 hevi kills like 5 lead) so the shot cloud is much fuller so u can open up the choke for a better killing pattern, it doesnt flatten and pull feathers like lead, hevishot BBB's will knock a coyote off its feet at 100+ yards, and above all its non toxic, so i can shoot it at waterfowl.

it means that this fall, my wife can take her favorite gun (the 410 with an i/c choke) to go out with me and enjoy her time. and it means i can even get a few ducks or even geese with the flinter 20ga.

the shotgun wasnt really designed just for lead, it is for shooting "shot", thats anything from hevishot 5's to donkey turds......... u outta try it once, u would be impressed.
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Postby Citori12 » Fri Apr 28, 2006 12:07 pm

Because lead is illegal for waterfowl its a mute point..but I gotta tell ya the nickel plated shot does not deform very easily. Ask the pheasants I killed with them this year. Until steel became mandatory nickel plated shot performed flawlessly. Its hard enough for good pattern uniformity but was not so hard as to scratch barrels, bridge and shoot completely through birds without delivering shock factor. The harder the material is the less likely it will do anything but shoot through birds without stopping. I have heard the arguements but the only thing wrong with steel is it shoots through the birds so unless you are able to make head, wing, neck and lung hits the birds fall but do not know they are dead yet. Nails made good fodder for foxes and coyotes but I do not use shotguns on coyotes unless they are being a nusience on my back porch. Because I am semi-rural its is a good choice for vermin but the coyotes go wise and it really takes a good rifle to put one down now. I will say again, a shotgun is a 50 yard gun. Nails can be used for good patterns. Inside 50 yards anything actually works. Tungsten is heavier than lead and therefore requires larger payloads for pellet count. I am sure there will be another lead substitute before too long. And if I were wealthy enough I might even try the premuim stuff. But a few extra decoys and a new call will have a higher impact on my bag that tungsten...off course maybe I should try some in that ten gauge of mine.
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Postby pennsyltucky » Fri Apr 28, 2006 12:18 pm

ill send a coupla oz's if u would like to try it. i have hevi 6's. if u have mylar wraps, u can use almost any wad.
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Postby Citori12 » Fri Apr 28, 2006 2:27 pm

I really appreciate the offer but I think I should get some factory fodder and let em fly first. Putting them on a pattern board and doing some geletin penetration tests. I am just kinda finicky about spending 2.00 per round on ammo unless I am shooting a .600 nitro express.
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Postby CrackerJackShot » Fri Apr 28, 2006 2:33 pm

I guess the best solution would be to shoot the same duck with each and then ask the duck " Ok so which one was better?" Ok just kidding. But there are good qualities with each. Quite frankly though. I would RATHER shoot Hevi than Bismuth. For only one reason though, PRICE. If Bismuth was less then I would shoot Bismuth because it has some GREAT qualities. You just dont have to worry about Bismuth. Soft, but yet I have a feeling that a bigger percent of its weight goes into knocking down the bird. Hevi seems to be more like a shot that would slice through and make a wound channel about a millimeter wide. But seeing to it that Hevi shot is SO much hevier still and makes good patterns...... I have to go with Hevi now until they make something new or drop the price of bismuth.
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Postby Citori12 » Fri Apr 28, 2006 4:01 pm

Actually not a bad idea CJ. So let me ask my ducks in the freezer if they felt that steel is an inferior pellet to get shot with???? :laughing: :laughing: I will be they will agree they have no clue if bismith or tungsten is better all they know is they were on thier way south and saw some mighty fine buddies, heard some fine conversation coming from that group of birds decided to stop and join em for awhile and got ventilated with some hot steel, and are waiting for thier turn in the gravy now. :laughing: :laughing:
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Mylar

Postby Sagebrush » Fri Apr 28, 2006 9:50 pm

If you use a quality "heavy wall" wad like Sam 1's you do not need
Mylar wraps for Hevi-shot.

Only when you use the thin wall Euro wads etc. or you try to put shot past the wad.........

I have had no problems; however I only use a Mod. choke max. which
lets the wad through the muzzle with minimum friction unlike a full choke.

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Postby Duckman84 » Tue May 02, 2006 5:18 pm

Hevi-shot all the way. I don't use it duck hunting, too expensive, but I use it for turkey hunting and it works great.
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Postby thaner » Tue May 02, 2006 7:25 pm

Hevi is great stuff I am shooting it now until it is gone and then it is back to fast steel loads. I also have a little TM and TI left and they both work very good. I really like the TM. If I could buy Biz reasonable I would rather use that for waterfowl over anything I have tried. I can shoot it in any gun and wad and when I had it it was great stuff. I shot #4 and #5 for ducks and BB on geese. It was just like shooting lead again. I had no issues with fracturing of the pellets in the birds and I didn't see any evidence of it with the BB's on pattern paper.
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Postby pennsyltucky » Wed May 03, 2006 5:28 am

thaner wrote: It was just like shooting lead again.
todays steel loads are better than lead for waterfowl. this was written in 1983!!

IN PRACTICE

Numerous state conservation agencies — and the U.S. Department of the Interior itself — have conducted controlled studies of the performance of lead and steel shot in both duck and goose hunting. The research technique typically used was developed at Tulelake, California by the Department of the Interior during the 1977-78 and 1978-79 hunting seasons. In that test, over 2,200 hunters fired more than 40,000 steel and lead shot shells (without knowing which was which) and brought down a total of 4,182 whitefronted, snow, and cackling geese.

The hunters were given a random selection of steel and lead shells of various sizes and were asked to record the number of shots taken, the estimated range, and the effect (bagged, crippled, or missed). All birds that were visibly hit but not bagged were considered to be crippled.

In the Tulelake study, there was no significant difference found between lead and steel. For every 100 shots fired, the hunters were able to bag 17.5 geese (and cripple 7) at an average range of 46.4 yards. Nor did statistical differences show up in either bagging or crippling rates, whether BB, No. 1, No. 2, or No. 4 shot was used. (Interestingly enough, hunters regularly indicated more satisfaction with shell performance when they thought they'd been shooting lead . . . even though some who reported that fact had actually been using steel shot.)

The Missouri Department of Conservation has done a similar study, with duck hunting as the subject. During the 1979 waterfowl season at the Schell-Osage Wildlife Management Area, researchers had hunters shoot a mix of buffered and unbuffered No. 4 lead, No. 4 steel, and No. 2 steel shot. During that season, hunters bagged 20.6 ducks per 100 shots with unbuffered lead, 19.1 with buffered lead, 18.0 with No. 4 steel, and 17.4 with No. 2 steel. There was no recorded difference in the crippling rate. The results also showed that hunters were most likely to take a shot in the 30- to 40-yard range, and that their bag rate dropped considerably beyond that distance.

Other studies have provided similar results, with little or no difference in the bagging rate (in fact, steel has seemed to be more effective in some cases) and no significant difference in crippling. Thus one of the concerns about steel shot — that more birds may be wounded by the less energetic pellets — doesn't seem to be borne out in fact.
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Postby Merganser » Wed May 03, 2006 8:13 am

Cooter and Pennsyltucky, you are not going to out argue Citori12. He is like argueing with a donkey. He always has another "bray" to make. I bet I have hunted ducks longer and more than anyone on this message board and all I can say is I like Hevishot better than any other shells I have shot. I shot lead from 1958 until they outlawed it. I had a Browning A5 that was given to me by my dad, who was also a serious hunter. I shot 2-3/4 #5's or #6's for ducks and #2's for geese. When I had to start shooting steel shot, I started shooting #2's at ducks and could see a major difference in how less fell when I shot them. This had alot to do with me buying a Browning Goldhunter. I started shooting 3" shells and liked being able to change chokes. I still had trouble until they came out with HeviShot. HeviShot solved the problem. I honestly think I bust a duck and kill it better with HeviShot than anything else I have ever used.
I shoot HeviShot, 1-1/8 oz., #6's using an improved cylinder or modified choke by the way.
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Postby pennsyltucky » Wed May 03, 2006 9:13 am

i agree. im not really "argueing" tho, i just like a little friendly debate. have u ever tried steel 4's? they are much better than those 2's u were using. i feel that hevi is a real advantage in anything smaller than a 10ga. cuz 1 1/2oz of steel at 1600fps out of a 10ga is pretty much overkill already...... sorta :yes:

do u reload ur hevi? my reloads (hevi 6's) seem to pattern a bit wider (better) than the factory's did.
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Postby Merganser » Wed May 03, 2006 10:26 am

Yep, I do shoot some Winchester Supreme #4's, mostly when we are getting alot of Teal and I feel guilty shooting HeviShot at them. The Winchester Supreme is a 1550 fps shell and is pretty decent load (does not compare to HeviShot tho). Not sure I will be shooting as much HeviShot this season, though. I have been buying cases of HeviShot straight from HeviShot and getting it for $370/case but understand they are not selling direct anymore. Have you heard anything? Re: reloading, no I do not load my own.
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Postby thaner » Wed May 03, 2006 8:58 pm

There is no doubt about the ability of Hevi to perform. I have a bunch now I am using in #6, #4 and #2, but when I run out it is back to steel for cost and the fact that the new hand loads with the new powders are very good. I haven't shot a lot of the new steel but back in the day when it came out I can guarantee you I could tell the difference between steel and lead. I also shot high quality good patterning loads not the cheep stuff and there is a big difference. There is not way the old steel #2 duck loads could stand against my 1 3/8" #5 copper plated loads. If you tested a bunch of hunters with run of the mill lead loads and currently available good quality steel you may find not much difference but if you compare quality lead loads with the stuff we had to shoot at first there was a big difference. I still like biz. I never had a problem, it patterned very good and killed duck and geese great. A couple of years ago I was still shooting the last of my biz. #4 and #5’s with some guys that were shooting steel. They were amazed at the birds I was knocking down and they were all dead. Then I ran out about half way through the season and used up my left over steel loads from back about 5 or 6 years ago and it was like night and day. I was getting cripples and light hit birds just like everyone I was hunting with. Last year I got a great deal on hevi loads and it was back to dead birds and no cripples again. I love hevi but biz. is nice because you can load it in anything with standard components and no fear about damage to your small bore or older guns. If one was a lot cheaper than the other I would go with the cheep one and if they were both cheaper I would shoot them both dependent on the gun and ga.
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