Back me up on this...

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Back me up on this...

Postby steelcommander » Fri Jun 30, 2006 11:29 am

I recently reloaded some 1 oz. #4 steel shot loads at 1475 fps for the upcoming duck and pheasant seasons (I know it's early but I got bored). I usually go with a bigger payload but I'm trying something new. A lot of my friends are telling me to throw them away because 1 oz. loads aren't enough to take down ducks and pheasants. But I happen to think that they will. What do you think?
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Postby VTduckman » Fri Jun 30, 2006 1:17 pm

all it takes is one bb, you should be fine :thumbsup:
Season Totals-
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2 Mallards
2 Blacks
15 Green Wing
5 Wood Ducks
1 Can.
1 Pintail
Hooded Merganser
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Postby Smackaduck » Fri Jun 30, 2006 3:00 pm

Im sure someone will agree with you. Sure you could kill birds with one ounce loads, but I prefer 1 3/8.
If they're dumb enough to be lured in by plastic you're really just doing them a favor.

Know your target before you pull the trigger.

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Postby cooter » Fri Jun 30, 2006 4:35 pm

smackaduck wrote:Im sure someone will agree with you. Sure you could kill birds with one ounce loads, but I prefer 1 3/8.


I agree smackaduck. What is your reasoning for cutting your payload like that ? ? ?

It can be done, but I don't see a advantage. Dove would be one thing, but waterfowl is hard enough to kill with the faster, bigger payloads. A smaller load to boost the speed, or a smaller load to let a wife or kid shoot without the recoil, I can understand the reasoning to something along these lines.

Skeet shooters cut the payload to work on improving their shooting eye, small pay load, small target, exact shooting. But for hunting, I think you open up a much higher cripple count than which is the down side, and see NO advantage for the shooter. Just my thoughts. cooter
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Postby steelcommander » Fri Jun 30, 2006 5:43 pm

I really don't know. Now that you mention it, it really doesn't make a whole lot of sense, does it? I think I originally started looking at 1 oz. recipes in order to gain more speed, but I ended up using a recipe that used stuff I had laying around.[/code]
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Postby NV Guide » Fri Jun 30, 2006 6:43 pm

Your load will work fine, we are using less than that in 28ga and 410 bore.
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Postby Sagebrush » Fri Jun 30, 2006 6:44 pm

# 4's !! Gee I only use # 5's for 92 ducks last year.

They are great over decoys !!

As for uplandgame, you better get them in close before they get
past 50 yards.

The only reason the other hunters shoot bigger pellets or bigger
loads, is because they are shooting birds at maximum yardage or
the gun fit, choke or shooting ability is SUBSTANDARD !

Later Ed
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Postby cooter » Fri Jun 30, 2006 8:07 pm

NV Guide wrote:Your load will work fine, we are using less than that in 28ga and 410 bore.


A slingshot with 5 pellets would do fine also, if you pull the rubbers hard enough and hit them with a pellet. But I still have the same question. Why would someone shoot a under load or ga at game ? ? ?

I don't think it is a matter of will it kill the birds. The answer is Yes. But I just think these things are more of a matter of why increasse your odds of crippling ducks or not even know you hit them, where they just fly off and die. Shooting ducks or geese with heavy down feathers, with a small load and small shotgun, just doesn't make since. Unless you are not able to shoot the larger guns. My wife shoots a SBE, but I cut the round she shoots, because she just doesn't like to get rocked back.

I mean, hunting Ducks & Geese with a 28ga, or 410, or with a small load just doesn't seem to have a reason, unless there is a physical problem. If you are looking to show your shooting skills, then do it where it can be appreciated, in some sort of shooting competition.

All of this get down to a personal call for each hunter. But I do know one thing. If grizzly Bears come decoying in, you wouldn't be shooting him with a 28ga, or 410, or with a small load. Mainly because it could be your @$$, if you weren't dead on. But with Ducks and geese, if you are not dead on, you don't even know if birds are flying off and dying later.

I'm an old man, and don't believe in shooting passing birds, and everything I do shoot is decoying up close and personal. I do think that I could shoot a lesser shell than I do for the most part. But it is all about the questionable shot that we take every now and then. Some days they just ain't working like they normally do. But I doubt that we are carrying a couple guns or different loads for different distances. So you end up just doing the best you can. So I rather be a little over loaded up close, than to be under loaded at a farther distance.

It all gets down to a personal opinion and perfernce. But I'll bet you wouldn't go Grizzly Hunting with a 22cal. So I believe that the ducks deserve the same respect. Just my personal opinion. cooter

BTW: I shoot #5's at the ducks, but in a 12ga - 1 3/8oz load. I don't really pay a lot of attention to a 1oz recipe, but I THINK, I have recipes that will run 1oz loads at about 1700fps. I think that is too fast, but getting it up to 1550-1600fps would be good if your going to shoot 1oz loads. Might as well get something that will benefit ya.
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Postby pennsyltucky » Sat Jul 01, 2006 6:48 pm

a 1 oz load of steel #4's is better for small birds than the 1 3/8oz load.

heres why.

theres 190 pellets in the 1 oz load of 4's. thats as many as 1 1/2 oz of lead 4's. and at 1500fps they have as much killing power. 1 3/8 0z of steel 4's is a waste of time in a 12. in a 10 its got speed and works well with an open choke so u dont explode the birds, but a 12 cant get it up there. and its the same pellet count as a 2oz load of lead 4's. how many of u use 2oz loads of lead on ur quail hunts? steel also penetrates the bird better than lead since it doesnt pull feathers and slices right in.

u will also be a better shooter with the fast steel shells with only 7/8 or 1 oz instead of the slow lead shot. take ur light steel shells out and show ur buddies whats up. u will be surprised.


steel is a whole different world of shooting from lead. u CANNOT compare the two. 7/8oz load of lead is way to light for real shooting, but its a good duck load in steel. its like how a sports car runs on 93 octane compared to diesel fuel. the gas engine makes the diesel fuel look REALLY bad, when its the user thats at fault.
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Postby NV Guide » Sun Jul 02, 2006 9:56 pm

As to using the 28 or 410 for waterfowl. If you have an adequate number of pellets is a 30" circle, whatever you think that number should be, then any more becomes unnecessary. Lets suppose that number to be 60, then if my load/choke combo will place that many pellets inside that circle at a given distance and the velocity is still sufficient, say 500fps. Then that load combo is acceptable to me and to the waterfowl. As to cripples, show me a load will never cripple anything.

So we understand each other, all of our hunting is done over decoys and we limit our range based on load and shooter capability. we are not trying to impress anyone, and we have done our share and then some to promote wildlife out of respect.
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Postby thaner » Sun Jul 02, 2006 10:47 pm

It is all about patterning and performance. It is not about how much shot you can put out of the gun, but how much you can put on the target. If 1oz will pattern it is fine. If 1 3/8 will not pattern it is not fine. There are 1 oz loads that will out pattern 1 3/8 dependent on the load and the gun choke combo. Fast steel kills. Lots of slow steel cripples. I have seen many 3" BB and BBB loads out pattern and kill over 3 1/2" loads. One of the best patterning and killing loads I have seen is steel is a 2 3/4" buffered BB load in a gold metal hull an old timer used to reload. It putts all those BB's in a 30" circle at 40+ yards and nicely distributed with lots of velocity. My factory 3 1/2" loads couldn't duplicate his in quality and killing power so what good were the extra pellets?

My pet 2 3/4" 1oz 20 ga. #5 copper plated load will do the same. Makes the jaws drop when the pheasant are crushed by it when the 12's and their heavy loads failed to drop them. I am not surprised because I have seen it on paper and I know what it will due.

Every serious study will show you that more pellets doesn't automatically equal better fuller patterns. Also more pellets can lead to more flyers and longer shot strings, which eliminate many of the extra pellets or makes the remaining ones less effective.

I say put your pattern on paper and lets see it. That’s what I do and I see no universal truth in more pellets equaling better performing loads.

Once you have sufficient pellets with sufficient energy to consistently fill the pattern and kill the target you are set. More is not necessary and no better.

Let's not put down the 1 oz. load based on pellet count, because there is far more to the issue.
More ammo! I need to shoot something!
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Postby cooter » Mon Jul 03, 2006 5:13 pm

NV Guide wrote:As to using the 28 or 410 for waterfowl. If you have an adequate number of pellets is a 30" circle, whatever you think that number should be, then any more becomes unnecessary. Lets suppose that number to be 60, then if my load/choke combo will place that many pellets inside that circle at a given distance and the velocity is still sufficient, say 500fps. Then that load combo is acceptable to me and to the waterfowl. As to cripples, show me a load will never cripple anything.

So we understand each other, all of our hunting is done over decoys and we limit our range based on load and shooter capability. we are not trying to impress anyone, and we have done our share and then some to promote wildlife out of respect.



It was not meant to be a crotch kicking, or questioning anyones ethics. Just a point. I don't get the chance to do ANY Upland hunting, so I have nothing for those loads. But 60 or 90 pellets in a 30" pattern, THEN stretched out in a 6'-8' shot string, is not a bunch of pellets on the target when it flies thru the pattern. If your shooting at a standing turkey, you can shoot at a target, and get a count of so many hits in a 30" circle, and that would be accurate. If you are shooting a birds coming straight in, then it is like shooting a Still Target, and all pellets would count. But if the target give you a angle, then Shot String applies, and it is the thing that I am not seeing figured into the # of hits. The # of hits on a flying bird that is moving thru the pattern would not accurate, nor be close to 60 pellets. The Shot String is what screws the pattern of a small gauge gun, or a small load, especially when the target is crossing at any angle.

But it is a personal chocie of the gauge and load a guy would like to hunt with. Many guys are just getting into reloading, and may not understand exactly what is really happening. Most of the time you CAN'T have everything. It is usually Speed or Load, or settling for something in the middle that will do a little of both. You must give one to get the other. cooter
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Postby NV Guide » Mon Jul 03, 2006 6:22 pm

Cooter-- no offence taken. I just want to be as clear as I can.

Your logic on a moving target and a moving shot string sounds good, but when I put the pencil to it i'm not sure it works.

Lets say we have a duck @ 30MPH and a 5' shot string @ 500FPS.

That means that it would take the duck only .057 seconds to travel 30 inches, pretty fast I'll admit but that shot string only takes .01 seconds to travel it's full length of 60 inches or about as much time as it takes the duck to travel about 5.2 inches. So in less than one duck length the whole shot string has passed the duck.

I agree that pellet count on target is everything, we use 71/2 hevi to increase overall count and then pattern to determine the lethal limit of a given load also taking into account retained velocity to insure adequate penetration.


PS somebody check my math I feel kinda rusty.
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Postby cooter » Mon Jul 03, 2006 8:22 pm

Well, with me being a old man, and most of my thinking coming from the day when lead had a 12'-15' Shot String, and 1050fps, it did make a much bigger difference. But while out building on my deck this afternoon, I got to thinking on the same lines as you are saying.

With Steel, the Shot String is 6'-8', and steel is running a quick 1500fps. I stand corrected, and can see how that the Shoit String is not as big a player in the Steel. But I still not sure about the smaller loads. I do agree that most smaller loads pattern better than bigger loads do to there not being as many banging around as they are leaving the gun. I don't have my books in the house that tell the # of pellets in a 1oz and 1 3/8oz. But if there was 150 pellets in a 1 oz, and 185 in a 1 3/8oz. You pattern your gun and get all 150 in a 30" ring, and on the 1 3/8oz you get 6-9 flier that are outside the 30". You are still putting more pellets in the 30" ring than with the 1 oz, which in turn mean more dead birds.

There are the good shooters, but most shooters need all the advantage they can put in there direction. I will say that reloaders tend to do more shooting than the rest of the hunters, which I would like to think put the reloaders a little above average in shooting. But day in, and day out, I think we can all stand to have as much help as we can get. But I'm getting old, and can't see as good as you young guys. :cool: cooter
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Postby NV Guide » Mon Jul 03, 2006 8:52 pm

Cooter, I always enjoy the discussions here because I always learn something and really have to think. There is hardly a gathering place for hunters that are more informed than those here. Even though the old timers sometimes get unruly :toofunny: :laughing: :thumbsup: think sage and c12

I'm just old enough to have shot lead long enough to be ticked :pissed: when the change came.

As far as the number of pellets in a pattern to be effective I believe that Tom Roster did quite an in depth scientific study on that. I'll try and dig up his specific numbers.

Thanks
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Postby pennsyltucky » Tue Jul 04, 2006 9:27 am

another plus for the smaller but faster payload is that most of the pellets go clean thru, instead of hangin around for me to break a tooth on.... :smile:
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Postby ohsobad_hunter » Fri Jul 07, 2006 12:23 pm

I killed several ducks last year with 1 oz loads. Of course, they were within 30 yards. The shells were given to me, but I normally shoot a 1 3/8 load for more energy.
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