Various shells cut open + wad info

Interact with others on shot gun shells, reloading, ballistics, chokes, or anything that has to do with your shooting.

Moderators: donell67, Ohio Wildfowler, NV Guide, pennsyltucky

Various shells cut open + wad info

Postby BBK » Wed Aug 29, 2012 2:22 pm

This post is not meant to bash any brand, nor promote any brand. This is simply a post showing what I found today when cutting open shells. I always make a post and show what I find for people who want to know what is inside but dont want to cut open a shell and waste money.


Now. Lets talk info.

1st shell cut open was an xpert 3" 1 1/4 #2. You can see that none of the shot is round, and quite a bit of it is off sized. Some of it is even a different color, not sure what this is about.. maybe my shell got wet somehow. No "welding slag" in this one, all are shot shaped. The wad in the xpert is the same wad that was in the drylok. Sort of flimsy and pretty thin, however not as thin as a lead shot wad. There is a gas seal below the wad.
Image


2nd shell is a winchester super-x drylok 3" 1 1/4 #2. You can see that the shot is pretty much all the same size, some of it is slightly off but not enough to be considered anything bigger or smaller. A few of them are not round and have dimples. There was also two pieces that were completely flat on two sides. I have never seen this in any shell so I took a good picture. Same wad as xpert, also a gas seal below it.
Image
Image

3rd shell is a federal speed-shok 3" 1 1/4 #4. When I cut open this shell the shot spilled onto my counter, but I think I retrieved all of the shot. This should be noted though, because there might have been something in there that was off and I lost it. All of the shot is perfectly round, and all of it is #4 sized. It also has a darker color to it (not plated shot), not sure why that is. The wad in this one was surprisingly thick. Very thick actually, if I had to guess probably twice as thick as in the winchester wads. Not sure if this makes any difference in the shell quality, but it surely would help with keeping the steel off the barrel. No gas seal below the wad, the gas seal is built into the wad.
Image
Image

I cut this one open a while ago, thought I would add it to the topic. Xpert 3" 1 1/4 #1. No round pellets, a few tiny (not as much as the #2), and the same green wad.
Image


Thanks for reading, and dont hesitate to post what you think. I think I have been fair and posted all the facts as I found them. I will do another post like this with the next shells I cut open and show what I find.
_____________________________________________________________________

This is cannon's info regarding wads found in shells. I thought it was very good info so I added it to the top.

cannon wrote:Image

Left to right:

1. Bismuth Cartridge Co. Used lead-type wads and, in my experience, sucked.

2. Baschieri & Pellagri. Used in Kent shotgun shells. Thin plastic walls. Typically work well in mobil-choked guns such as 390's, SBE's, etc. IMHO, these are the most "neutral" wads available, i.e., they will seal well in overbored barrels and yet don't blow patterns with standard bores. They tend to give solid patterns across the board. Not the best patterns, but not the worst, in almost any shotgun.

3. LBC 43. Reloaders only. Thin walled with cocentric horizontal rings ensure a good seal.

4. Estate. Uses the same thick plastic wads you'll see in Fed's. Tends to be easier to find decent patterns in an overbored gun.

5, 11. Winchester DryLok. Use a two-piece wad with a flat-bottomed shotcup and a separate gas seal.

6. SAM I. Reloading Specialties wad that uses vertical ribs to reinforce the very thin plastic. Typically runs low pressures and fast loads, and they tend to produce excellent patterns in standard bored (especially italian) guns.

7. TUPRW 12. Precision Reloading's wad. Thick plastic, very similar to Fed, Estate, Remington, etc.

8. Kent Cartridge. See #2, above. Note the presence of a LARGE volume of rust in the wad. These shells DON'T like water, period.

9. Remington. Very similar to Federal and Estate offerings. Also closely resembles the TUPRW 12 (above) and the Ballistic Products Multi-metal (below). Good in fat barrels.

10. Ballistic Products Multi Metal. Thick plastic wad. Differs from all of the above because the shotcup is tapered from its mouth to the base where it meets the gas seal, resulting in a somewhat diminished capacity. Again, loved by fat barrels everywhere. My 390 and my wife's Xtrema 2 hate 'em.

11. DryLok. See #5, above.

12, 13. Federal Black Cloud and an after-market clone. I haven't been able to work up a load that patterns worth a hoot in either.


________________________________________________________________

Info from JuniorPre 360

JuniorPre 360 wrote:Image
Image

I'm sure that these pictures are so big. I tried to resize them but after waiting for photobucket's ads to load, slowing down my uploads, I didn't want to waste more time and resize them.

I opened one shell from the case I bought this year and one shell I had in my waders from last year. Anyways what I found was the shot is all pretty much the same size. I know in the picture most of them look lop-sided. That might be because the picture was taken so close, or they're shiney, the shot's shadow, or whatever. They aren't way bad but they are just a little mis shapen. But they will still roll around in the bowl. Seeing this doesn't really worry me about not killing ducks anymore. I don't regret buying 2 cases but I may look into Fedrals next season. Oh, the wad looked like it was normal thickness. Any thicker and I think you wouldn't be able to fit more shot in it. But I'm not way familiar with this. You can see in the second pic the wad is a little transparent.


Hatchbox90 wrote:Here goes nothing, this thread made me want to look inside of some hevi shot I recently purchased for patterning, so I cut 2 shells open. There is a mixture of flax seed in the shot along with what feels like silicone pellets(very small.) Those 3 things make up whats inside of the wad. I didn't remove the wads and inspect them for thickness, I also do not have a digital scale to weigh the shot. I did weigh the 1 3/4oz shot on a scale my wife uses for cooking and it came out to about what the payload says on the shell.

Now for pictures, ignore the #4 hevi goose on the plate, the first photos will be a 3" 1 1/2oz hevi goose in 2 shot

first picture is the flax seed and the silicone? not exactly sure what it is. sorry for cell phone pic on this one
Image
second picture is of the shot shape, VERY few of the pellets were actually round, most of them had "welding slag" on them
Image
Image
proof of shell dissection :)
Image
Here is the 3 1/2" #4 shot in 1 3/4oz, this had less odd looking pellets, but also had very bad "welding slag" on most of the pellets
Image
I didnt count the pellets in the 3" shell, the 1 3/4oz had about 230 pellets.
Image

Maybe these can kill soo well because of the shape of the pellets, or Maybe EM doesn't figure somebody will cut open a $4.50 shell just to look at it :(


eastcoastsoxfan wrote:Only factory shell I could find. Rem 3" 1 1/4oz #2

Image

Heres the plastic beads they use as a spacer

Image

shot and beads in hand. the shot is really nice, everything round.

Image

weight of shot 523.8 grains kinda short!

Image

weight of shot and beads 538.8 grains

Image

and the wad

Image

not impressed by the weight! but shot looks quality
Last edited by BBK on Sun Sep 02, 2012 12:29 pm, edited 9 times in total.
Why do I shoot 3.5" for geese? Because they don't make a 4" yet!
BBK
hunter
 
Posts: 3477
Joined: Mon Oct 24, 2011 11:15 pm


Re: Various shells cut open

Postby BenellisbeII » Wed Aug 29, 2012 2:36 pm

Very interesting to see that, I was never a fan of the Xperts myself and after seeing that I will never buy a box again. I'l stick to my Federals and EM products. :thumbsup:
User avatar
BenellisbeII
hunter
 
Posts: 251
Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2011 12:40 pm
Location: SE, Wisconsin

Re: Various shells cut open

Postby The Shovla » Wed Aug 29, 2012 2:46 pm

Thanks for the pictures. Very interesting to see the differences in like-priced shells. Very helpful :thumbsup:
User avatar
The Shovla
hunter
 
Posts: 210
Joined: Thu Sep 01, 2011 6:36 pm
Location: Southern Wisconsin

Re: Various shells cut open

Postby cootlover » Wed Aug 29, 2012 6:25 pm

That first pic had some jacked up shot .
cootlover
hunter
 
Posts: 1146
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2011 8:39 pm

Re: Various shells cut open

Postby eastcoastsoxfan » Wed Aug 29, 2012 6:35 pm

BBK, next time you should weigh the shot to, see whos giving 1 1/4oz.
"The old school hunters shoot what they shoot and kill as many as they always have, the newbies have their 3.5."
User avatar
eastcoastsoxfan
hunter
 
Posts: 1025
Joined: Sat May 29, 2010 4:17 pm
Location: Nova Scotia

Re: Various shells cut open

Postby BBK » Wed Aug 29, 2012 6:57 pm

eastcoastsoxfan wrote:BBK, next time you should weigh the shot to, see whos giving 1 1/4oz.


Noted! Never thought about that!
Why do I shoot 3.5" for geese? Because they don't make a 4" yet!
BBK
hunter
 
Posts: 3477
Joined: Mon Oct 24, 2011 11:15 pm

Re: Various shells cut open

Postby Columbia Basin Local » Wed Aug 29, 2012 8:41 pm

Most useful post in a long time. Would love to see a few other shells in that price point. Never thought to do it myself but ya got my interest up. Wish I could learn to post pics. Got about 30 loads that I could spare one to the cause. Well done :thumbsup:
"We're calling, because the birds won't respond to texts."- Jim Ronquest, RNT-V
Columbia Basin, home of the sagebrush duck blind!
User avatar
Columbia Basin Local
hunter
 
Posts: 182
Joined: Sun Aug 07, 2011 3:16 am
Location: Tri-Cites,WA

Re: Various shells cut open

Postby BBK » Wed Aug 29, 2012 8:43 pm

Columbia Basin Local wrote:Most useful post in a long time. Would love to see a few other shells in that price point. Never thought to do it myself but ya got my interest up. Wish I could learn to post pics. Got about 30 loads that I could spare one to the cause. Well done :thumbsup:


Would love for anyone else that has a couple extra shells that wouldnt mind slicing one to add to the thread! To post pictures, sign up for a photobucket account at photobucket.com. It is free and easy. Then simply upload your pictures and post the link between the [img] tags here.
Why do I shoot 3.5" for geese? Because they don't make a 4" yet!
BBK
hunter
 
Posts: 3477
Joined: Mon Oct 24, 2011 11:15 pm

Re: Various shells cut open

Postby Swamp Gas » Wed Aug 29, 2012 9:34 pm

I noticed the same results with the expterts. I also gas issues with RSI steel shot a few years ago. Most shot was round. But a few cylinder shaped pieces were in every bag. This was only with #2. I now stick with precision reloading steel for handloads.
User avatar
Swamp Gas
hunter
 
Posts: 739
Joined: Thu Apr 17, 2008 6:39 pm
Location: Minnesota

Re: Various shells cut open

Postby mikeyLikesIt » Wed Aug 29, 2012 10:06 pm

Wonder if the Federal shot has been coated in graphite, which gives it a darker color.
mikeyLikesIt
hunter
 
Posts: 58
Joined: Wed Aug 11, 2010 8:13 pm
Location: Wyoming

Re: Various shells cut open

Postby g_maxson » Thu Aug 30, 2012 8:25 am

Always interesting to see what falls out when you cut a shell open. I've never seen any difference in my killing ability based on one brand or steel vs another, so although fun to look at, not very useful IMO.
User avatar
g_maxson
hunter
 
Posts: 615
Joined: Mon Aug 11, 2008 6:46 am
Location: Michigan

Re: Various shells cut open

Postby cannon » Thu Aug 30, 2012 8:57 am

Nicely done, BBK. Thank you. :clapping:
Smell that? Smells like sumthin died in here.
User avatar
cannon
hunter
 
Posts: 4355
Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2008 12:17 pm
Location: At the stop sign in the ditch at Byers Farm, unlocking the gate.

Re: Various shells cut open

Postby aunt betty » Thu Aug 30, 2012 9:06 am

I posted a thread called "why you don't buy experts" or something like that about 18 months ago. Has pictures of them cut open. Same results.

Since then I have reconsidered and started using experts exclusively.

If I'm sitting there counting dollar bills coming out the end of my barrel like some shells we could use cost...I tend to not shoot as much and miss opportunities because I'm assacheap.
INTERNET CREDIBILITY is...an OXYMORON. :moon:
User avatar
aunt betty
memberhip was not approved
 
Posts: 11696
Joined: Fri Nov 19, 2010 8:09 pm
Location: Go HOGS!

Re: Various shells cut open

Postby BBK » Thu Aug 30, 2012 9:53 am

Added wad info.
Why do I shoot 3.5" for geese? Because they don't make a 4" yet!
BBK
hunter
 
Posts: 3477
Joined: Mon Oct 24, 2011 11:15 pm

Re: Various shells cut open

Postby Fowl'in up NORTH » Thu Aug 30, 2012 10:19 am

Aunt B you know you can get fed blue boxes for cheaper than experts right?
Fowl'in up NORTH
hunter
 
Posts: 550
Joined: Sun Feb 06, 2011 12:11 am
Location: twin citys , Minnesota

Re: Various shells cut open

Postby cannon » Thu Aug 30, 2012 11:03 am

BBK wrote:Added wad info.


My experience has been that the thinner wad/gas seal perform extremely well in Remington guns. Up until 2001, all I ever shot was a remington 870, and the patterns out of a Winchester shell beat anything else I tried. I never liked Xperts in the field, but I think that was because they always held a good 25% of pellets that were undersised (by 2 pellet sizes or more) and I think that thinned the pattern at ranges where the size would matter.

I'd call 'em a toss-up (the wads, that is) between over-sized bores, where patterning is concerned. The thicker plastic wads seal up better in my invector + guns, but the gas seal probably would make up the difference with the Win's. I've never patterned the Fed's out of an overbored gun, but I've patterned a lot of the after-market wads from BPI and precision reloading, which appear to be very similar to me, and they do very well.
Smell that? Smells like sumthin died in here.
User avatar
cannon
hunter
 
Posts: 4355
Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2008 12:17 pm
Location: At the stop sign in the ditch at Byers Farm, unlocking the gate.

Re: Various shells cut open

Postby BBK » Thu Aug 30, 2012 11:12 am

I dont know what effects the wad actually has on the pattern or performance. I just post what I see and let you guys figure out for yourself what is good and what is bad.
Why do I shoot 3.5" for geese? Because they don't make a 4" yet!
BBK
hunter
 
Posts: 3477
Joined: Mon Oct 24, 2011 11:15 pm

Re: Various shells cut open

Postby Columbia Basin Local » Thu Aug 30, 2012 11:42 am

Hey Cannon, would you take some time and run down a basic list of what manufactures use what type of wads. Ya know, in the beginning of my patterning trips I never even considered how important the wad was in the patterning process. I would appreciate it and I think others could really learn something and save some time selecting shells to pattern. :beer:
"We're calling, because the birds won't respond to texts."- Jim Ronquest, RNT-V
Columbia Basin, home of the sagebrush duck blind!
User avatar
Columbia Basin Local
hunter
 
Posts: 182
Joined: Sun Aug 07, 2011 3:16 am
Location: Tri-Cites,WA

Re: Various shells cut open

Postby Frank Lopez » Thu Aug 30, 2012 12:06 pm

BBK,

Good job on the differences between the various loads. I'd bet that if you were to cut open any shells from other manufacturers you'd likely get as many surprises. Funny how we like to believe that when we buy a box of 1 1/4oz #2s at 1500fps we tend to believe that we are going to be getting 156 pellets of very round, precisely .15 diameter steel pellets that will trip the chronograph at 1500fps at exactly 3 feet from the muzzle. Has to be, truth in advertizing and all that! Of course, manufacturing is subject to tolerances, and SAAMI spells them out. The specs are pretty fairly restrictive, too, if you've ever read them.

But the truth of the matters is that properly sized almost any load will work with acceptable reliablity inside of 40 yards. And regardless of what our machismo tells us, 40 yards is about as far as the large majority of us can connect at. He11, most overestimate yardages anyway, so anything that's a legitimate 40 yards is often chalked up as being too far for a shot.

Patterns kill birds, and even the worst loads I've ever tested will deliver killing patterns out to at least 35 yards when properly choked. The thing I've found with waterfowl loads is that the promotional stuff, the Xperts, et al, will kill well enough within 40 yards. The mid range stuff, Drylock, Remington NitroSteel, etc, will generally pattern a little tighter and more consistantly and hold together a little longer. For the most part, these loads use good quality round shot that is fairly uniform in size and shape. The premium loads, in my opinion, are pretty much gimmicks who's only purpose is to separate pictures of dead presidents from your wallet. I've never seen these loads to offer any particular advantage over the mid range stuff. In fact, in many cases, at longer ranges (50 yards and beyond) they lag behind those loads.

The bottom line is that the ammo manufacturers know this. But, their purpose is to make money, not necessarily to provide you with the best tools to kill ducks. They know that glitz sells and that there is a whole army of waterfowlers who will buy anything, and I mean anything, that they believe will kill them additional ducks. They (the ammo manufacturers) are more than happy to to not only supply that, but they will gladly profess a whole litany of reasons why it works!

Frank
I feel slightly sorry for a man who has never patterned his gun, who has no idea how far his chosen load will retain killing penetration. But I'm extremely sorry for the ducks he shoots at beyond the killing range of his gun and load - Bob Brister
User avatar
Frank Lopez
hunter
 
Posts: 3011
Joined: Wed Feb 03, 2010 4:34 pm
Location: Long Island New York

Re: Various shells cut open

Postby cannon » Thu Aug 30, 2012 1:18 pm

Columbia Basin Local wrote:Hey Cannon, would you take some time and run down a basic list of what manufactures use what type of wads. Ya know, in the beginning of my patterning trips I never even considered how important the wad was in the patterning process. I would appreciate it and I think others could really learn something and save some time selecting shells to pattern. :beer:


Sure. IMHO, when starting off to develop a load for the field, there are certain generalities that will serve as starting points for how to find a well-patterning load. For example, in my browning silver, I know that 1 1/8 oz loads at 1,400 - 1,500 are the easiest to whip into a good pattern. For my 390, its a 1-oz load that easiest, etc. At the top of that list is how a specific brand of wad will behave in a general type of gun. My experience has been that over-sized barrels need wads that will expand to develop an effective seal for good patterns. Conversely, I find that skinny bores tend to like loose, fast, thin wads. That's not to say that you can't use the exact opposite and find an excellent load, but rather that I can save a lot of frustration and get to what I'm looking for much more quickly if I go with a general rule.

Off the top of my head, the commercial load that sticks out immediately is Kent Cartridge. They use Baschieri & Pellagri wads, which are the exact same as those sold at BPI under the name CSD ("cushioned steel driver"). They're a much thinner, softer plastic wad that what you'll see with any of the older manufacturers. Here are some examples:

Image

Left to right:

1. Bismuth Cartridge Co. Used lead-type wads and, in my experience, sucked.

2. Baschieri & Pellagri. Used in Kent shotgun shells. Thin plastic walls. Typically work well in mobil-choked guns such as 390's, SBE's, etc. IMHO, these are the most "neutral" wads available, i.e., they will seal well in overbored barrels and yet don't blow patterns with standard bores. They tend to give solid patterns across the board. Not the best patterns, but not the worst, in almost any shotgun.

3. LBC 43. Reloaders only. Thin walled with cocentric horizontal rings ensure a good seal.

4. Estate. Uses the same thick plastic wads you'll see in Fed's. Tends to be easier to find decent patterns in an overbored gun.

5, 11. Winchester DryLok. Use a two-piece wad with a flat-bottomed shotcup and a separate gas seal.

6. SAM I. Reloading Specialties wad that uses vertical ribs to reinforce the very thin plastic. Typically runs low pressures and fast loads, and they tend to produce excellent patterns in standard bored (especially italian) guns.

7. TUPRW 12. Precision Reloading's wad. Thick plastic, very similar to Fed, Estate, Remington, etc.

8. Kent Cartridge. See #2, above. Note the presence of a LARGE volume of rust in the wad. These shells DON'T like water, period.

9. Remington. Very similar to Federal and Estate offerings. Also closely resembles the TUPRW 12 (above) and the Ballistic Products Multi-metal (below). Good in fat barrels.

10. Ballistic Products Multi Metal. Thick plastic wad. Differs from all of the above because the shotcup is tapered from its mouth to the base where it meets the gas seal, resulting in a somewhat diminished capacity. Again, loved by fat barrels everywhere. My 390 and my wife's Xtrema 2 hate 'em.

11. DryLok. See #5, above.

12, 13. Federal Black Cloud and an after-market clone. I haven't been able to work up a load that patterns worth a hoot in either.
Smell that? Smells like sumthin died in here.
User avatar
cannon
hunter
 
Posts: 4355
Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2008 12:17 pm
Location: At the stop sign in the ditch at Byers Farm, unlocking the gate.

Re: Various shells cut open

Postby JuniorPre 360 » Thu Aug 30, 2012 1:43 pm

I'm doing this tonight when I get home. I always buy Xpert because it doesn't matter to me. But I didn't know that the shot was so bad. If you don't mind, later tonight I'd like to post my results as well so you have the opinion of someone that has ALWAYS shot Xperts and is a "fan" of them. If my results are amazing with no problems for some reason, my purpose wasn't to prove anyone wrong. This is very interesting to me now because I buy them so much. But I have a question. Will the shot size difference effect penetration as far as killing or wounding the duck?
A BAD DAY AT THE MARSH BEATS A GOOD DAY AT WORK.
killwoodies101 wrote:your a dudshe bag! You dont own the river your dont own any property around it.. Its just as mush mine and any other tom **** and harry's as it is yours !! get a life share what is yours or stop hunting
User avatar
JuniorPre 360
hunter
 
Posts: 2893
Joined: Sun May 15, 2011 12:40 pm
Location: Canal de Panama

Re: Various shells cut open

Postby Columbia Basin Local » Thu Aug 30, 2012 1:49 pm

Once again Cannon, you don't disappoint! That is an amazing amount of work you must of put in to come up with that list. Definetly appreciate your efforts. Exactly what I wanted to know. :thumbsup: Hope I can pass it forward and contribute something worthy in the future.
"We're calling, because the birds won't respond to texts."- Jim Ronquest, RNT-V
Columbia Basin, home of the sagebrush duck blind!
User avatar
Columbia Basin Local
hunter
 
Posts: 182
Joined: Sun Aug 07, 2011 3:16 am
Location: Tri-Cites,WA

Re: Various shells cut open

Postby BBK » Thu Aug 30, 2012 1:50 pm

Post them up! More pictures and info the better!
Why do I shoot 3.5" for geese? Because they don't make a 4" yet!
BBK
hunter
 
Posts: 3477
Joined: Mon Oct 24, 2011 11:15 pm

Re: Various shells cut open

Postby cannon » Thu Aug 30, 2012 2:00 pm

Columbia Basin Local wrote:Once again Cannon, you don't disappoint! That is an amazing amount of work you must of put in to come up with that list. Definetly appreciate your efforts. Exactly what I wanted to know. :thumbsup: Hope I can pass it forward and contribute something worthy in the future.


Not much work at all actually, just took a while dodging telephone calls to get the pic posted. I labeled all those wads back in '07 and stuck 'em in a bag so that I could remember what wad each shell used.
Smell that? Smells like sumthin died in here.
User avatar
cannon
hunter
 
Posts: 4355
Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2008 12:17 pm
Location: At the stop sign in the ditch at Byers Farm, unlocking the gate.

Re: Various shells cut open

Postby BBK » Thu Aug 30, 2012 2:12 pm

cannon wrote:
Columbia Basin Local wrote:Once again Cannon, you don't disappoint! That is an amazing amount of work you must of put in to come up with that list. Definetly appreciate your efforts. Exactly what I wanted to know. :thumbsup: Hope I can pass it forward and contribute something worthy in the future.


Not much work at all actually, just took a while dodging telephone calls to get the pic posted. I labeled all those wads back in '07 and stuck 'em in a bag so that I could remember what wad each shell used.


That info isnt going to cost us a $150 fee is it? :lol3: :lol3:
Why do I shoot 3.5" for geese? Because they don't make a 4" yet!
BBK
hunter
 
Posts: 3477
Joined: Mon Oct 24, 2011 11:15 pm

Next

Return to Shotshell, Reloading, Ballistics, & Chokes

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 9 guests