7/8 Rem Gun Club Sam 1 Steel load quest.....

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7/8 Rem Gun Club Sam 1 Steel load quest.....

Postby kenner » Sat Mar 23, 2013 1:27 pm

Hello! I have a 1oz and 15/16oz load for my Gun Club/Sam1 combo. Could I bump up the powder a grain from the 15/16oz load and just put in another felt, if needed?

Anyone have a reliable/tested load for this combo?

Additionally, Do the VP, or MM wads really pattern better than Sam1's, or is that just dependent on the gun and the load?
I just read that on a post, but haven't read enough supporting data.


Thanks!.... Ken
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Re: 7/8 Rem Gun Club Sam 1 Steel load quest.....

Postby Jon Bergren » Sun Mar 24, 2013 6:45 am

I know of no Gun Club SaM1 recipes only Lightning Steel and they are 7/8 and 1 oz recipes. Make sure any wildcat load in the Gun Club hull is checked.Jon.
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Re: 7/8 Rem Gun Club Sam 1 Steel load quest.....

Postby bassmaster624 » Wed Mar 27, 2013 5:02 pm

the gun club hull should be the same as a nitro and sts.if you can find data for either one of them your in good shape.
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Re: 7/8 Rem Gun Club Sam 1 Steel load quest.....

Postby Sagebrush » Wed Mar 27, 2013 6:39 pm

In all my lead and steel reloading I have found out that the Gun Club is close to the
win AA for load data but............
I tested 3/4 and 7/8oz steel loads from 1850fps to 1700fps and after pattern test and on birds in the field
I finally dropped both loads and went to the 1oz steel load for more pellets in the air and also size #5 steel or BIGGER
in my reloads to get down range energy that would drop birds with less cripples.

If 7/8oz works for you great and you might take a look at load #108 in the RSI manual and drop one full grain of powder
as a maximum load, if you can't find any data. I think Alliant has a 1oz load for its STS hull on line you can also look up
before you do any reloading.

Hard to blow up a gun with light 7/8oz loads ........... super velocity speeds and high payloads, is another story. Just
be safe and use the starting load data with that Rem hull, since it is not brass..............those tin hulls are ment to be tossed after use but we all try to get at least one more load out of every thing. I don't reload "Tin".

Good luck.
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Re: 7/8 Rem Gun Club Sam 1 Steel load quest.....

Postby TimeMachine » Wed Mar 27, 2013 8:24 pm

Sagebrush wrote:In all my lead and steel reloading I have found out that the Gun Club is close to the
win AA for load data but............
I tested 3/4 and 7/8oz steel loads from 1850fps to 1700fps and after pattern test and on birds in the field
I finally dropped both loads and went to the 1oz steel load for more pellets in the air and also size #5 steel or BIGGER
in my reloads to get down range energy that would drop birds with less cripples.

If 7/8oz works for you great and you might take a look at load #108 in the RSI manual and drop one full grain of powder
as a maximum load, if you can't find any data. I think Alliant has a 1oz load for its STS hull on line you can also look up
before you do any reloading.

Hard to blow up a gun with light 7/8oz loads ........... super velocity speeds and high payloads, is another story. Just
be safe and use the starting load data with that Rem hull, since it is not brass..............those tin hulls are ment to be tossed after use but we all try to get at least one more load out of every thing. I don't reload "Tin".

Good luck.


This right on the money right down to the #5 recommendation. Well said Sage!
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Re: 7/8 Rem Gun Club Sam 1 Steel load quest.....

Postby kenner » Wed Mar 27, 2013 10:51 pm

I thought that an ounce of #4's would make a lotta holes, out to 30yds??

Maybe I need to think more 'bout head shots in close and retain pattern density and not luck, on the going away birds?
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Re: 7/8 Rem Gun Club Sam 1 Steel load quest.....

Postby Jon Bergren » Thu Mar 28, 2013 7:48 am

7/8 oz of steel 5's at 1720 fps will penetrate to kill to 46.5 ys. This would be a great load over decoys. I use 4's in the 7/8 oz load running it as fast as 1800 fps plus. At 1720 fps 4's will penetrate to kill to 50.4 yds and I kill mallards to 45 yds with it. I also use steel 6's on teal and dove. Never tried 5's. Jon.
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Re: 7/8 Rem Gun Club Sam 1 Steel load quest.....

Postby Art Vandelay » Thu Mar 28, 2013 8:01 am

DELETED
Last edited by Art Vandelay on Sat Mar 30, 2013 7:05 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: 7/8 Rem Gun Club Sam 1 Steel load quest.....

Postby Jon Bergren » Thu Mar 28, 2013 8:15 am

At 1400 fps 4's will penetrate to kill to 43.5 ys and 5's 40.1 yds. Shooting these loads at 40 yds will cause alot of cripples. At this velocity 3's would be a better option in a 1 oz load with move velocity. Jon
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Re: 7/8 Rem Gun Club Sam 1 Steel load quest.....

Postby Sagebrush » Thu Mar 28, 2013 9:51 am

Many years ago I shot this pattern of 1oz regular #5 steel at a target at 50 yards with a extended mod. choke
which is equal to a full choke with steel pellets. This load is for 40 yards +/- shots to get best patterns and
energy with a I/C choke over decoys. I was testing 50 yard patterns this day and found this pattern interesting.
Your patterns may be better or worse but it will work if you do your part, with 179 pellets in a 30" circle.

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Re: 7/8 Rem Gun Club Sam 1 Steel load quest.....

Postby kenner » Thu Mar 28, 2013 8:30 pm

Impressive pattern! I'm imagining a whole lotta holes, 30 yds and in, even with an Imp Cyl choke....
So,, here's my real question.....

I'm wanting to kill birds, without a lot of meat damage. #2's @ 1700 are like cannonballs; birds are dead, but a lotta meat is wasted. I don't care what bird it is.... I can adjust the pellet count and choke....

*Will I see less meat damage, with more, smaller pellets,, than I will with fewer, larger pellets?

*Do more, smaller pellets go right through meat and bone, with less loss of meat/food, while still killing quickly?

*Do large pellets at slower velocities, reduce meat damage, compared to higher velocities??... Given that with steel, there's no deformation of pellet?
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Re: 7/8 Rem Gun Club Sam 1 Steel load quest.....

Postby Sagebrush » Fri Mar 29, 2013 10:20 am

On the average, MOST ducks will not be hit with the center of your pattern and with a little luck,
farther out than 20 yards !!

I only get a few "Swiss cheese" birds in a season and if they are bad I stop picking the feathers off and just breast
fillet the meat from the bird. I know of some that only breast their birds to save time and toss the rest.
I like birds on the BBQ, plain or marinated................ if real bad the dogs get a treat, I never waste a bird.
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Re: 7/8 Rem Gun Club Sam 1 Steel load quest.....

Postby kenner » Fri Mar 29, 2013 10:57 am

So, I want to know 'bout bone damage, because when I hit a wing with a #2 steel, going @ 1700 muzzle, it just splinters bones and turns some to dust... just shrapnel and lost meat..... Do smaller shot at high speed, also do this?
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Re: 7/8 Rem Gun Club Sam 1 Steel load quest.....

Postby Frank Lopez » Fri Mar 29, 2013 11:27 am

Kenner,

I shoot ducks from 25 to 40 yards with 1 1/4oz of #2 steel at 1400fps (Winchester Drylok, Remington NitroSteel. etc) with a factory modified choke in a Beretta A390. I have never had any of the problems you are describing. When I center the duck, it falls dead as you could ever want, so I'm convinced that you do not need all that speed. This load, by the way, will kill big ducks out to 60 yards. I know this for a fact. I don't usually pull the trigger on birds that far out, but if they've been hit and are flying off, it's time to unload on them.

Frank
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Re: 7/8 Rem Gun Club Sam 1 Steel load quest.....

Postby 3200 man » Fri Mar 29, 2013 11:39 am

My new load of 1 1/8 oz of 2's does just fine also , I've whacked big ducks outside of 50 ,dead in the air too . I also like
7/8 oz of 3's even though they are faster than the 2's at 1500 + , they also will kill big birds inside of 45 yds ,with very little
meat lost .

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Re: 7/8 Rem Gun Club Sam 1 Steel load quest.....

Postby Jon Bergren » Fri Mar 29, 2013 11:52 am

Frank Lopez wrote:Kenner,

I shoot ducks from 25 to 40 yards with 1 1/4oz of #2 steel at 1400fps (Winchester Drylok, Remington NitroSteel. etc) with a factory modified choke in a Beretta A390. I have never had any of the problems you are describing. When I center the duck, it falls dead as you could ever want, so I'm convinced that you do not need all that speed. This load, by the way, will kill big ducks out to 60 yards. I know this for a fact. I don't usually pull the trigger on birds that far out, but if they've been hit and are flying off, it's time to unload on them.

Frank


Your load will penetrate to kill to 50 yds, it won't penetrate to kill to 60 yds unless they are Texas yds.
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Re: 7/8 Rem Gun Club Sam 1 Steel load quest.....

Postby Frank Lopez » Fri Mar 29, 2013 12:16 pm

Jon Bergren wrote:
Frank Lopez wrote:Kenner,

I shoot ducks from 25 to 40 yards with 1 1/4oz of #2 steel at 1400fps (Winchester Drylok, Remington NitroSteel. etc) with a factory modified choke in a Beretta A390. I have never had any of the problems you are describing. When I center the duck, it falls dead as you could ever want, so I'm convinced that you do not need all that speed. This load, by the way, will kill big ducks out to 60 yards. I know this for a fact. I don't usually pull the trigger on birds that far out, but if they've been hit and are flying off, it's time to unload on them.

Frank


Your load will penetrate to kill to 50 yds, it won't penetrate to kill to 60 yds unless they are Texas yds.


Let's see. Roster says that load's good to 65 yards. Several other published ballistics tables indicate that the load is good out to 60 yards. My own imperical data indicates that it will work out to a measured 60 yards. And my field experience says that it will work. But now we have someone posting under an assumed name telling us that it will not work! Very credible. :lol: :lol: :lol:

Frank
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Re: 7/8 Rem Gun Club Sam 1 Steel load quest.....

Postby eastcoastsoxfan » Fri Mar 29, 2013 1:12 pm

Frank Lopez wrote:
Jon Bergren wrote:
Frank Lopez wrote:Kenner,

I shoot ducks from 25 to 40 yards with 1 1/4oz of #2 steel at 1400fps (Winchester Drylok, Remington NitroSteel. etc) with a factory modified choke in a Beretta A390. I have never had any of the problems you are describing. When I center the duck, it falls dead as you could ever want, so I'm convinced that you do not need all that speed. This load, by the way, will kill big ducks out to 60 yards. I know this for a fact. I don't usually pull the trigger on birds that far out, but if they've been hit and are flying off, it's time to unload on them.

Frank


Your load will penetrate to kill to 50 yds, it won't penetrate to kill to 60 yds unless they are Texas yds.


Let's see. Roster says that load's good to 65 yards. Several other published ballistics tables indicate that the load is good out to 60 yards. My own imperical data indicates that it will work out to a measured 60 yards. And my field experience says that it will work. But now we have someone posting under an assumed name telling us that it will not work! Very credible. :lol: :lol: :lol:

Frank


Frank,
Roster is on crack!
Theres no way an 1 1/4 of 2s is gonna have a killing pattern at 65 yards with the average gun choke combo most of us are shooting. The 10ga guys have to spend a lot of time at pattern board to get 65 yards, 12ga not very likely.
Golden pellets will probably fluke one that far but we all know you don't rely on flukes.
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Re: 7/8 Rem Gun Club Sam 1 Steel load quest.....

Postby Frank Lopez » Fri Mar 29, 2013 1:47 pm

Soxfan,

I agree with you regarding pattern density. At least I can't get the required density. However, with respect to penetration, there is no question. By the way, that quote from Roster regarding 65 yards is based on personal corrispondance, not his lethality tables. His exact quote was, "That load is good out to 65 yards, IF you can keep the pattern together!" That conversation, like this one, was discussing the penetration of #2 steel.

Frank
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Re: 7/8 Rem Gun Club Sam 1 Steel load quest.....

Postby Jon Bergren » Fri Mar 29, 2013 3:49 pm

Here is KPY data for 1 1/4 oz of steel 2's at 1400 fps
50.2 yds
600 fps
2.82 ft-lb
159.4 energy density
1.33" gel penetration

60 yd
524 fps
2.15 ft-lb
121.4 energy density
1.08" gel penetration

65 yds
400 fps
1.88 ft-lbs
108.5 energy density
0.97 gel penetration

This data prooves Frank is absollutely wrong and creating sky busters and woundin many waterfowl. Jon
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Re: 7/8 Rem Gun Club Sam 1 Steel load quest.....

Postby Frank Lopez » Fri Mar 29, 2013 5:41 pm

I'm not quite sure how, exactly, you're fudging the numbers, Ned, but just as an example, on Page 208 of John Taylor's "Shotshells & Ballistics" the data for a 1 1/4oz load of #2 steel (this particular one by Kent) with a three foot velocity of 1400fps, has the following velocities and energies:

50 yards:
V = 625fps
KE = 3.05ft-lbs

60 yards
V = 551fps
KE = 2.37fps

70 yards
V = 487fps
KE = 1.85ft-lbs.

That information is taken verbatum from the page listed. Actually, it's the last load listed on that page. It's there for anyone to see. The data is cross referenced several times in the book, and all references to #2 steel at 1400fps (three foot velocity) are identical. It also matches up well with a couple of ballistics programs. So please explain how it is possible that every reference has velocities at 50, 60 and 70 yards that are higher than yours are at 50, 60 and 65 yards?

Some things just never change.

Frank
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Re: 7/8 Rem Gun Club Sam 1 Steel load quest.....

Postby kenner » Fri Mar 29, 2013 6:37 pm

Okay Y'All,,,, I'm the O.P., kenner/Ken and to get back to it, here was my post:

Hello! I have a 1oz and 15/16oz load for my Gun Club/Sam1 combo.

Could I bump up the powder a grain from the 15/16oz load and just put in another felt, if needed?

Anyone have a reliable/tested load for this combo?

Additionally, Do the VP, or MM wads really pattern better than Sam1's, or is that just dependent on the gun and the load?
I just read that on a post, but haven't read enough supporting data.


Thanks!.... Ken
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Re: 7/8 Rem Gun Club Sam 1 Steel load quest.....

Postby Jon Bergren » Fri Mar 29, 2013 8:56 pm

Frank Lopez wrote:I'm not quite sure how, exactly, you're fudging the numbers, Ned, but just as an example, on Page 208 of John Taylor's "Shotshells & Ballistics" the data for a 1 1/4oz load of #2 steel (this particular one by Kent) with a three foot velocity of 1400fps, has the following velocities and energies:

50 yards:
V = 625fps
KE = 3.05ft-lbs

60 yards
V = 551fps
KE = 2.37fps

70 yards
V = 487fps
KE = 1.85ft-lbs.

That information is taken verbatum from the page listed. Actually, it's the last load listed on that page. It's there for anyone to see. The data is cross referenced several times in the book, and all references to #2 steel at 1400fps (three foot velocity) are identical. It also matches up well with a couple of ballistics programs. So please explain how it is possible that every reference has velocities at 50, 60 and 70 yards that are higher than yours are at 50, 60 and 65 yards?

Some things just never change.

Frank


The KPY data was created using the same formula for shotshell ballistics that Ed Lowery used only the KPY data is for the faster loads. The velocities up to about 1700 fps are the same with increased velocity in the KPY.
Who created John Taylor's ballistic data. You have to be a mathimatician before you can do it. Both the Lowery program and the creator of the KPY program are mathimatician. I have talked to both gents. Who did Taylor cross reference his data with?
When Steel became mandatory here in TX I got a Rangefinder so I could measure distances. When I hunted waterfowl then it wan't if you were going to get your limit, but how long it would take. Many years I helped kill 400-600 geese keeping distances birds killed and picking birds to see pellets. When I wasn't hunting geese I was also killing my limit of ducks. I picked everyone I shot. The data I gleaned from this matches the KPY data that I use. Due to the lack of water the waterfowling is slim to none now. A couple years ago I bought a new Rangefiner so I could range flying Sandhills. I tried three before I got one that would work on geese staying at the Park Pond here in Amarillo. I still get to hunt the Sandhills. Taking care of my wife who had both a heart attack and a stroke three years ago this Jun keeps me very busy. Jon who also hunted with a local guide who was a friend.
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Re: 7/8 Rem Gun Club Sam 1 Steel load quest.....

Postby flyndutchman » Fri Mar 29, 2013 10:17 pm

Jon (Ned), you have highjacked the thread again. Now is the time for Cannon to comment on which wads work best in which barrel. He made that post some time ago comparing most of the better wads. He has a lot of exerience with many wads in many barrels.

Lets get back to what Kenner is really asking. I wouldn't increase powder, just decrease the shot the 1/16 if an ounce. The RSI hand book talks about doing this in detail. Put it over the chronograph and on the pattern board and see how it looks. Stays within pressures and should give more velocity. I have personally found that the RSI wads don't pattern with 1's and 2's in my remington barrel and definitely not in my Benelli barrel. B&P and LBC are the only others I have tried and both work much better.
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Re: 7/8 Rem Gun Club Sam 1 Steel load quest.....

Postby kenner » Fri Mar 29, 2013 10:53 pm

Thank You!! So, dutchman,, which manual should I be looking at? Which wads give better patterns in your Rem barrel? What length is your bbl?.. and what choke, made by whom? Thanks!!

p.s.... anyone/cannon... what's the url for the post on wads???

pps.... Are 1oz Rem loads the same, or less in powder, to AA loads, given Sam1 and Win primer??

Many thanks, people!!

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