remington hypersonics 3inch 12 gauge loads

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remington hypersonics 3inch 12 gauge loads

Postby goosepit2007 » Wed Jul 31, 2013 10:21 am

well did little searching found an article that has some good info in it for those that are shooting them. the average psi for 3 inch 11/4 loads is stated as 13,850 pounds persquare inch(psi) average. wow is all i can say so that explains the nose bleeds,check slapping shoulder bounding that those that have shot them have experianced and posted on this chat sight and others.
they have higher fps than advertised per balistician that tested these loads. shows chart with 60 yards with 2's still has 621 fps,so people that go with 600 fps rule than if you can harness that speed the 2's could be 60 yard load.

But with that much speed/psi per that load there is draw back in it all besides shoulders,black eyes, price tag ect... i will go in detail further as post gets moving along.
link of article below:
which is very good article,about remingtons hypersonic loads.

http://www.wildfowlmag.com/tool_trade_w ... 42811.html
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Re: remington hypersonics 3inch 12 gauge loads

Postby BT Justice » Wed Jul 31, 2013 10:35 am

I can't believe Remington would load up ammunition that far over SAAMI specs for a 3" 12 ga gun, you could get near the same results loading your own if you added the extra amount of powder needed to run pressures that high.... :no:
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Re: remington hypersonics 3inch 12 gauge loads

Postby Frank Lopez » Wed Jul 31, 2013 10:59 am

The problem here is that the article was written by Brezny. He has a rather dubious record on accurately stating what actually happened. If you read closely, you'll notice that he states that he tested "a significant sample of Remington Hypersonic steel", but he never tells us exactly what that sample was. For example, if he tested loads across the spectrum of what Remington offers, then the test for pressure might well have been from a 3 1/2 inch load. The point is he never actually states that his pressure test was for a 3 inch load.

I would think that the editors and or Remington would have had some issues with the publication of this article. In any event, the chamber pressure listed in the article, if true, will not blow up your gun (SAAMI guns are proofed at over 19,000 psi). But you can bet your bottom dollar it will shorten the functional life of the firearm.

By the way, chamber pressure has absolutely noting to do with recoil.

Frank
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Re: remington hypersonics 3inch 12 gauge loads

Postby goosepit2007 » Wed Jul 31, 2013 12:19 pm

frank

i personally talked to him on phone and he stated that was for the 11/4 loads in 3 inch hull. simple as that i asked him twice in the conversation both times when i asked was that 13850 psi for 3 inch 11/4 hypersonic he said yes.
.
Last edited by goosepit2007 on Wed Jul 31, 2013 12:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: remington hypersonics 3inch 12 gauge loads

Postby Frank Lopez » Wed Jul 31, 2013 12:30 pm

If that's the case, and I don't doubt you, shouldn't you be questioning Remington as to why they are marketing products in excess of SAAMI standard pressures? Those pressures, by the way, are dangerously close to the CIP proofs used on many imported guns.

Consider this. if one gun blows up from an over pressure due to one of these loads, not really a big deal. There's a hundred ways that Remington could cover their tracks. Overpressures occasionally happen and is the reason SAAMI proof pressures are comparatively high. But, can you imagine the law suit that would ensue if a plaintiff went into court and offered Brezny's independent tests as evidence? Now granted, he's not the most reliable or accurate source where ballistics are concerned. However, he presumably does know how to read a meter and should have known what load he put in the chamber.

I'm quite sure there is some logical explanation for this. Otherwise there'd have been more to it than just some article.

Frank

Edit:

I just emailed Remington to investigate this. I'll post up any answer I receive.

Frank
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Re: remington hypersonics 3inch 12 gauge loads

Postby BT Justice » Wed Jul 31, 2013 1:57 pm

Frank...Please post up your reply if you get one from Remington, be interesting to see what they have to say.
Brezny stated that he had Ballistic Research, Tom Armbrust's company, do the pressure and velocity testing.
Remington can't get around an independent testing facilities results...I think... :lol3:
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Re: remington hypersonics 3inch 12 gauge loads

Postby Frank Lopez » Wed Jul 31, 2013 2:04 pm

Ok, here's the first response.
Response Via Email (Danny) 07/31/2013 03:26 PM
SAAMI pressures for shotgun shells are based on 28 inch test barrels. Longer barrels will produce slightly higher pressures and this could contribute to his findings. All of our loads are within SAAMI specified pressures and are based on SAAMI test procedures.


I just wrote back and mentioned that according to the SAAMI spec I have (Z299.2-192), the pressure transducer is located 1.000 inches from the breech face, so the pressure is actually measured while the load is still in the chamber. Furthermore, SAAMI specifications for barrel length for measuring the velocity for a 12ga 3 inch gun is 30 inches with a full choke.

It's getting interesting.

Frank
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Re: remington hypersonics 3inch 12 gauge loads

Postby solway gunner » Wed Jul 31, 2013 2:43 pm

the USA is the most litigeous society in the world.Not for one minute could i ever contemplate remington looking to self liquidate by manufaturing o/p shells knowingly from the drawing board to their ballisic dept and final pressure testing-it aint happening.
folk moan about wanting fast shells that have the potential to kill at difficult ranges and here they are,next thing theyre crying about recoil ,well get this,you cant have it both ways,if you want to push the numbers in a 12ga,put an extra shirt on.
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Re: remington hypersonics 3inch 12 gauge loads

Postby Jim Atlas » Wed Jul 31, 2013 3:17 pm

solway gunner wrote:the USA is the most litigeous society in the world.


We prefer "lawsuitin'est."
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Re: remington hypersonics 3inch 12 gauge loads

Postby goosepit2007 » Wed Jul 31, 2013 3:18 pm

BT Justice wrote:Frank...Please post up your reply if you get one from Remington, be interesting to see what they have to say.
Brezny stated that he had Ballistic Research, Tom Armbrust's company, do the pressure and velocity testing.
Remington can't get around an independent testing facilities results...I think... :lol3:


I noticed that they were tested by the above independant testing facility the first time i read it, and like you said it would be hard for them to get around there results. they would have just got them as we would have at random.

Bt justice,

i asked them for all the psi averages for there hypersonic loads?

There response was that they are within SAAMI specs....They answered right away yesterday i replied right back have not got response yet today.

i sent reply back that if they did the testing its would not be that hard to give them to a person. which they had to have done testing and got results. They answered right away yesterday i replied right back have not got response yet as of today.
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Re: remington hypersonics 3inch 12 gauge loads

Postby Assault » Wed Jul 31, 2013 4:22 pm

Well I can attest to the black eye theory! My daughter was shooting 3" #4 hyper sonics out of her youth moss 510. She knocked a woodie drake down at about 40yrds, but came home with a black eye! Over the summer, I've worked her up from low brass back up to 3" mags! She says she is ready for teal season!
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Re: remington hypersonics 3inch 12 gauge loads

Postby baltz526 » Wed Jul 31, 2013 6:15 pm

If someone is worried about the pressure. Just send your own 5 shells in to a testing lab. Then post the pressure test results. I have never shot one of the hypersonics, But I would if they where not so over priced.
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Re: remington hypersonics 3inch 12 gauge loads

Postby Frank Lopez » Wed Jul 31, 2013 6:56 pm

This gets crazier and crazier! I've had two more emails with Remington, neither of which made any sense whatsoever. I'll post them up when I have a complete answer, but let's just say at this point, Remington's technical answers are less than credible!

By the way, I'm not sure that Tom Armbrust did the pressure testing on those loads.

From the Article wrote:The chamber pressure was high, running an average of 13,850 pounds per square inch. That’s a hot chamber burner. I recorded the data using a Krieger 198 test barrel of 30 inches with a skeet choke.


Sounds a lot like Brezny "recorded" the data.

Frank
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Re: remington hypersonics 3inch 12 gauge loads

Postby baltz526 » Wed Jul 31, 2013 7:12 pm

I assume that means he used a transducer. Not a crusher gun.
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Re: remington hypersonics 3inch 12 gauge loads

Postby BT Justice » Wed Jul 31, 2013 10:02 pm

All I know is for these 1 1/4 oz 3" loads to get the speed that Remington is advertising and Brezny is claiming, they would have to be running the pressures the article was stating. To keep pressures near SAAMI specs and run those kinds of velocities would require amounts of very slow burning rifle type powders you couldn't fit in a 3" 12 ga hull.
Even with their so called Excellerator wad I don't think it could be done without running higher than SAAMI spec pressures.
In Hypersonic loads I have seen taken apart they are running a ball type powder, around 47 grains of it, which would require a very high Nitroglycerin content powder to get the kind of results they are getting with that small an amount of powder.
I don't think anyone is going get any straight answers on this, personally I wouldn't shoot them in anything but a 3 1/2" gun rated for the kinds of pressures that this article was stating......Joe
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Re: remington hypersonics 3inch 12 gauge loads

Postby Elvis Kiwi » Wed Jul 31, 2013 10:45 pm

there seems to be more "shotguns for parts" for sale around this year than Ive ever seen in the past. I wont pay the high price for those loads and the recoil is said to be unpleasant in a pump so I wouldnt go there if I could afford it.
Assult...man that is a tough break for the lass to take. I strongly suggest you get some softer loads for her to shoot BEFORE a flinch develops..if you are not a reloader see if you can find some 1 1/6th oz loads gamebore and winchester both put them out in 2 3/4" shells and they are a good honest duck load in #3s.
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Re: remington hypersonics 3inch 12 gauge loads

Postby Assault » Wed Jul 31, 2013 11:11 pm

Elvis Kiwi wrote:there seems to be more "shotguns for parts" for sale around this year than Ive ever seen in the past. I wont pay the high price for those loads and the recoil is said to be unpleasant in a pump so I wouldnt go there if I could afford it.
Assult...man that is a tough break for the lass to take. I strongly suggest you get some softer loads for her to shoot BEFORE a flinch develops..if you are not a reloader see if you can find some 1 1/6th oz loads gamebore and winchester both put them out in 2 3/4" shells and they are a good honest duck load in #3s.

Yea, I backed her down to Winchester low brass #7.5 to shoot skeet and worked her up to shooting Prairie Storm Steel shot #4 3" in her youth Moss 510. She is doing good. Been shooting a lot this summer! She is one of those girls that refuses to let a boy her age show her up!
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Re: remington hypersonics 3inch 12 gauge loads

Postby Assault » Wed Jul 31, 2013 11:13 pm

Elvis Kiwi wrote:there seems to be more "shotguns for parts" for sale around this year than Ive ever seen in the past. I wont pay the high price for those loads and the recoil is said to be unpleasant in a pump so I wouldnt go there if I could afford it.
Assult...man that is a tough break for the lass to take. I strongly suggest you get some softer loads for her to shoot BEFORE a flinch develops..if you are not a reloader see if you can find some 1 1/6th oz loads gamebore and winchester both put them out in 2 3/4" shells and they are a good honest duck load in #3s.

Where we hunt it's all flooded timber, with the prairie storm 3" #4 they pattern good with the stock MOD choke.
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Re: remington hypersonics 3inch 12 gauge loads

Postby Assault » Wed Jul 31, 2013 11:19 pm

But as for the 3.5" hyper sonics in my Versamax, they work well and don't kick near as bad as they do in my 870 SM. one thing I do like about them, they don't jam when ejecting! Black cloud 3.5 where bad about not ejecting due to casing being to long after being shot
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Re: remington hypersonics 3inch 12 gauge loads

Postby Elvis Kiwi » Wed Jul 31, 2013 11:57 pm

sounds like you have got it sussed, check out those loads if you happen to see some you may well be surprised at how good they are, I know I was.
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Re: remington hypersonics 3inch 12 gauge loads

Postby Assault » Thu Aug 01, 2013 8:23 am

Elvis Kiwi wrote:sounds like you have got it sussed, check out those loads if you happen to see some you may well be surprised at how good they are, I know I was.

Problem with her gun, I needed something with a flight control wad. That 20" barrel throws a horrible pattern with a standards wad
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Re: remington hypersonics 3inch 12 gauge loads

Postby goosepit2007 » Thu Aug 01, 2013 9:23 am

BT Justice wrote:All I know is for these 1 1/4 oz 3" loads to get the speed that Remington is advertising and Brezny is claiming, they would have to be running the pressures the article was stating. To keep pressures near SAAMI specs and run those kinds of velocities would require amounts of very slow burning rifle type powders you couldn't fit in a 3" 12 ga hull.
Even with their so called Excellerator wad I don't think it could be done without running higher than SAAMI spec pressures.
In Hypersonic loads I have seen taken apart they are running a ball type powder, around 47 grains of it, which would require a very high Nitroglycerin content powder to get the kind of results they are getting with that small an amount of powder.
I don't think anyone is going get any straight answers on this, personally I wouldn't shoot them in anything but a 3 1/2" gun rated for the kinds of pressures that this article was stating......Joe



Bt justice,

what you stated above is the main reasons I started this post. those loads 3 inch 11/4 loads should be shot in 31/2 inch chamber shotguns. I have had too many of the 1000 dollar plus guns get turned to pile of trash in one season with those loads along with the cheaper pumps and semi auto's ect. after seing the independant testing give 13850 psi average for 3 inch 11/4 load, that perty much say's it all. In 3 inch guns i have had the channels on side for carrier/bolt seperate/split from frame(basically need a whole new frame). the action cushion buttons on rear of action to soften the stopping point of ejection cycle, smashed to noting left(replaced) to broken clean off that is for semi auto's. return springs sprung(replaced), gas regulator parts broken, ect. pumps have been basically the slides channels same as semi autos. those are just some of major issues,that really was not there before these loads were on market. know when a person brings a gun to trade in there has to be a major looking over before any offers are given. know a guy has to wonder with the 12 gauge 31/2 inch 13/8oz loads if get those loads in hands of someone that shoots alot in one season with that load. would the pressure's be to high for 3 1/2 guns being that the 3 inch loads pressures are at for normal 31/2 inch loads in the 13000psi area,what mechanical issues are going to pop up with with them(31/2 inch chambers shortguns)? that is the million dollar question.
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Re: remington hypersonics 3inch 12 gauge loads

Postby Assault » Thu Aug 01, 2013 9:46 am

goosepit2007 wrote:
BT Justice wrote:All I know is for these 1 1/4 oz 3" loads to get the speed that Remington is advertising and Brezny is claiming, they would have to be running the pressures the article was stating. To keep pressures near SAAMI specs and run those kinds of velocities would require amounts of very slow burning rifle type powders you couldn't fit in a 3" 12 ga hull.
Even with their so called Excellerator wad I don't think it could be done without running higher than SAAMI spec pressures.
In Hypersonic loads I have seen taken apart they are running a ball type powder, around 47 grains of it, which would require a very high Nitroglycerin content powder to get the kind of results they are getting with that small an amount of powder.
I don't think anyone is going get any straight answers on this, personally I wouldn't shoot them in anything but a 3 1/2" gun rated for the kinds of pressures that this article was stating......Joe



Bt justice,

what you stated above is the main reasons I started this post. those loads 3 inch 11/4 loads should be shot in 31/2 inch chamber shotguns. I have had too many of the 1000 dollar plus guns get turned to pile of trash in one season with those loads along with the cheaper pumps and semi auto's ect. after seing the independant testing give 13850 psi average for 3 inch 11/4 load, that perty much say's it all. In 3 inch guns i have had the channels on side for carrier/bolt seperate/split from frame(basically need a whole new frame). the action cushion buttons on rear of action to soften the stopping point of ejection cycle, smashed to noting left(replaced) to broken clean off that is for semi auto's. return springs sprung(replaced), gas regulator parts broken, ect. pumps have been basically the slides channels same as semi autos. those are just some of major issues,that really was not there before these loads were on market. know when a person brings a gun to trade in there has to be a major looking over before any offers are given. know a guy has to wonder with the 12 gauge 31/2 inch 13/8oz loads if get those loads in hands of someone that shoots alot in one season with that load. would the pressure's be to high for 3 1/2 guns being that the 3 inch loads pressures are at for normal 31/2 inch loads in the 13000psi area,what mechanical issues are going to pop up with with them(31/2 inch chambers shortguns)? that is the million dollar question.

Everything ur stating is true! That's why I put my 870 SM in the cabinet and bought the Versa Max. My wrist would start hurting me on the pump action cause the loads had so much pressure that it would blow the bolt/action backwards. I haven't had it happen, but I know a few guys that have destroyed their barrels from shooting to hot of a load and causing the choke to swell and freeze up in the barrel. Not to many people pay attention to what gun they own and what ammo it can handle
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Re: remington hypersonics 3inch 12 gauge loads

Postby Frank Lopez » Thu Aug 01, 2013 11:12 am

Goosepit,

I agree with Assault, everything you stated is true. In fact, I've often predicted/warned of such things in the past couple of years. But, the damage you describe is not due to over pressure, it's actually due to excessive recoil. MAP occurs in the barrel. Actually, while the load is still pretty much in the shell.

Frank

By the way, I still haven't heard back from Remington on the last email I sent them.
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Re: remington hypersonics 3inch 12 gauge loads

Postby goosepit2007 » Thu Aug 01, 2013 3:03 pm

Frank Lopez wrote:Goosepit,

I agree with Assault, everything you stated is true. In fact, I've often predicted/warned of such things in the past couple of years. But, the damage you describe is not due to over pressure, it's actually due to excessive recoil. MAP occurs in the barrel. Actually, while the load is still pretty much in the shell.

Frank

By the way, I still haven't heard back from Remington on the last email I sent them.



frank,

Yes frank its the recoil that is breaking the shotguns, recoil goes right along with psi as it goes up the recoil/kick gets higher. or another way to put it is that the higher psi the faster the action cycles, the more recoil that is felt on shoulder. But i guess newbies to shooting world might not know that kind of thing.
i should have wrote it little different it is because the actions are being cycled back way to fast(the cushion stops on back of action smashed beyond usefullness or broke off completly),spring is same the high pressure loads produce higher recoil which in turn sprung the springs. , which boils down too recoil like you stated. the pumped with slide channels that broke away/spilt from recoil/high pressure load that generated the recoil. when hold the forend tight(pump shotgun) it transfers the bars up against the slide channel in which after while something as to give and the weakest part is slide channels in the receiver.

just hate to see people spend there money that they worked so hard to get for nice semigun / pump and see some expensive high pressure load That they say is whithin SAAMIspecs turn it into pile of junk, with putting more money into gun to get it back in the field.
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