Explain Heavy Metal to me please

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Re: Explain Heavy Metal to me please

Postby SPatrick » Thu Aug 15, 2013 6:07 am

Also if you shop at the right places you can find hevi metal for under 200$ a case including the rebate.
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Re: Explain Heavy Metal to me please

Postby B.E.Nelli » Thu Aug 15, 2013 7:48 am

I have also shot it for 3 or 4 seasons, and love it. It was by far the best patterning load in my Nova with an extended Carlson long range choke. I however just bought a SBE II 3 days ago, so I have some more patterning to do.
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Re: Explain Heavy Metal to me please

Postby zpstl321 » Thu Aug 15, 2013 8:22 am

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Re: Explain Heavy Metal to me please

Postby goosepit2007 » Thu Aug 15, 2013 8:30 am

Spatrick,

First off if i would get free cases i would shoot it and give a very good review that would be honest,true and to point. I have tested it on patern board ect after people that have hunted with us gave some of emi's loaded ammo as tip kind of deal. compairing those that i shot or cut open and then reloaded back into different loads in 23/4 ect I did not see an advantage really over the best steel reloads that i load or even some of the factory foder. but i never really shot any at ducks or geese just on pattern board but well big but i watched the people that were hunting with us using the emi products. some were perty good shots some were not. i seen first hand comparison between my steel loads and emi's products in field. that tells big part if load is so so load or one that is fantastic even if it shows good patterns on board, a guy still has to watch the reaction after shot and have very good comparison form steel to emi loads. The type of hunting that we do, my birds were falling just as hard with just as many featers floating in air as the more expensive loads of heavy shot loads ect.
I will take this further and go with topic here for 20 gauge load:

The young fellow that hunted with me last year that i was mentoring and took him on quite few hunts were we shot honkers/mallards/specks and than alot of snows in the spring.

I grabbed a 20 gauge patterned with fed premium 20 gauge 1oz of 1's, and kent 7/8 of 2 's and 3 shot. i ended up with light modified extended briley choke that shot best patterns out of rem 870 for yardage that he would be shooting at ducks/geese. long story short he shot alot of single honkers/ducks/snows that he was the only one shooting so i seen everything first hand. granted all the shots were 35 yards are closer,the majority of shots were around 20 to 25 yard range. it was hard choice between the 10z load of 1's and 7/8oz of 2's in kents. he nocked them down with one shot quite few times, being new to duck hunting i was impressed to say the least with little 20 gauge on the honkers over dekes. I shot a few snows at solid 40 yards in the spring just to see the performance at that range with kent 2's and that load snokered them perty hard at that range drt. The best thing about it is that guy can get them shipped to your door for 130 -140 dollars.

With heavy metal loads it seemed that the heavi metal shot was getting pushed to the outside of pattern perty quick, with the ones that i tested any ways. is the added cost really getting you further distance not really in what i saw in the field. that young lad had feathers a floating in the air with regular steel loads at way cheaper price. even with the little rebates that emi is giving for shells i would still go with steel factory shells. but if want to have heavier than lead notoxic shells for your boy i would get a shell that has nonduplex load with no steel shot in it. that is basically a watered down loads with big price tag.

I might add that i shoot alot of ducks and geese in 12 gauge with 800x load with 7/8 oz of steel shot. that is really the same speed ect of 20 gauge kents going 1550fps, so in way i had hunch that 20 gauge would shine with that load but it is big toss up between fed and kents bigger shot sizes of steel. the kents has less time of flight to bird which i feel gives it a bigger advantage.
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Re: Explain Heavy Metal to me please

Postby derbyacresbob » Thu Aug 15, 2013 8:32 am

SPatrick wrote:
TimeMachine wrote:I am very familiar with Hevi-Shot and it's mass porperties.

What is Heavy Metal??? and are they any good? Looking for a little more umpfff for my kids 20ga during goose season.

Thanks ahead.


Sorry you asked the wrong group of individuals about hevi metal, these guys would find a way to hate it if HEVI shot sent them free cases of ammo every year. Personally I love it, I am going on my 5th season shooting hevi metal, its been a great load for me. Quite a few of my buddies shoot 20 gauges at ducks, and shoot hevi metal exclusively, and love it. This would be a great load for your kid. Like Tornado said its a duplex load of hevi metal (10g/cc) pellets in front, and steel pellets in the back. Like others have said as well, this is a shell designed for pattern density, and if you are shooting 2's per say, you would expect to find smaller hevi metal pellets about the size of a 4 or a 5. Hope this helps, if you have any other questions please ask. Remember the best way to figure out if a shell works is in the field and on the patterning board, good luck this season. :beer:



The Hevi-Metal advertisement that is posted on the "Hevi-Shot Reloaders" thread says it is 50% steel and 50% Hevi-Shot in the Hevi-Metal shells. The advertisements on TV also said Hevi-Shot was in the Hevi-Metal shells.

So now it looks like there is no Hevi-Shot in Hevi-Metal shells just steel shot and Hevi-Metal shot.

Are Hevi-Metal shot and Hevi-Duck shot the same thing?
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Re: Explain Heavy Metal to me please

Postby TimeMachine » Thu Aug 15, 2013 8:34 am

SPatrick wrote:
TimeMachine wrote:I am very familiar with Hevi-Shot and it's mass porperties.

What is Heavy Metal??? and are they any good? Looking for a little more umpfff for my kids 20ga during goose season.

Thanks ahead.


Sorry you asked the wrong group of individuals about hevi metal, these guys would find a way to hate it if HEVI shot sent them free cases of ammo every year. Personally I love it, I am going on my 5th season shooting hevi metal, its been a great load for me. Quite a few of my buddies shoot 20 gauges at ducks, and shoot hevi metal exclusively, and love it. This would be a great load for your kid. Like Tornado said its a duplex load of hevi metal (10g/cc) pellets in front, and steel pellets in the back. Like others have said as well, this is a shell designed for pattern density, and if you are shooting 2's per say, you would expect to find smaller hevi metal pellets about the size of a 4 or a 5. Hope this helps, if you have any other questions please ask. Remember the best way to figure out if a shell works is in the field and on the patterning board, good luck this season. :beer:


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Re: Explain Heavy Metal to me please

Postby SPatrick » Thu Aug 15, 2013 9:53 am

Where to begin...

derbyacresbob wrote:So now it looks like there is no Hevi-Shot in Hevi-Metal shells just steel shot and Hevi-Metal shot.


That is how it has always been, people say hevi shot, but in reality they should be saying hevi metal pellets. If you look at most of my posts I try to say this, but even I forget and say hevi shot just because its easier, sorry for bad verbage at times, I am by no means perfect, just ask lost knife or Frank.

goosepit2007 wrote:Spatrick,


Well thats just like, your opinion man...(The Big Lebowski 1993). You wrote a thesis, I didnt have time to read it all, but basically you are saying you like cheap steel better than hevi metal because you saw someone shoot it, and they didnt drill birds into the ground. Wing shooting is all about confidence, I have shot about every factory load on the market, out of my guns, the shell that gives me the most confidence is hevi metal.
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Re: Explain Heavy Metal to me please

Postby SPatrick » Thu Aug 15, 2013 9:56 am

.
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Re: Explain Heavy Metal to me please

Postby zpstl321 » Thu Aug 15, 2013 10:30 am

Thanks.
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Re: Explain Heavy Metal to me please

Postby TexasGeese » Thu Aug 15, 2013 11:40 am

SPatrick wrote:I may come off as a d!ck in my last post, and its not meant for the crowd as a whole, but for the folks who would like to nitpick every single word that I type, to you, yes I am being a d!ck.


Please, just stop posting nonsense already, or better yet, stop posting altogether. Every post of yours is BS propaganda for EMI. Everyone around here is getting tired of it. You slam everyone that has had negative experiences with EMI products, and then try and act like the voice of reason while on EMI's payroll? Are you kidding me? Personally, I stopped reading most of your posts when you went on a rant about how good of a hunter you are. The comedic value in itself was golden, however. You're in way over your head on this forum and just digging a bigger hole by the day.
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Re: Explain Heavy Metal to me please

Postby SPatrick » Thu Aug 15, 2013 12:02 pm

TexasGeese wrote:
SPatrick wrote:I may come off as a d!ck in my last post, and its not meant for the crowd as a whole, but for the folks who would like to nitpick every single word that I type, to you, yes I am being a d!ck.


Please, just stop posting nonsense already, or better yet, stop posting altogether. Every post of yours is BS propaganda for EMI. Everyone around here is getting tired of it. You slam everyone that has had negative experiences with EMI products, and then try and act like the voice of reason while on EMI's payroll? Are you kidding me? Personally, I stopped reading most of your posts when you went on a rant about how good of a hunter you are. The comedic value in itself was golden, however. You're in way over your head on this forum and just digging a bigger hole by the day.


Actually no, not all my posts are BS propaganda. Go back through them if you really like. The only people I slam are the constant nay-sayers, some of which have never even fired a hevi metal shell. Don't really care if you stopped reading but I was making a point, not trying to sound like stuck up *** there. I have said it a million times, I have 0 reloading knowledge, dont really care to have any, but if a guy wants information about shooting hevi metal, and gets told he is an idiot on here by the know it alls, does not make you all look very good either. Not everyone wants to reload, and this forum is not just for reloaders.
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Re: Explain Heavy Metal to me please

Postby goosepit2007 » Thu Aug 15, 2013 12:58 pm

SPatrick wrote:Where to begin...

derbyacresbob wrote:So now it looks like there is no Hevi-Shot in Hevi-Metal shells just steel shot and Hevi-Metal shot.


That is how it has always been, people say hevi shot, but in reality they should be saying hevi metal pellets. If you look at most of my posts I try to say this, but even I forget and say hevi shot just because its easier, sorry for bad verbage at times, I am by no means perfect, just ask lost knife or Frank.

goosepit2007 wrote:Spatrick,


Well thats just like, your opinion man...(The Big Lebowski 1993). You wrote a thesis, I didnt have time to read it all, but basically you are saying you like cheap steel better than hevi metal because you saw someone shoot it, and they didnt drill birds into the ground. Wing shooting is all about confidence, I have shot about every factory load on the market, out of my guns, the shell that gives me the most confidence is hevi metal.



patrick,

I personally shot all heavy shot loads from emi that were factory loads at pattern boards to see if it was hype or real deal. the emi loads that were given to me, i shot some as they were loaded from factory, others as reloads after i cut shell apart and seperated steel and emi shot then loaded straight heavy shot they really did not pattern any better or have more dense patterns as my reloads of steel shot either way!!!!! you said that you have shot just about every factory steel shot load ,there lies the key words factory loads.
Reloads can be changed wee bit to be better and the big kicker for reloads is that you can load loads that are not aviable from factory ammo

what i am saying that The people that were shooting those loads from emi at ducks/geese were top notch trap shooters that were paid clients of ours for many years. so i new how well they could shoot. The main point of me saying that was that you could not see any difference on duck/goose getting hit from centered heavy metal load compared to duck/goose getting hit with centered pattern of steel reloads. same effect on birds no big advantage from emi's products to reloads that i was shooting for that perticular day.
If you would have read my post little better you would have read that when i patterned them on paper, i noticed with heavy-metal loads that the smaller heavy shot went to the outside of pattern perty quick. the other observation was that the patterns were not any better than steel patterns from my reloads and some factory ammo. and i tried alot of different chokes/gun combinations.

Plus that young fella that was his first year of shooting a shotgun. I watched him go from shooting cans hanging in trees and mounting and shooting which one i wanted him to with bb gun,to trap shooting than to the field, using 20 gauge factory steel ,and he did it just like he has been doing it for years, like a pro. The whole point was that he could not have killed them any more dead with heavy products from emi than he did with fed or the kent loads that i garbbed of shelf for him to shoot.

There is alot more to shooting than confidence, its all about form and follow through with swing of sight picture and trigger pulled at right time.
confidance comes to you in time after you start seing results in the way that you are shooting.
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Re: Explain Heavy Metal to me please

Postby lostknife4 » Thu Aug 15, 2013 1:19 pm

You guys should really read the rants on page 4 of: viewtopic.php?f=14&t=247418&start=75
AND, leave St Patrick alone, he isn't responsible for any of this stuff. Actually he is a stand up guy and a responsible hunter.
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Re: Explain Heavy Metal to me please

Postby dsm16428 » Thu Aug 15, 2013 1:59 pm

For serious lost. You guys sound like a bunch of girls that got stood up at prom. Shaun is one of the GOOD GUYS. Why not direct your rants directly to the company...and to the nitwits that make all us staffers roll their eyes?...wingseeker, snow, rebelcj7 and a few others that have never-not once came on this forum and other and tried to do his job, not just post up the drivel like those rubes do! You pots are seriously calling the kettle black guys. And before you try me, I don't have a dog in this fight at all except to call you guys on hammering a dude for doing his job. How would you like it if I came to your work and criticized every little thing you did? I'm one of the first and most vocal guys that will call EMI out when they pull their crap too, but that's just it...I call out the COMPANY-and that idiot wingseeker of course. :wink: Lighten up Francis. Geez.
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Re: Explain Heavy Metal to me please

Postby Frank Lopez » Thu Aug 15, 2013 6:55 pm

SPatrick wrote:Where to begin...

derbyacresbob wrote:So now it looks like there is no Hevi-Shot in Hevi-Metal shells just steel shot and Hevi-Metal shot.


That is how it has always been, people say hevi shot, but in reality they should be saying hevi metal pellets. If you look at most of my posts I try to say this, but even I forget and say hevi shot just because its easier, sorry for bad verbage at times, I am by no means perfect, just ask lost knife or Frank.


This is comical! You might want to tell EMI that! Their ads show a cutaway of the shell and list the bottom pellets as "Steel Shot" and the top pellets as "Hevi Shot"! AND, that's exactly what it says on the box I have! As I've said, I've tested this stuff, and the Hevi-whatever pellets tested out to 10.5gm/cc. Granted, EMI never said that pellets were Hevi-13, but that IS the implication and the intent.


SPatrick wrote:Well thats just like, your opinion man...(The Big Lebowski 1993). You wrote a thesis, I didnt have time to read it all, but basically you are saying you like cheap steel better than hevi metal because you saw someone shoot it, and they didnt drill birds into the ground. Wing shooting is all about confidence, I have shot about every factory load on the market, out of my guns, the shell that gives me the most confidence is hevi metal.


Confidence comes at a price. You could test the stuff legitimately. I checked the stuff against several other loads and wasn't impressed. The one thing I didn't check was shot string, and I'd really be interested in that, particularly if it showed where in the string the "heavier than steel" shot wound up. I will say that it did put more pellets in the pattern (all else being equal) with similar weight loads, but since the ballistic qualities of the load were essentially the same as the steel pellet they were replacing, the same effect could be achieved by going to a heavier all steel payload (1 3/8oz). The really interesting thing was that at 40 yards and beyond the "heavier than steel" pellets had migrated to the outer edges of the pattern and were hardly of any real use. And that's interesting because that's exactly where they'd do the most good. Perhaps if EMI loaded the "Hevi-whatever" first with the steel on top, things might be different?

This stuff has been picked apart by several of the more conscientious members of this forum and all agree that what's really bad about this load is the hype. Inside of 40 yards, you can hammer ducks with a load of welding slag if you put enough choke on it. And that's exactly what we have with Hevi-Metal, a 40 yard load. That, in and of itself, is not necessarily a bad thing. But, when the end result is the same with a box of Winchester Xpert 1 1/4oz #2s at half the price, one has to ask why pay more? Especially considering EMI's track record in advertising.

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Re: Explain Heavy Metal to me please

Postby TexasGeese » Thu Aug 15, 2013 7:10 pm

Frank Lopez wrote:This stuff has been picked apart by several of the more conscientious members of this forum and all agree that what's really bad about this load is the hype. Inside of 40 yards, you can hammer ducks with a load of welding slag if you put enough choke on it. And that's exactly what we have with Hevi-Metal, a 40 yard load. That, in and of itself, is not necessarily a bad thing. But, when the end result is the same with a box of Winchester Xpert 1 1/4oz #2s at half the price, one has to ask why pay more? Especially considering EMI's track record in advertising.

Frank



Spot on and well said. :thumbsup: Arguing about what load to shoot decoying ducks inside 40 yards is a moot point. You want to talk ballistics and patterns, lets talk about 60+ yard goose loads.
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Re: Explain Heavy Metal to me please

Postby goosepit2007 » Thu Aug 15, 2013 7:36 pm

frank i see that you got the same results when you patterned the heavy-metal loads, the shot that you need are not there in center of pattern well the majority of them i started to notice that at 35 yards.

also go along with the fact that inside 40 yards steel will do the same effect, thats whta i was trying to get across with the regular steel loads in 12 gauge and the lads shooting the 20 gauge factory loads.


well said frank.
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Re: Explain Heavy Metal to me please

Postby lostknife4 » Fri Aug 16, 2013 7:16 am

z51 wrote:
nmbrinkman wrote:
z51 wrote:I kill an average of 1 duck per 2 shots including cripple shots and have for years. To come out I would have to kill 2 ducks per every. shot with no cripples to break even! :lol3: I don't think that's gonna happen.


I wouldn't look at it that way. You're putting a price on a ducks head. The way I see it is if it gives you 3 or 4 ducks that you wouldn't otherwise get then that's what matters. Wether they are better or not, I don't know. I hunt a place where Canvasback are a real possibility. I'd pay a bit more for shells IF they truly were better if it meant a better shot at bagging a mount worthy bird. I've spent way too much on decoys, calls, waders, jackets, guns and gas to fret over an $100 price difference in a season's worth of shells. That's just me.


I'm not paying 4 times as much to load my own shells for a marginal difference, Damn right I'm putting a price on a ducks head. It's about killing ducks not a trophy hunt. I go to Africa for those.


Diff'rent stroke for diff'rent folks here for sure! If you are so concerned about the cost perhaps you should stop "hunting" and go to a Farmer's Market for your fowl, IMHO.
I would suggest Sir that you really don't comprehend nor want to know what is meant by the statement in my page footer.
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Re: Explain Heavy Metal to me please

Postby z51 » Fri Aug 16, 2013 8:48 am

lostknife4 wrote:
z51 wrote:
nmbrinkman wrote:
z51 wrote:I kill an average of 1 duck per 2 shots including cripple shots and have for years. To come out I would have to kill 2 ducks per every. shot with no cripples to break even! :lol3: I don't think that's gonna happen.


I wouldn't look at it that way. You're putting a price on a ducks head. The way I see it is if it gives you 3 or 4 ducks that you wouldn't otherwise get then that's what matters. Wether they are better or not, I don't know. I hunt a place where Canvasback are a real possibility. I'd pay a bit more for shells IF they truly were better if it meant a better shot at bagging a mount worthy bird. I've spent way too much on decoys, calls, waders, jackets, guns and gas to fret over an $100 price difference in a season's worth of shells. That's just me.


I'm not paying 4 times as much to load my own shells for a marginal difference, Damn right I'm putting a price on a ducks head. It's about killing ducks not a trophy hunt. I go to Africa for those.


Diff'rent stroke for diff'rent folks here for sure! If you are so concerned about the cost perhaps you should stop "hunting" and go to a Farmer's Market for your fowl, IMHO.

WOW!

That's an incredibly revealing statement. You have reached the bottom of the barrel when you try to shame a grown man into using your overpriced product and lecture me like an old maid aunt. I am fortunate enough to be able to buy whatever I want. Part of the reason I can do that is by avoiding stupid decisions. In my case using TSS would be a very poor decision and WAY more trouble than it could possibly be worth.
You are certainly free to shill whatever product you want, but don't pee down back and tell me it's raining.

BTW, I don't agree with your Dad, duck hunting is about killing ducks. My Dad used to say the same thing, but he wasn't much of a hunter.
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Re: Explain Heavy Metal to me please

Postby lostknife4 » Fri Aug 16, 2013 7:07 pm

Another one of my Dad's went like this: "Convince a man against his will ~~ he's of the same opinion still!!"

It's as true today as it was when he first told me, many years ago. My Dad was an excellent shot, a good hunter, fly fisherman, and Master Craftsman, he appreciated what nature gave us much more than a lot of today's "sportsmen". He was my hero!

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Re: Explain Heavy Metal to me please

Postby z51 » Fri Aug 16, 2013 7:56 pm

Everyone needs a hero.
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Re: Explain Heavy Metal to me please

Postby BT Justice » Sat Aug 17, 2013 5:30 am

The reality of it is what EMI is pushing as heavy metal many of us being reloaders have tried years before Hevi Metal came on the market. Basically they are duplex loads of Hevi and steel which we tried 10 years ago, and many of us weren't to impressed.
When we did testing with these duplex loads, we tried different ratios of steel and Hevi from 20% Hevi all the way up to 50% Hevi.
What we found was the Hevishot would eventually out run the steel and you would be left with half (or less) of the original pellet count you started with at longer ranges. Out to 40 yards the loads were fairly effective, once you got beyond that point it was a crap shoot on what you were shooting or if you would down anything. We also decided by our shot to kill ratio with either regular steel loads or regular Hevi loads both of them outperformed the duplex loads in the given arena we used them in.
That was what we found out way before they came out with this product as many others did also, not that many of us are knocking it but it's old news to us.
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Re: Explain Heavy Metal to me please

Postby rainingmallards » Sat Aug 17, 2013 9:11 am

I have never reloaded a shell before. So, I obviously buy factory made shells solely. I used the
Hevimetal shotgun shells this past season. I was pleased with them and really could find no fault
with their performance. I know there are cheaper shells on the market today but I felt the hevimetal
shells reasonable and did the job.
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Re: Explain Heavy Metal to me please

Postby J J Mac » Tue Aug 20, 2013 7:43 pm

BT Justice wrote:The reality of it is what EMI is pushing as heavy metal many of us being reloaders have tried years before Hevi Metal came on the market. Basically they are duplex loads of Hevi and steel which we tried 10 years ago, and many of us weren't to impressed.
When we did testing with these duplex loads, we tried different ratios of steel and Hevi from 20% Hevi all the way up to 50% Hevi.
What we found was the Hevishot would eventually out run the steel and you would be left with half (or less) of the original pellet count you started with at longer ranges. Out to 40 yards the loads were fairly effective, once you got beyond that point it was a crap shoot on what you were shooting or if you would down anything. We also decided by our shot to kill ratio with either regular steel loads or regular Hevi loads both of them outperformed the duplex loads in the given arena we used them in.
That was what we found out way before they came out with this product as many others did also, not that many of us are knocking it but it's old news to us.

At one time it was verified by some people on this site that Hevi Metal was a duplex of smaller Hevi Shot + larger steel shot with the HS density (~ 10 g/cc as I recall) and size chosen such that both had approximately the same downrange ballistics. I think the HS was 2-3 sizes smaller than the steel shot. The company web site said the same thing w/o being very specific. This was mentioned in an earlier posting on this thread also.
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Re: Explain Heavy Metal to me please

Postby Bug Doc » Wed Aug 21, 2013 12:31 pm

I may be a little late to this discussion, but here's my 2 cents. Hevi-Metal (and the similar Speed-Ball) loads are designed to increase your pellet count by including smaller, somewhat more dense tungsten shot that matches the steel shot's ballistics. It should have about the same time-of-flight and penetration as the steel shot included in the load. Because of this, the tungsten shot does not increase your potential range, but rather should allow you theoretically to use a more open choke and have wider patterns within the range of the steel shot. Here is a series of patterns I fired last year:

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These were fired with an Xtra-Full choke at 30, 40, & 50 yards. In the 40 yard pattern I took the time to show the tungsten pellets in red and the steel pellets in black. Note the tungsten shot has migrated to the fringe of the pattern (which you would expect given their position at the front of the shot column). Also note the pattern has dropped well below 100 hits at 50 yards. The 80% critical hit probability is lower than I would accept for a hunting load.

I haven't shot this ammo at live birds, but can't imagine it would perform any different than standard steel loads. I wasn't overly impressed with the patterns, however, and have not pursued it further.
Bug Doc
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