Explain Heavy Metal to me please

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Re: Explain Heavy Metal to me please

Postby BT Justice » Thu Aug 22, 2013 12:59 am

Bug Doc wrote:I may be a little late to this discussion, but here's my 2 cents. Hevi-Metal (and the similar Speed-Ball) loads are designed to increase your pellet count by including smaller, somewhat more dense tungsten shot that matches the steel shot's ballistics. It should have about the same time-of-flight and penetration as the steel shot included in the load. Because of this, the tungsten shot does not increase your potential range, but rather should allow you theoretically to use a more open choke and have wider patterns within the range of the steel shot. Here is a series of patterns I fired last year:


These were fired with an Xtra-Full choke at 30, 40, & 50 yards. In the 40 yard pattern I took the time to show the tungsten pellets in red and the steel pellets in black. Note the tungsten shot has migrated to the fringe of the pattern (which you would expect given their position at the front of the shot column). Also note the pattern has dropped well below 100 hits at 50 yards. The 80% critical hit probability is lower than I would accept for a hunting load.

I haven't shot this ammo at live birds, but can't imagine it would perform any different than standard steel loads. I wasn't overly impressed with the patterns, however, and have not pursued it further.

What method were you using for determining which pellet's were steel vs Hevi. We used mostly #2 Steel and #4 Hevi trying to get the most balanced load pellet weight wise. It was just a bit difficult trying to figure out which pellet hits were either type of shot on paper, but we had very reduced results same as you did at the 50 yard mark..we just figured it was the Hevi outrunning the steel at range.
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Re: Explain Heavy Metal to me please

Postby Bug Doc » Thu Aug 22, 2013 7:38 am

BT Justice wrote:
What method were you using for determining which pellet's were steel vs Hevi. We used mostly #2 Steel and #4 Hevi trying to get the most balanced load pellet weight wise. It was just a bit difficult trying to figure out which pellet hits were either type of shot on paper, but we had very reduced results same as you did at the 50 yard mark..we just figured it was the Hevi outrunning the steel at range.


The tungsten shot in Hevi-Metal runs about 3 sizes smaller (roughly 5's coupled with steel 2's), so it was pretty easy to differentiate between them. The plastic picnic table covers I shoot end up with fairly crisp holes. I'm sure there may have been a couple of larger tungsten pellets that got counted as steel, but the errors should be very minimal.

I don't have KPY here at home (Toasty, are you EVER going to release a version on Macintosh? :sad: ), but I'm guessing you'd need to use about #7 Hevi-Shot (12g/cc) to equal #2 steel. However, Hevi outrunning steel wouldn't be the cause of your problem with long range pattern percentage, as a pattern sheet doesn't care how long the shot string is. :wink:

I'm not entirely sure the reason for the large drop-off at 50 yards. I fired a second pattern, and it was about the same as the first (82 hits IIRC). My suspicion, however, is that the tungsten shot actually operates as spreader shot. Here's a series of patterns using Remington Nitro-Steel #2 1-1/4oz 1450fps loads, fired through the same gun/choke combination:

Image

Image

Image

If the tungsten shot is acting as spreader shot, it may be dropping out of the pattern almost entirely by 50 yards, explaining the weakness at long range compared to a pattern fired with 100% steel shot. I'd have to shoot another series with the HM and differentiate between the shot types at all ranges to be sure. Might be a fun project for this weekend...
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Re: Explain Heavy Metal to me please

Postby SPatrick » Thu Aug 22, 2013 7:42 am

I am by no means a ballistics expert, but wouldnt it be the other way around, the steel would be dropping out, or are you saying that the hevi metal pellets have spread out so much they are not impacting the board at all?
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Re: Explain Heavy Metal to me please

Postby Bug Doc » Thu Aug 22, 2013 7:52 am

SPatrick wrote:I am by no means a ballistics expert, but wouldnt it be the other way around, the steel would be dropping out, or are you saying that the hevi metal pellets have spread out so much they are not impacting the board at all?



If you look at the 40 yard pattern on the previous page, you'll see the tungsten pellets have already migrated to the fringe of the pattern, leaving just steel pellets in the core. I'm guessing by 50 yards that they have indeed migrated either off the board or at least outside the 30" center of the pattern. This is to be expected somewhat, since the tungsten pellets start at the front of the shot column, and thus are not sheltered from aerodynamic forces like the trailing steel pellets. On the other hand, a similar load of steel shot only didn't show quite as much spread, so I don't believe that is the entire story.

Using ballistic software, the tungsten pellets and steel pellets should behave similarly in flight, but it's possible that the deformation of the tungsten pellets is enough to cause them to spread faster than the perfectly round steel. That's what I found recently when I tested a handload of soft lead pellets compared to a duplicate load of steel pellets. The soft lead spread much faster than the steel, even though I tried to use ballistically similar pellets (#6 lead & #4 steel) fired from the same gun/choke.
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Re: Explain Heavy Metal to me please

Postby lostknife4 » Thu Aug 22, 2013 8:27 am

Here it is and of course I took the opportunity to add TSS just for comparison!!!!
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Re: Explain Heavy Metal to me please

Postby lostknife4 » Thu Aug 22, 2013 8:28 am

BT Justice wrote:
Bug Doc wrote: It was just a bit difficult trying to figure out which pellet hits were either type of shot on paper, but we had very reduced results same as you did at the 50 yard mark..we just figured it was the Hevi outrunning the steel at range.


The round holes are steel pellets....................
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Re: Explain Heavy Metal to me please

Postby Frank Lopez » Thu Aug 22, 2013 8:39 am

lostknife4 wrote:Here it is and of course I took the opportunity to add TSS just for comparison!!!!
Lost
Image


Lost,

The "heavy stuff" in Hevi-Metal is NOT 13gm/cc. I don't recall the exact number, but I calculated it to 10 something. Less than lead.

Frank
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Re: Explain Heavy Metal to me please

Postby lostknife4 » Thu Aug 22, 2013 9:18 am

Bug Doc said it was 12 but the closest on KPY is 12 but you are probably right, it doesn't seem to matter what EMI says it is it isn't!!!!!!!!! LOL
I'll run the 10
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Re: Explain Heavy Metal to me please

Postby SPatrick » Thu Aug 22, 2013 9:21 am

I will have to check them out tonight, blocked at work for some reason. I guess I just figured that the steel would be the first out due it being less dense. And yes it is 10, not 12.
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Re: Explain Heavy Metal to me please

Postby lostknife4 » Thu Aug 22, 2013 9:27 am

Image
This is the closest to 10g/cc on the list
Last edited by lostknife4 on Thu Aug 22, 2013 9:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Explain Heavy Metal to me please

Postby Bug Doc » Thu Aug 22, 2013 9:30 am

OK, I'm at work where I have KPY (on my crappy PC :rolleyes: ). It appears traditional Hevi-Shot 7's (at 12g/cc) is almost a perfect match for steel 2's (FWIW, they are also a perfect match for lead 6's). IIRC the tungsten shot in the Hevi-Metal shells I tested were #5 shot at 10g/cc, which is also a very good match for steel 2's.
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Re: Explain Heavy Metal to me please

Postby zpstl321 » Thu Aug 22, 2013 10:29 am

SPatrick wrote:I am by no means a ballistics expert, but wouldnt it be the other way around, the steel would be dropping out, or are you saying that the hevi metal pellets have spread out so much they are not impacting the board at all?


The issue as I understand it to be (and shows on various posted patterns) was the hevi being 9.8 g/cc and smaller than the steel were slowing down faster than expected. This allowed the larger steel shot to push through the center of the hevi causing it to move out to the fringe of the pattern. On one test I seen there was not hevi shot at all on a phone book sized target, just steel. The hevi formed a donut on the outer edges.
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Re: Explain Heavy Metal to me please

Postby zpstl321 » Thu Aug 22, 2013 10:38 am

Frank Lopez wrote:
lostknife4 wrote:Here it is and of course I took the opportunity to add TSS just for comparison!!!!
Lost
Image


Lost,

The "heavy stuff" in Hevi-Metal is NOT 13gm/cc. I don't recall the exact number, but I calculated it to 10 something. Less than lead.

Frank



Correct. They had it posted down deep on their website for awhile, but it isn't there now. They were 9.8 g/cc and being smaller weighed less than the steel pellets. If you read the marketing hype it sounded like they were heaver than the steel, but the small print did tell you otherwise under the FAQ section. I have to wonder if they designed it with hevi 13 in mind and later substituted for the lighter tungsten and didn't go back and retest. Either that or they never looked at high speed photos that showed the steel pushing through the center of the hevi.

I think if they used hevi 13 they might be able to maintain the pattern, don't know. I do know they folks that handload and put the hevi in wad first are getting great patterns. The idea has potential, it's just something in the design numbers didn't account for real world physics...They surely over looked something.

I will say that I've seen some crazy patterns posted up that were shot at 20 to 25 yards. I'm guessing they are responsible for the fans. They are crazy dense and I don't think anything would survive them. When you hit 30 to 35 yards things start falling a part though.
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Re: Explain Heavy Metal to me please

Postby Bug Doc » Thu Aug 22, 2013 11:11 am

Just to reiterate, EMI is using pellets in their Hevi-Metal loads that match each other ballistically. Steel #2 shot and 10g/cc #5 tungsten shot have virtually the same time of flight and penetration values at all ranges (for instance, at 40 yds the TOF is 0.125 sec for both and penetration is 1.69" and 1.75", respectively). The steel shot does not "push through" the tungsten shot - if it did the entire pattern would be disrupted rather than just the tungsten shot.
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Re: Explain Heavy Metal to me please

Postby zpstl321 » Thu Aug 22, 2013 1:06 pm

Hopefully they are now. Most of the reviews were done back when they substituted the 10 g/cc in place of the hevi 13 inthe duck shells. The hevi metal I seen had 3 to 4 different sizes of hevi shot, some of it way, way smaller than #5. In one review they weighed the pellets and found the hevi pellets weighed a full 2 grains less than the steel pellets in that load.
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Re: Explain Heavy Metal to me please

Postby zpstl321 » Thu Aug 22, 2013 1:19 pm

Copied from another review site:

"The heavy shot in the top is supposedly the same weight and has the same ballistics as the steel shot behind it. This is hard to believe because there is absolutely no uniformity to the heavy shot, they are oddly shaped, and just look like they want to fly off in different directions."

and another...

"I weighed the tungsten No. 2 pellets, I got a figure of 5.6 grains, and the BBB steel come in at 7.4 grains. "

and a third site.

"5. Hevi-Metal, By far the worst patterns of all shells tested no consistancy to the patterns with any choke tested"
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Re: Explain Heavy Metal to me please

Postby zpstl321 » Thu Aug 22, 2013 1:24 pm

There really are thousands upon thousands of reviews that say the same thing in slightly different wording. Some post up pictures so you can see the difference between advertising and real world product. There are also pictures of patterns that all show the same effect, and videos posted of test.
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Re: Explain Heavy Metal to me please

Postby Bug Doc » Thu Aug 22, 2013 2:05 pm

Just a quick physics lesson. The pellets do not need to 'weigh' the same (more correctly, have more mass) in order to have the same ballistics. A steel #2 pellet has more mass than a #5 10g/cc density pellet, and thus will have more kinetic energy at the same velocity. However, since the larger #2 pellet has more surface area, it suffers from more drag (whether through the air or the organs of a duck). The larger pellet needs its extra energy to overcome its extra drag. EMI chose pellet sizes and densities that balanced the energy to drag ratio so they would decelerate at the same rate in the air and offer similar amounts of penetration upon impact.

Just like every other load of tungsten shot I've seen from EMI, the size of the shot in HM is not very consistent (my samples appeared to range from about #4 to #6). That likely will cause some lengthening of the shot string. How much is anyone's guess. :huh:

As I mentioned previously, it also appears the shape of the pellets may come into play. Since the tungsten pellets are not perfectly spherical, I'm guessing they probably suffer from asymmetric drag, causing them to veer from the original flight path to a greater extent than the rounder steel shot. That would explain why they migrate out of the pattern so quickly.
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Re: Explain Heavy Metal to me please

Postby lostknife4 » Thu Aug 22, 2013 4:39 pm

What I can't figure is why anyone except maybe St Patrick and his merry bunch of prostaffers buying and shooting this welding slag! If ya get it for free well maybe but anyone in their right mind is delusional thinking they are getting their money's worth if they are ill informed enough to buy it...
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Re: Explain Heavy Metal to me please

Postby Frank Lopez » Thu Aug 22, 2013 5:22 pm

lostknife4 wrote:What I can't figure is why anyone except maybe St Patrick and his merry bunch of prostaffers buying and shooting this welding slag! If ya get it for free well maybe but anyone in their right mind is delusional thinking they are getting their money's worth if they are ill informed enough to buy it...
Lost


People will always believe that pouring more money into something will make it better. In this case, buying better ammunition will make them a better shot. And to an extent, that's true. But just as hope will always spring eternal from the human breast, there will always be hucksters and snake oil salesmen that will take advantage of this odd human quality and exploit it. The bottom line here is that you've got a 40 yard load with a 60 yard price tag.

Frank
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Re: Explain Heavy Metal to me please

Postby z51 » Thu Aug 22, 2013 5:33 pm

z51 wrote:Bottom line it's not worth the cost. If you want more pellets shoot 1 1/4 oz of #3s.


I don't often quote myself but this is from the fourth post of this thread. With this load from any of the big 3 you have a 50 yard load for a 40 yard price.
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Re: Explain Heavy Metal to me please

Postby BT Justice » Fri Aug 23, 2013 1:18 am

Thanks Doc
Lost your working for the Chinese aren't you..........LOLOLOL :lol3:
Maybe it was the steel 2" we were counting and not Hevi in our tests, most of the holes were about even and not perfectly round perhaps we used the wrong shot sizes in our tests. Again it was 10 years ago.

What I can state as fact is the duplex loads we used did not perform in the field as well as all steel or all Hevi loads. We tried them on Snow geese they did not do all that well at extended ranges for us.
We did find a good 3" Hevi load in RSI Hevishot load #8, 1 3/8 oz Hevi in a 3" Cheddite hull. We used the Cheddite primers vs. the Winchester and got 1460 AVG over the chrono. Since we had bought #4 Hevi we used it, on two separate CO snow goose hunts I was impressed...knocked the snot out of the geese at unreal ranges. One of the guys I was hunting with lased some of the geese with a rangefinder and got anywhere from 50 -65 yards on the birds we were shooting at(not sure how accurate a rangefinder is on geese but we figured it was about right). So I believe #4 Hevi does have that kind of killing range.
Even back then I was still a bit in sticker shock as we burned up quite a bit dollar wise for the 55 shells of Hevi loads we shot.

#2 Steel I also know works out to about 50 -52 yards in the field on ducks, I don't use it on geese. My go to long range 10 ga load for late season ducks is 1 3/8 oz of 2's at 1617 fps, I've taken enough outer limits ducks with this load over the years to know it works and works well.

So if both materials seem to have the range in the field, then it must be the make up of the duplex loads that is causing the poor patterning, as has been pointed out...only makes sense to me.
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Re: Explain Heavy Metal to me please

Postby lostknife4 » Fri Aug 23, 2013 7:20 am

My duplex loads are as follows: Steel in the top barrel and TSS in the bottom barrel and fire both barrels at once.
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Re: Explain Heavy Metal to me please

Postby zpstl321 » Fri Aug 23, 2013 8:28 am

Bug Doc wrote:Just a quick physics lesson. The pellets do not need to 'weigh' the same (more correctly, have more mass) in order to have the same ballistics. A steel #2 pellet has more mass than a #5 10g/cc density pellet, and thus will have more kinetic energy at the same velocity. However, since the larger #2 pellet has more surface area, it suffers from more drag (whether through the air or the organs of a duck). The larger pellet needs its extra energy to overcome its extra drag. EMI chose pellet sizes and densities that balanced the energy to drag ratio so they would decelerate at the same rate in the air and offer similar amounts of penetration upon impact.

Just like every other load of tungsten shot I've seen from EMI, the size of the shot in HM is not very consistent (my samples appeared to range from about #4 to #6). That likely will cause some lengthening of the shot string. How much is anyone's guess. :huh:

As I mentioned previously, it also appears the shape of the pellets may come into play. Since the tungsten pellets are not perfectly spherical, I'm guessing they probably suffer from asymmetric drag, causing them to veer from the original flight path to a greater extent than the rounder steel shot. That would explain why they migrate out of the pattern so quickly.


I am very much aware of the roll BC plays in time of flight. That's not what we are seeing even thought EMI would like you to believe so. Also, If your logic held you would see the same issue with Hevi 13 which is far from round and to my knowledge still hold the world record. You would also see the same thing happen to Xperts, yet they turn in patterns that often times beat round shot. I'm currently only aware of two issues that cause one type of shot to through donut patterns and you explanation isn't one of them. Heck, even EMI can be found quoted as saying the pellets that are not round align with the heaviest part of the shot forward giving them a higher BC and is the reason HS patterns better than round shot. That was their marketing hype back int he day when they tried to take over the turkey hunting market and could be found in most all of the magazines in which provided interviews.

If you study various patterns you'll see BC is not playing in the poor patterns. Note the patterns are fine, not better than average out to about 20 yards. If your logic held and drafting was true why do you see the effect worsen only for the time table in which the deceleration would occur if the steel truly was heavier and passed the tungsten? If you theory held would you not see tungsten come back to center as the distance widen? Would not the donut become unrecognizable? I'm thinking review of high speed videos might be in order...Seeing is believing. :)
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Re: Explain Heavy Metal to me please

Postby zpstl321 » Fri Aug 23, 2013 8:29 am

lostknife4 wrote:My duplex loads are as follows: Steel in the top barrel and TSS in the bottom barrel and fire both barrels at once.
Lost


Now that right there is funny!
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