Explain Heavy Metal to me please

Interact with others on shot gun shells, reloading, ballistics, chokes, or anything that has to do with your shooting.

Moderators: donell67, pennsyltucky, Ohio Wildfowler, NV Guide

Re: Explain Heavy Metal to me please

Postby SPatrick » Fri Aug 23, 2013 8:42 am

zpstl321 wrote:There really are thousands upon thousands of reviews that say the same thing in slightly different wording


Thats a bit of stretch, maybe from the same few folks.

I get great patterns out of my guns with hevi metal, but I think one thing most of y'all are forgetting is the fact that a large percentage of the general waterfowling public does not give a rats *** about patterning or even think about patterning their load/choke/gun combos. What most of them are concerned with is if they are getting dead ducks in the spread, and with some of the 15-30 yard patterns I have gotten and seen from others, that stuff is very dead. I think people automatically think if it comes from EMI it should be a long range shell, and HM is really not, its a pattern density shell. What people are willing to pay is up to them, and they should not be judged by that. Also ammo is a drop in the bucket compared to what we spend on all the other gear we acquire, Lost you say that all the time and it is 100% true. Also there is the human factor you are all forgetting, and it is based off confidence. 90% of wingshooting is confidence and IMO there is only so much science that can be read into it, and is truly more of an art. Yes patterns help show you where it is you are shooting, but coming up and taking a bird takes confidence, not science.
Shaun Patrick
Avery Prostaff
HEVI-Shot Prostaff
User avatar
SPatrick
State Moderator
 
Posts: 2077
Joined: Tue Oct 20, 2009 8:06 am
Location: MO


Re: Explain Heavy Metal to me please

Postby rebelcj7 » Fri Aug 23, 2013 9:54 am

Hevi Metal is a GREAT load and have shot it since its inception. It patterns extremely well out of my shotguns, better then MANY of the XYZ Steel Loads. I see the same results from other guys that have came over and patterned their guns.

Bottom line... Get a box or 50... pattern it with your guns and chokes and see how it works for YOU. Regardless of myself or 50000 other people who know its a GREAT Load. See for yourself, you won't be disappointed.

:beer:
User avatar
rebelcj7
hunter
 
Posts: 462
Joined: Mon Oct 24, 2005 2:47 pm
Location: Ozark, MO (swmo)

Re: Explain Heavy Metal to me please

Postby Bug Doc » Fri Aug 23, 2013 11:17 am

zpstl321 wrote:
I am very much aware of the roll BC plays in time of flight. That's not what we are seeing even thought EMI would like you to believe so. Also, If your logic held you would see the same issue with Hevi 13 which is far from round and to my knowledge still hold the world record. You would also see the same thing happen to Xperts, yet they turn in patterns that often times beat round shot. I'm currently only aware of two issues that cause one type of shot to through donut patterns and you explanation isn't one of them. Heck, even EMI can be found quoted as saying the pellets that are not round align with the heaviest part of the shot forward giving them a higher BC and is the reason HS patterns better than round shot. That was their marketing hype back int he day when they tried to take over the turkey hunting market and could be found in most all of the magazines in which provided interviews.

If you study various patterns you'll see BC is not playing in the poor patterns. Note the patterns are fine, not better than average out to about 20 yards. If your logic held and drafting was true why do you see the effect worsen only for the time table in which the deceleration would occur if the steel truly was heavier and passed the tungsten? If you theory held would you not see tungsten come back to center as the distance widen? Would not the donut become unrecognizable? I'm thinking review of high speed videos might be in order...Seeing is believing. :)


EMI may have marketed that their 'oblong' shot had a better BC, but they admitted in private that they got better patterns when they selectively removed the worst of the shot and used only round pellets. This just makes common sense. If you don't have rifling in a rifle (or even have the wrong twist-rate in the rifling), bullets tumble and go careening off like crazy. Why would you expect something as imprecise as welding slag to align itself in flight better than a boat-tail bullet?

The pattern efficiency of Hevi-Shot has always nagged at me in the back of my mind. The shot looks like crap, yet holds very nice patterns. I did a test recently that seemed to show that soft lead (which would deform at set-back) threw much wider patterns than equivalent loads of steel shot. However, AC Jones published a test where he determined that hard, buffered lead loads (with consequently little deformation) threw tighter patterns than steel. If deformation makes such a difference in 11g/cc lead, why does it not seem to effect 12g/cc Hevi-Shot? :huh:

The only hypothesis I can come up with has to do with the shape of the deformations. Perhaps the flat spots that form on soft lead at set-back are more aerodynamically effective at changing a pellet's flight path than the bulbous-but-still-sorta-round deformations of Hevi-Shot. I'll have to ponder that question some more.
Bug Doc
hunter
 
Posts: 436
Joined: Fri Apr 15, 2011 3:21 pm

Re: Explain Heavy Metal to me please

Postby dsm16428 » Fri Aug 23, 2013 2:46 pm

rebelcj7 wrote:Hevi Metal is a GREAT load and have shot it since its inception. It patterns extremely well out of my shotguns, better then MANY of the XYZ Steel Loads. I see the same results from other guys that have came over and patterned their guns.

Bottom line... Get a box or 50... pattern it with your guns and chokes and see how it works for YOU. Regardless of myself or 50000 other people who know its a GREAT Load. See for yourself, you won't be disappointed.

:beer:



Hush now Kenny. The adults are talking. :no:
Big Al's "Take-Em" Style Silhoutte Decoy Pro-Staff.
N.O. Outdoors Guide Service, President and CEO. "You try harder so we don't have to."
Don't do anything you wouldn't want to admit to the paramedics after.
dsm16428
hunter
 
Posts: 778
Joined: Mon May 28, 2012 7:15 am

Re: Explain Heavy Metal to me please

Postby lostknife4 » Fri Aug 23, 2013 2:56 pm

lostknife4 wrote:My duplex loads are as follows: Steel in the top barrel and TSS in the bottom barrel and fire both barrels at once.
Lost


I still think this is the only duplex load that is any good and boy does it ever have great pattern density..................
Lost
"It's not the game but the chase ~ not the trophy but the race !" from my Dad, many years ago.
User avatar
lostknife4
hunter
 
Posts: 4442
Joined: Sat Apr 03, 2010 4:32 pm
Location: Eastern Canada

Re: Explain Heavy Metal to me please

Postby Yuchi1 » Fri Aug 23, 2013 9:57 pm

How many of the HM Pro Staffers, shills and/or pimps have fired other types of shotshells that were furnished by the manufacturer?
Sent from my Sumerian tablets

Does the number of bands claimed simply mean you have an Ebay account?

FSH Pro Staffer

High Potentate, NSSB (no spinning shotcup brotherhood)
Yuchi1
hunter
 
Posts: 1626
Joined: Wed Jan 17, 2007 9:15 pm
Location: Creek Nation of Oklahoma

Re: Explain Heavy Metal to me please

Postby zpstl321 » Sat Aug 24, 2013 4:07 am

Bug Doc wrote:
zpstl321 wrote:
I am very much aware of the roll BC plays in time of flight. That's not what we are seeing even thought EMI would like you to believe so. Also, If your logic held you would see the same issue with Hevi 13 which is far from round and to my knowledge still hold the world record. You would also see the same thing happen to Xperts, yet they turn in patterns that often times beat round shot. I'm currently only aware of two issues that cause one type of shot to through donut patterns and you explanation isn't one of them. Heck, even EMI can be found quoted as saying the pellets that are not round align with the heaviest part of the shot forward giving them a higher BC and is the reason HS patterns better than round shot. That was their marketing hype back int he day when they tried to take over the turkey hunting market and could be found in most all of the magazines in which provided interviews.

If you study various patterns you'll see BC is not playing in the poor patterns. Note the patterns are fine, not better than average out to about 20 yards. If your logic held and drafting was true why do you see the effect worsen only for the time table in which the deceleration would occur if the steel truly was heavier and passed the tungsten? If you theory held would you not see tungsten come back to center as the distance widen? Would not the donut become unrecognizable? I'm thinking review of high speed videos might be in order...Seeing is believing. :)


EMI may have marketed that their 'oblong' shot had a better BC, but they admitted in private that they got better patterns when they selectively removed the worst of the shot and used only round pellets. This just makes common sense. If you don't have rifling in a rifle (or even have the wrong twist-rate in the rifling), bullets tumble and go careening off like crazy. Why would you expect something as imprecise as welding slag to align itself in flight better than a boat-tail bullet?

The pattern efficiency of Hevi-Shot has always nagged at me in the back of my mind. The shot looks like crap, yet holds very nice patterns. I did a test recently that seemed to show that soft lead (which would deform at set-back) threw much wider patterns than equivalent loads of steel shot. However, AC Jones published a test where he determined that hard, buffered lead loads (with consequently little deformation) threw tighter patterns than steel. If deformation makes such a difference in 11g/cc lead, why does it not seem to effect 12g/cc Hevi-Shot? :huh:

The only hypothesis I can come up with has to do with the shape of the deformations. Perhaps the flat spots that form on soft lead at set-back are more aerodynamically effective at changing a pellet's flight path than the bulbous-but-still-sorta-round deformations of Hevi-Shot. I'll have to ponder that question some more.



What I am finding is it appears to be more about the wad than shot shape. In fact I see a test in which EM hand loaded shells and sent them to a reviewer. He compared them to shells known to be loaded at the factory and the wad and shot count where both different. The wad that was split down the side 50% of the way held pretty good patterns considering it was Hevi-Metal. The normal wad again showed shot migration to the out side. In fact you could see 5 almost perfect donut circles created by the shot.

I've watched high speed videos of other brand of shells too and when using some chokes the wad flips sideways after a few feet and appeared to be before all of the shot had cleared. Some of the world record pattern shooters experimented with not splitting the wad at all while other went with 3/4 splits. Too I think Winchesters new tracer wad with retains some shot and tracks the shot pattern to the target is interesting and I have to wonder what the next step in wad evolution might be.
zpstl321
hunter
 
Posts: 512
Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2012 11:17 am

Re: Explain Heavy Metal to me please

Postby zpstl321 » Sat Aug 24, 2013 4:09 am

Yuchi1 wrote:How many of the HM Pro Staffers, shills and/or pimps have fired other types of shotshells that were furnished by the manufacturer?


One got busted on a goose hunting site. He used the same username to post on ebay. He was selling the cases of the free hevi metal he received from EM. :)
zpstl321
hunter
 
Posts: 512
Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2012 11:17 am

Re: Explain Heavy Metal to me please

Postby Yuchi1 » Sat Aug 24, 2013 10:16 pm

TimeMachine wrote:I am very familiar with Hevi-Shot and it's mass porperties.

What is Heavy Metal??? and are they any good? Looking for a little more umpfff for my kids 20ga during goose season.

Thanks ahead.


From my own pattern work observations as well as the findings posted up by Bug Doc & Joe Hunter, IMO, these loads may well serve a purpose for shooters with poor to mediocre wingshooting skills. By virtue of the apparent fact they (HM) tend to function similar to spreader loads at 30 yards and beyond, this may be helping those shooters that operate in the "spray and pray" theatre.

Of course, it can also function as a crippler of birds load as well.
Sent from my Sumerian tablets

Does the number of bands claimed simply mean you have an Ebay account?

FSH Pro Staffer

High Potentate, NSSB (no spinning shotcup brotherhood)
Yuchi1
hunter
 
Posts: 1626
Joined: Wed Jan 17, 2007 9:15 pm
Location: Creek Nation of Oklahoma

Re: Explain Heavy Metal to me please

Postby BT Justice » Sun Aug 25, 2013 2:01 am

Bug Doc wrote:The pattern efficiency of Hevi-Shot has always nagged at me in the back of my mind. The shot looks like crap, yet holds very nice patterns. I did a test recently that seemed to show that soft lead (which would deform at set-back) threw much wider patterns than equivalent loads of steel shot. However, AC Jones published a test where he determined that hard, buffered lead loads (with consequently little deformation) threw tighter patterns than steel. If deformation makes such a difference in 11g/cc lead, why does it not seem to effect 12g/cc Hevi-Shot? :huh:

The only hypothesis I can come up with has to do with the shape of the deformations. Perhaps the flat spots that form on soft lead at set-back are more aerodynamically effective at changing a pellet's flight path than the bulbous-but-still-sorta-round deformations of Hevi-Shot. I'll have to ponder that question some more.


Been wondering about that since they came out with Hevi. Lead shot can and does hold very good patterns out to long ranges if it's properly loaded, over the years I've started to think it's not deformation that plays such a big role in lead shot patterning as it is energy absorption/ dispersal from the type of material lead is.
Go back before they had plastic shotcups and the shot went down the barrel unprotected, patterns were a lot poorer than what we get today. Main question is was it bore scrub or the lead shot bouncing around in the barrel, loosing energy and getting disrupted even for the milliseconds it traveled down the barrel.
With materials like Hevi that are harder than lead, I don't believe they give up as much energy or get disrupted as much as lead does from the forces of firing a load and traveling down the barrel.
You can see it more on the terminal end of what you hit with either type of shot material, very rarely do I ever picked Hevi pellets out of a duck or goose, you get more blow through with them than you did with lead.
My two cents.
User avatar
BT Justice
hunter
 
Posts: 1494
Joined: Thu Apr 21, 2011 4:43 pm

Re: Explain Heavy Metal to me please

Postby rainingmallards » Sun Aug 25, 2013 7:23 am

It is a good shotgun shell. But so are other shells.
rainingmallards
hunter
 
Posts: 263
Joined: Fri Mar 29, 2013 7:35 am

Re: Explain Heavy Metal to me please

Postby Bug Doc » Sun Aug 25, 2013 10:31 pm

For anyone who's interested, here are a 30 & 50 yard pattern with the tungsten (red) and steel shot (black) identified separately.


Image

Image


These new patterns were quite consistent with the patterns I fired last year.
Bug Doc
hunter
 
Posts: 436
Joined: Fri Apr 15, 2011 3:21 pm

Re: Explain Heavy Metal to me please

Postby goosepit2007 » Mon Aug 26, 2013 7:44 am

thanks for confirming and indeed the results are the same perty much for you and what i found with my testing.


i even tried 3 different 12 gauges (reg bore,backbored,way over bored835). tried alot of different chokes extended and flush, the rsults stayed the same. basically a expensive spreader load/close range load. i did the test and got results,put in the old memory bank and moved on, caulk it up as advertising hype. I will stick to smaller steel shot loads for my dense patterns that are alot more uniform at ranges out to as far as the choke constriction allows the patterns to hold together per each choke/shot size for lethal kills. well if i do my part shooting.

thanks again for your time testing and posting
goosepit2007
hunter
 
Posts: 883
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2012 8:13 pm

Re: Explain Heavy Metal to me please

Postby Yuchi1 » Sun Oct 13, 2013 9:56 pm

Was in the local BPS this PM and there was a Hevi Shot booth with a Pro staffer esconched therein. I asked him why EMI discontinued HeviSteel. He said because HeviMetal was a better product and outpatterned it. However, when I informed him that was a load of bovine caca, he could not offer a rebuttal. I guess he had only been dealing with pilgrims and hadn't yet encountered someone that knew better. His final response was the SpeedBall product was superior to anything out there.

What a total crock.

Took the boxes of centerfire ammo in hand back to the shelf as I refuse to do business with an establishment that espouses such BS.
Last edited by Yuchi1 on Mon Oct 14, 2013 8:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
Sent from my Sumerian tablets

Does the number of bands claimed simply mean you have an Ebay account?

FSH Pro Staffer

High Potentate, NSSB (no spinning shotcup brotherhood)
Yuchi1
hunter
 
Posts: 1626
Joined: Wed Jan 17, 2007 9:15 pm
Location: Creek Nation of Oklahoma

Re: Explain Heavy Metal to me please

Postby SPatrick » Mon Oct 14, 2013 6:18 am

The staffer most likely has not done any research in regards to the shell difference, or probably never fired hevi steel. Great shells, the real answer is a cost effectiveness issue. As much as it sucks to say, folks gotta make a buck, Hevi Steel, was just cutting to close to be cost effective.
Shaun Patrick
Avery Prostaff
HEVI-Shot Prostaff
User avatar
SPatrick
State Moderator
 
Posts: 2077
Joined: Tue Oct 20, 2009 8:06 am
Location: MO

Re: Explain Heavy Metal to me please

Postby lostknife4 » Mon Oct 14, 2013 7:30 am

St Patrick if those shells were as good as HM told everyone they were, then they would have sold at twice the price! The answer to that question is greed, change the payload by dilution, sell for more money and market the hell out of it!!!!!!!!! TSS is a LOT more expensive and sales are increasing at a steady rate because people who are informed will buy what works best and are willing to pay extra for it, the demise for HM will be the day that TSS becomes a factory loading.
Lost
"It's not the game but the chase ~ not the trophy but the race !" from my Dad, many years ago.
User avatar
lostknife4
hunter
 
Posts: 4442
Joined: Sat Apr 03, 2010 4:32 pm
Location: Eastern Canada

Re: Explain Heavy Metal to me please

Postby Yuchi1 » Mon Oct 14, 2013 7:48 am

SPatrick wrote:The staffer most likely has not done any research in regards to the shell difference, or probably never fired hevi steel. Great shells, the real answer is a cost effectiveness issue. As much as it sucks to say, folks gotta make a buck, Hevi Steel, was just cutting to close to be cost effective.


Patrick,

With all due respect, that just does not make sense. EMI could've simply raised the price (still, would be much less than the SpeedBall product) instead, you're saying (and, apparently as you've been told by corporate) they came out with a cheaper (read: inferior) product with the HeviMetal line. Bug Doc's findings were replicated by not only myself as well as numerous others and for me, it was a major disappointment as I/we had high expectations for HM, in the beginning.

There is a local sporting goods retailer with several pallets of HM on the floor and despite the dearth of regular steel ammo, that stuff is just sitting there, collecting dust.

Ironically, with this product being (as per, goosepit3007) more or less an expensive spreader load, it probably would be somewhat of a good option for those with poor wingshooting skills, keeping shots at <30 yards.
Sent from my Sumerian tablets

Does the number of bands claimed simply mean you have an Ebay account?

FSH Pro Staffer

High Potentate, NSSB (no spinning shotcup brotherhood)
Yuchi1
hunter
 
Posts: 1626
Joined: Wed Jan 17, 2007 9:15 pm
Location: Creek Nation of Oklahoma

Re: Explain Heavy Metal to me please

Postby Yuchi1 » Mon Oct 14, 2013 7:55 am

Bug Doc wrote:For anyone who's interested, here are a 30 & 50 yard pattern with the tungsten (red) and steel shot (black) identified separately.


Image

Image


These new patterns were quite consistent with the patterns I fired last year.


Doc,

Do you have any idea(s) as to why these loads fly apart so quickly?

IMO, the (lightweight @~9gm/cc) tungsten pellets are encountering more and more turbulence as the pattern blooms and thus, exacerbating the spreading phenomen.
Sent from my Sumerian tablets

Does the number of bands claimed simply mean you have an Ebay account?

FSH Pro Staffer

High Potentate, NSSB (no spinning shotcup brotherhood)
Yuchi1
hunter
 
Posts: 1626
Joined: Wed Jan 17, 2007 9:15 pm
Location: Creek Nation of Oklahoma

Re: Explain Heavy Metal to me please

Postby BBK » Mon Oct 14, 2013 8:58 am

Hevi-metal does not make a lick of sense to me, but it kills. I can attest to that! It hits birds hard and puts them down. Not any different than steel, which also kills them to the same level :lol3:

I have cut them open, they have 10-15 more pellets vs a standard steel load (3's). Not enough to make any difference. And surely not enough to warrant the $31.99 a box a local shop has them at.. for THREE INCH! (I do realize this is crazy high).
Why do I shoot 3.5" for geese? Because they don't make a 4" yet!
BBK
hunter
 
Posts: 3282
Joined: Mon Oct 24, 2011 11:15 pm

Re: Explain Heavy Metal to me please

Postby SPatrick » Mon Oct 14, 2013 9:00 am

Yuchi, you have to remember that when hevi steel was being marketed the ammo prices were not near as inflated as they are today. Today most folks are willing to spend 20-25 bucks for a box of shells and not bat an eye, at that time (5 years ago) that price was unheard of.
Shaun Patrick
Avery Prostaff
HEVI-Shot Prostaff
User avatar
SPatrick
State Moderator
 
Posts: 2077
Joined: Tue Oct 20, 2009 8:06 am
Location: MO

Re: Explain Heavy Metal to me please

Postby TimeMachine » Mon Oct 14, 2013 9:20 am

the bird in the 30 yard pattern has been turned into hamburger and for all practical purposes, is not even edible.
Signature???....We don't need no stinking signature
TimeMachine
hunter
 
Posts: 249
Joined: Tue Oct 07, 2008 1:00 pm
Location: Houston

Re: Explain Heavy Metal to me please

Postby BBK » Mon Oct 14, 2013 9:32 am

TimeMachine wrote:the bird in the 30 yard pattern has been turned into hamburger and for all practical purposes, is not even edible.


Don't understand what you are getting at here?
Why do I shoot 3.5" for geese? Because they don't make a 4" yet!
BBK
hunter
 
Posts: 3282
Joined: Mon Oct 24, 2011 11:15 pm

Re: Explain Heavy Metal to me please

Postby Bug Doc » Mon Oct 14, 2013 10:47 am

Yuchi1 wrote:
Doc,

Do you have any idea(s) as to why these loads fly apart so quickly?

IMO, the (lightweight @~9gm/cc) tungsten pellets are encountering more and more turbulence as the pattern blooms and thus, exacerbating the spreading phenomen.


I'm not entirely sure why the tungsten shot flies off like it does. Based on the patterns it doesn't appear to be wad interference, nor does it appear like the steel shot is blowing through the tungsten shot. I'm having a similar problem with some ITX-10 I was fooling around with this year: the patterns degrade substantially from 40 to 50 yards. With the ITX I'm guessing the issue is cylindrical belt, which has to provide a great deal of asymmetric drag. It's possible the tungsten shot in Hevi-Metal is small enough, light enough, and misshapen enough to suffer similar drag. It's the best explanation I can come up with. :huh:
Bug Doc
hunter
 
Posts: 436
Joined: Fri Apr 15, 2011 3:21 pm

Re: Explain Heavy Metal to me please

Postby Bug Doc » Mon Oct 14, 2013 10:51 am

TimeMachine wrote:the bird in the 30 yard pattern has been turned into hamburger and for all practical purposes, is not even edible.


I don't know if you ever had the chance to shoot lead shot at waterfowl, but that pattern isn't substantially different than those most guys got with light 1-1/4oz loads of lead 4's, and is quite a bit LESS dense than typical patterns from 1-1/4oz of lead 5's or 6's. You can imagine what a pattern from a 1-5/8oz of lead 6's looked like. :eek:
Bug Doc
hunter
 
Posts: 436
Joined: Fri Apr 15, 2011 3:21 pm

Re: Explain Heavy Metal to me please

Postby Justin Weber » Mon Oct 14, 2013 11:30 am

Little late here but I have started using Hevi Metal for geese. I use to think it was a joke like most people. I then talked to a few guys and they convinced me to give it a try. I ussually use the cheapest stuff I can find. However after using this stuff for a little while with a PM Choke all I can say is wow. I tend to find myself casing my shotgun before the rest of the group now waiting for them to get their limit and get out. Next year Im probably gonna switch over to only Hevi Metal.
Avery Pro-Staff
Justin Weber
hunter
 
Posts: 305
Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2013 12:42 pm
Location: Wisconsin

PreviousNext

Return to Shotshell, Reloading, Ballistics, & Chokes

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 8 guests