7/8 oz B's 1824 fps

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7/8 oz B's 1824 fps

Postby Jon Bergren » Thu Sep 12, 2013 10:12 am

This was a GM hull in my 935 with 7/8 oz of B's at 1824 fps.
935 Mod choke 68/75 90% at 40 yds
935 Full choke 70/75 94% at 40 yds
Ned S
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Re: 7/8 oz B's 1824 fps

Postby dakotashooter2 » Thu Sep 12, 2013 10:43 am

SIGH...................................

Most 12 ga shooters will claim that a 20 ga load of 7/8 to 1 oz doesn't have enough pattern density to get the job done on big birds ....But a 7/8 oz 12 ga load does??????????? :fingerhead:
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Re: 7/8 oz B's 1824 fps

Postby Jon Bergren » Thu Sep 12, 2013 11:08 am

A 8 lb Lesser takes 35 fairly evenly distributed pellets the 30" pattern circle to put 5 pellets in the Lesser. A 12 pounder requires 23 pellets to 5 pellets in it. The bigger the goose the less pellets. Those B's at 1765 fps will penetrate to kill to 66.5 yds. If I would put a Terror choke on this load I probably could kill to 60 yds. Ned S
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Re: 7/8 oz B's 1824 fps

Postby bbs383ci » Thu Sep 12, 2013 1:18 pm

the size of the load is not what kills, its the density of the load at a given yardage and if you have enough density at the yardage you shoot then a 1/2oz load will kill just as quickly as a 1 1/2oz load. i would imagine that if your shot is centered on the bird on impact, i bet it only comes to about 1/2oz of shot that actually kills the bird. this is entirely specualtion, but by looking at the size of a bird in flight kill zone it is very small even if you add wings to it, its still very small target.

now i shoot 1 1/8oz loads because i like pattern density over high speeds but thats just me. :biggrin:
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Re: 7/8 oz B's 1824 fps

Postby Frank Lopez » Thu Sep 12, 2013 1:55 pm

Jon Bergren wrote:A 8 lb Lesser takes 35 fairly evenly distributed pellets the 30" pattern circle to put 5 pellets in the Lesser. A 12 pounder requires 23 pellets to 5 pellets in it.


Burrard recommended 70 pellets in a 30 inch circle for geese (mostly he shot pink footed geese that range from 4 to 7.5lbs). Roster, in his 2013 table recommends 50 to 55 pellets In a 30 inch circle for large geese and 60 to 65 pellets for small to medium geese.

This does not mean that Ned's numbers won't kill, even a blind hog finds an acorn every now and again. What it means is that a 35 pellet pattern, no matter how well distributed, will not be statistically reliable to consistently kill geese.

Still, Ned did an admirable job by shooting what is generally considered goose killing patterns by both Burrard and Roster at 40 yards with only a 7/8oz load. :thumbsup:

My only question is what would that pattern look like at 50 yards and all things being equal, what would a 1 1/4oz load pattern look like under the same conditions except, of course, the velocity?

Frank
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Re: 7/8 oz B's 1824 fps

Postby Jon Bergren » Thu Sep 12, 2013 2:45 pm

This blind hog finds an acorn about every time he shoots this load including 50 yarders. Ballistically it is a killer. Ned S
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Re: 7/8 oz B's 1824 fps

Postby Frank Lopez » Thu Sep 12, 2013 3:06 pm

Jon Bergren wrote:This blind hog finds an acorn about every time he shoots this load including 50 yarders. Ballistically it is a killer. Ned S



For the most part, I agree. It's pretty likely that that load and choke will still have Roster's minimums of 60 pellets for small and medium geese at 50 yards. Roster's recommendations, if I recall correctly, are based on between a 90 to 95% probability of a kill (B1 behavior is what he calls it) for any bird caught in that pattern.

Frank
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Re: 7/8 oz B's 1824 fps

Postby dakotashooter2 » Thu Sep 12, 2013 3:56 pm

Don't get me wrong I wasn't trying to imply that it wasn't a killer load. I shoot mostly 20 ga and know what a 7/8 oz load is capable of. I was just stiring the pot a bit. Everbody always wants to point out how much better the 12 is than the 20. Since they can't argue velocity they always argue payload. I can see guys jumping on the speed bandwagon for a 7/8oz 12 ga load and then backpedal and sputter when you ask why a 7/8 oz 12 ga load is better tha a 7/8 oz 20 ga load (density wise).......... :umm: :umm:
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Re: 7/8 oz B's 1824 fps

Postby lostknife4 » Thu Sep 12, 2013 6:36 pm

dakotashooter2 wrote:Don't get me wrong I wasn't trying to imply that it wasn't a killer load. I shoot mostly 20 ga and know what a 7/8 oz load is capable of. I was just stiring the pot a bit. Everbody always wants to point out how much better the 12 is than the 20. Since they can't argue velocity they always argue payload. I can see guys jumping on the speed bandwagon for a 7/8oz 12 ga load and then backpedal and sputter when you ask why a 7/8 oz 12 ga load is better tha a 7/8 oz 20 ga load (density wise).......... :umm: :umm:


If we're talking mass "density" then we best consider # 9 TSS at 18 g/cc. And whether from a 12, 20 or 28 there will be sufficient pattern "density", velocity and Gel Penetration "to kill" at much further ranges than 7/8 oz of steel and using an IC choke!!!!!!!!!!!
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Re: 7/8 oz B's 1824 fps

Postby Sagebrush » Thu Sep 12, 2013 7:41 pm

That is a lot of pellets tearing up the meat..................

Why not just use T's and stop making hamburger out of all that meat ?
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Re: 7/8 oz B's 1824 fps

Postby mudpack » Fri Sep 13, 2013 1:30 pm

Jon Bergren wrote:This blind hog finds an acorn about every time he shoots this load including 50 yarders. Ballistically it is a killer. Ned S

This could be true if all shots are under 30 yards. Unfortunatly, many times we take shots that require a larger payload to keep pattern density up to minimum requirements.

Ned, your numbers for "evenly distributed pellets in a 30 inch circle" are about half of what is actually needed. Take the number of square inches in that circle, divide by the number of square inches of vital area of the geese in question, then use that percentage to compare. You say 1/5 to 1/7 of the total pellets in the pattern need to find their way into the goose (for the minimum of 5 pellets). There are a LOT more than 5 or 7 vital goose areas in a 30" circle. Your math has always been your downfall.
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Re: 7/8 oz B's 1824 fps

Postby The Drake » Fri Sep 13, 2013 1:44 pm

Jon Bergren wrote:A 8 lb Lesser takes 35 fairly evenly distributed pellets the 30" pattern circle to put 5 pellets in the Lesser. A 12 pounder requires 23 pellets to 5 pellets in it. The bigger the goose the less pellets. Those B's at 1765 fps will penetrate to kill to 66.5 yds. If I would put a Terror choke on this load I probably could kill to 60 yds. Ned S


For the sake of not crippling please take Jon/Ned's numbers and add at least 50%-75% more pellets for clean kills. :welcome:
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Re: 7/8 oz B's 1824 fps

Postby lostknife4 » Fri Sep 13, 2013 1:56 pm

The Drake wrote:
For the sake of not crippling please take Jon/Ned's numbers and add at least 50%-75% more pellets for clean kills. :welcome:

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Re: 7/8 oz B's 1824 fps

Postby Jon Bergren » Fri Sep 13, 2013 2:02 pm

Wrong, I get a very high rate of kill with the 7/8 oz B load, like 3 shells per two birds, alot of the times 3 for 3. Ned S
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Re: 7/8 oz B's 1824 fps

Postby Frank Lopez » Fri Sep 13, 2013 2:16 pm

Jon Bergren wrote:Wrong, I get a very high rate of kill with the 7/8 oz B load, like 3 shells per two birds, alot of the times 3 for 3. Ned S


2 birds fro 3 shells is only 66% efficiency! Now, the question is, are you missing that third bird clean or is your marksmanship true, but your equipment lacking to the point where you are unknowingly wounding birds? Rather like looking at averages in skeet. There are lots of people that are AAA shooters, but their averages dip down to A or AA with the .410.

Look at it another way. A goose has a vital area of about 20 square inches. There are some 706 square inches in a 30 inch circle. Pure probability would dictate dividing the 706 by 20 to get the probability of a single hit. That would be about 35 pellets evenly distributed in the pattern. The problem here, and it is huge, is that shotgun patterns are NOT evenly distributed! They are Gaussian and are pretty much weighted to the center. So, in order to achieve that 90 to 95% probability of a kill (even a 35 pellet pattern has some probability of a clean kill), we need to increase the pellet population in the 30 inch pattern. This is where Roster, Burrard and others have come up with numbers varying from 60 to 70 pellets for medium to small geese. Roster's numbers for large geese (50 to 55 pellets) are for birds that have a decidedly larger target (vital) area.

Frank
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Re: 7/8 oz B's 1824 fps

Postby Jon Bergren » Fri Sep 13, 2013 5:13 pm

Frank Lopez wrote:
Jon Bergren wrote:Wrong, I get a very high rate of kill with the 7/8 oz B load, like 3 shells per two birds, alot of the times 3 for 3. Ned S


2 birds fro 3 shells is only 66% efficiency! Now, the question is, are you missing that third bird clean or is your marksmanship true, but your equipment lacking to the point where you are unknowingly wounding birds? Rather like looking at averages in skeet. There are lots of people that are AAA shooters, but their averages dip down to A or AA with the .410.

Look at it another way. A goose has a vital area of about 20 square inches. There are some 706 square inches in a 30 inch circle. Pure probability would dictate dividing the 706 by 20 to get the probability of a single hit. That would be about 35 pellets evenly distributed in the pattern. The problem here, and it is huge, is that shotgun patterns are NOT evenly distributed! They are Gaussian and are pretty much weighted to the center. So, in order to achieve that 90 to 95% probability of a kill (even a 35 pellet pattern has some probability of a clean kill), we need to increase the pellet population in the 30 inch pattern. This is where Roster, Burrard and others have come up with numbers varying from 60 to 70 pellets for medium to small geese. Roster's numbers for large geese (50 to 55 pellets) are for birds that have a decidedly larger target (vital) area.

Frank


My pattern distrubtion for my 7/8 oz B load is such that it puts about 68 pellets in the 30" circle. At 40 yds that's 9 pellets per 8 lb Lesser almost twice what is required. Most of my birds are shot at less than 40 yds over decoys. You can't see any further than your nose Lopez. My pattern is about as even as you can get with the goose getting the killing pellets. Think what a 30 yd pattern is doing to the bird, they look like they have been riddled. I do not care what Roster is saying now, 5 pellets will bring the goose to the ground. Roster use to say that 5 pellets would kill a goose. His mallard data is the same at 4 pellets. He had to change his pellets for geese as the CONSEP data would have been the same he had preached before CONSEP. It really was a waste of money as most hunters are shooting 1550 fps shells and up. Also Lopez you do not shoot or ever have killed geese with 7/8 oz of B's but yet you think you're an authority, the fact is you're not. I kill geese dead with this load at 50 yds. Many mornings I got 3 geese the first round. Ned S
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Re: 7/8 oz B's 1824 fps

Postby Frank Lopez » Fri Sep 13, 2013 6:16 pm

Jon Bergren wrote:
Frank Lopez wrote:
Jon Bergren wrote:Wrong, I get a very high rate of kill with the 7/8 oz B load, like 3 shells per two birds, alot of the times 3 for 3. Ned S


2 birds fro 3 shells is only 66% efficiency! Now, the question is, are you missing that third bird clean or is your marksmanship true, but your equipment lacking to the point where you are unknowingly wounding birds? Rather like looking at averages in skeet. There are lots of people that are AAA shooters, but their averages dip down to A or AA with the .410.

Look at it another way. A goose has a vital area of about 20 square inches. There are some 706 square inches in a 30 inch circle. Pure probability would dictate dividing the 706 by 20 to get the probability of a single hit. That would be about 35 pellets evenly distributed in the pattern. The problem here, and it is huge, is that shotgun patterns are NOT evenly distributed! They are Gaussian and are pretty much weighted to the center. So, in order to achieve that 90 to 95% probability of a kill (even a 35 pellet pattern has some probability of a clean kill), we need to increase the pellet population in the 30 inch pattern. This is where Roster, Burrard and others have come up with numbers varying from 60 to 70 pellets for medium to small geese. Roster's numbers for large geese (50 to 55 pellets) are for birds that have a decidedly larger target (vital) area.

Frank


My pattern distrubtion for my 7/8 oz B load is such that it puts about 68 pellets in the 30" circle. At 40 yds that's 9 pellets per 8 lb Lesser almost twice what is required. Most of my birds are shot at less than 40 yds over decoys. You can't see any further than your nose Lopez. My pattern is about as even as you can get with the goose getting the killing pellets. Think what a 30 yd pattern is doing to the bird, they look like they have been riddled. I do not care what Roster is saying now, 5 pellets will bring the goose to the ground. Roster use to say that 5 pellets would kill a goose. His mallard data is the same at 4 pellets. He had to change his pellets for geese as the CONSEP data would have been the same he had preached before CONSEP. It really was a waste of money as most hunters are shooting 1550 fps shells and up. Also Lopez you do not shoot or ever have killed geese with 7/8 oz of B's but yet you think you're an authority, the fact is you're not. I kill geese dead with this load at 50 yds. Many mornings I got 3 geese the first round. Ned S


Having some difficulty with reading comprehension, Ned? No one is questioning a pattern with 68 pellet strikes. What is being questioned is your insistence that a 35 pellet strike pattern is sufficient for geese. Go back and follow the thread. Do it slowly and carefully. You told The Drake, Lostknife and Mudpack that they were wrong for stating that a pellet count of 50 to 75% higher than your prescribed 35 was more suitable. The fact is that they were wrong to the extent that 50 to 75% wasn't nearly enough. It would take somewhere near a 90% increase to meat the minimums prescribed by virtually every recognized authority. Your 68 pellet pattern works because it is a 90% pattern, not because it will put 8 pellets into a goose. The fact is that it is statistically as likely to put half as many pellets into the bird as it is to put that many. Patterns, useful patterns at least, are Gaussian, they are center weighted in a fairly predictable ratio depending on the overall population of the pattern. Start analyzing your patterns by using concentric circles of 10, 20 and 30 inches and seeing the pellet distribution across those segments.

You keep telling us that most of your birds are shot at less than 40 yards over decoys. That is admirable. And, considering that your pattern contains between 68 and 70 pellets, depending on your choke, you are wise to keep your shots inside of that range. But depending on the rate of decay of your pattern, by the time you get to 50 yards or a little beyond, you will see a drop off in kills on birds that are centered in the pattern. You also loose sight of the fact that lighter loads loose pattern density before heavier loads and tend to sacrifice that pattern density in favor of velocity. This is counter productive with respect to shooting at ranges over 40 yards. Of course, you could choke the snot out of the load, but then you'd have some problems closer in. But, given your post, you seem to have noticed that, but choose to ignore the fat that it is detrimental from both accuracy and culinary aspects.

And, for the record, I really have no problem with you questioning anything I've posted, I really don't. But, be advised that you make yourself look the fool when you question published authorities and cannot substantiate your claims or position.

Frank
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Re: 7/8 oz B's 1824 fps

Postby Jon Bergren » Fri Sep 13, 2013 7:16 pm

Your wrong again Lopaz. 5 pellets will kill geese. I have picked many a goose with 5 pellet hits. Again we helped kill 400-600 lessers a year for many years. Roster did taut 5 pellet kills before CONSEP. My examination of killed geese is just as valid as anyone elses. Also I don't generaly shoot geese past 50 yds with my pet 7/8 oz of B load. Ned S
Last edited by Jon Bergren on Fri Sep 13, 2013 7:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 7/8 oz B's 1824 fps

Postby orphanedcowboy » Fri Sep 13, 2013 7:39 pm

Jon Bergren wrote:Wrong, I get a very high rate of kill with the 7/8 oz B load, like 3 shells per two birds, alot of the times 3 for 3. Ned S


When, Proof? One day you hunt, one day you don't, do you actually have anything to back up these claims? How many days did you hunt last season? The season before, when did you start using this load?
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Re: 7/8 oz B's 1824 fps

Postby Jon Bergren » Fri Sep 13, 2013 8:00 pm

orphanedcowboy wrote:
Jon Bergren wrote:Wrong, I get a very high rate of kill with the 7/8 oz B load, like 3 shells per two birds, alot of the times 3 for 3. Ned S


When, Proof? One day you hunt, one day you don't, do you actually have anything to back up these claims? How many days did you hunt last season? The season before, when did you start using this load?


When I started hunting with the Hereford Gang in the early 90's, we killed 400-600 Lessers a year hunting week ends and vacations. I started using 7/8 oz of B's at 1765 fps when it was published before the 1998 season. I have used it ever since the fall of 1998 doing pattern work that summer as I got the manual 12 Mar 1998. I did not hunt geese last summer as i have posted many times because of taking care of Dona. I also did not hunt Cranes and went mallard hunting twice with my Pastor Son both of us limiting on Mallards as well as the bonus ducks both times. Because of Dona my hunting days are pretty much over unless we move to Ok.
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Re: 7/8 oz B's 1824 fps

Postby goosepit2007 » Fri Sep 13, 2013 8:28 pm

first of if you have not shot that load with b's do not nock it untill you try it. i hunt from sept -last day of spring season, and i bring that very same load to the field all the time. that load is no different than the people that bring the 3 inch 11/8 of bb's going 1550 fps to shoot ducks/geese with that load. the difference is that the b's seems to hit the birds alot harder than 11/8 of bb's over the same yardages. there is no mistaking if hit the bird or not it folds them up just like back in the lead days. well you would now what that is like if you have hunted ducks long enough. i have killed alot of mallards that came into the fields that decided to join the honkers to feeding grounds for day. also in the spring i shoot alot of snows with that load. its very simple it works. My dad and i patterned and used that load the very first time that we seen that alliant put it in there manual. I can not remember if it was first year or not, that does not really make difference but i have shot that load for some 13 to 14 years. That load has not left me wanting a different load in the gun when i pulled the trigger.
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Re: 7/8 oz B's 1824 fps

Postby Frank Lopez » Fri Sep 13, 2013 8:47 pm

Ned, I'll try and make it simple so that you can understand it. No one is arguing that 5 pellets won't kill a goose. What is being contended is the ability to consistently put 5 pellets into a goose with a pattern that contains only 35 pellet strikes in a 30 inch circle. ONE pellet, properly placed will kill a goose! but the odds of that happening are remote, at best.

Goosepit, Of course that load will work consistently so long as there are sufficient pellets in the pattern (60 to 65) to ensure that the probability of a pellet striking a vital organ is sufficient. The point here is that 35 pellets however well distributed in a 30 inch pattern, will not provide the necessary density to ensure that any bird caught in the pattern will be killed. Typically, we as sportsmen should be looking for something about 90% efficiency. The patterns that were originally posted meet that criteria. The belief that only 35 pellets are the minimum necessary do not.

Frank
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Re: 7/8 oz B's 1824 fps

Postby lostknife4 » Fri Sep 13, 2013 9:49 pm

CONVINCE A MAN AGAINST HIS WILL ~~ HE'S OF THE SAME OPINION STILL!!!!!!
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Re: 7/8 oz B's 1824 fps

Postby Jon Bergren » Fri Sep 13, 2013 10:02 pm

goosepit2007 wrote:first of if you have not shot that load with b's do not nock it untill you try it. i hunt from sept -last day of spring season, and i bring that very same load to the field all the time. that load is no different than the people that bring the 3 inch 11/8 of bb's going 1550 fps to shoot ducks/geese with that load. the difference is that the b's seems to hit the birds alot harder than 11/8 of bb's over the same yardages. there is no mistaking if hit the bird or not it folds them up just like back in the lead days. well you would now what that is like if you have hunted ducks long enough. i have killed alot of mallards that came into the fields that decided to join the honkers to feeding grounds for day. also in the spring i shoot alot of snows with that load. its very simple it works. My dad and i patterned and used that load the very first time that we seen that alliant put it in there manual. I can not remember if it was first year or not, that does not really make difference but i have shot that load for some 13 to 14 years. That load has not left me wanting a different load in the gun when i pulled the trigger.


The 7/8 oz load was first published by Alliant March 1998. My flier was post marked March of 12. I first tried the recipe with BB's then switched to B's after researching the Ballistics. I gave several BB loads to A.T. Griffin. He killed a Lesser at 59 yds with it in his gun back 1998. The distance was measured with a range finder. Ned S
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Re: 7/8 oz B's 1824 fps

Postby Jon Bergren » Fri Sep 13, 2013 10:21 pm

Frank Lopez wrote:Ned, I'll try and make it simple so that you can understand it. No one is arguing that 5 pellets won't kill a goose. What is being contended is the ability to consistently put 5 pellets into a goose with a pattern that contains only 35 pellet strikes in a 30 inch circle. ONE pellet, properly placed will kill a goose! but the odds of that happening are remote, at best.

Killing geese with 35 pellets is your Idea. Pay attention just once and comprehend. The choke I use puts 68 pellets in the circle so you are actually putting 9+ pellets in the geese at 40 yds. Also the majority of first shots are taken at 20 yds in the decoys. Think of the number of pellets hitting the goose at 20 and 30 yds about 10. 7. 35 pellets in the circle is at 50 yds. Now I have made it as simple as I can. Oh, I forgot you probablly can't understand this simple explanation as you couldnn't figure out why the shotshell ejecta may spin and sometimes does. Ned S

Goosepit, Of course that load will work consistently so long as there are sufficient pellets in the pattern (60 to 65) to ensure that the probability of a pellet striking a vital organ is sufficient. The point here is that 35 pellets however well distributed in a 30 inch pattern, will not provide the necessary density to ensure that any bird caught in the pattern will be killed. Typically, we as sportsmen should be looking for something about 90% efficiency. The patterns that were originally posted meet that criteria. The belief that only 35 pellets are the minimum necessary do not.

Then why many of the geese I picked were killed dead and had only 5 pellets in them. I pick alot of geese in my day. I remember one Speck that lit dead at my feet had 4 BB's clear thru it because I shot it overhead, One pellet in each shoulder and one on each sideof the gut toward the rear. Non were in the head or neck because I examined it thoroughly. Again these findings are just as valid as anyone elses observations. Ned S

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