7/8 oz B's 1824 fps

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Re: 7/8 oz B's 1824 fps

Postby lostknife4 » Sat Sep 14, 2013 6:54 am

Jon Bergren wrote:
Frank Lopez wrote:Ned, I'll try and make it simple so that you can understand it. No one is arguing that 5 pellets won't kill a goose. What is being contended is the ability to consistently put 5 pellets into a goose with a pattern that contains only 35 pellet strikes in a 30 inch circle. ONE pellet, properly placed will kill a goose! but the odds of that happening are remote, at best.

Killing geese with 35 pellets is your Idea. Pay attention just once and comprehend. The choke I use puts 68 pellets in the circle so you are actually putting 9+ pellets in the geese at 40 yds. Also the majority of first shots are taken at 20 yds in the decoys. Think of the number of pellets hitting the goose at 20 and 30 yds about 10. 7. 35 pellets in the circle is at 50 yds. Now I have made it as simple as I can. Oh, I forgot you probablly can't understand this simple explanation as you couldnn't figure out why the shotshell ejecta may spin and sometimes does. Ned S
You haven't proven that hypothesis yet Ned and I doubt we will ever see any conclusive published proof on it either. High speed pictures or published results from ballistic laboratories would be nice to see. Any of the high speed pictures I have seen and published on here clearly indicate that there is NO spin, including rifled slugs all from smooth bore barrels. The onus is upon you Ned to prove your claims.


Goosepit, Of course that load will work consistently so long as there are sufficient pellets in the pattern (60 to 65) to ensure that the probability of a pellet striking a vital organ is sufficient. The point here is that 35 pellets however well distributed in a 30 inch pattern, will not provide the necessary density to ensure that any bird caught in the pattern will be killed. Typically, we as sportsmen should be looking for something about 90% efficiency. The patterns that were originally posted meet that criteria. The belief that only 35 pellets are the minimum necessary do not.

Then why many of the geese I picked were killed dead and had only 5 pellets in them. I pick alot of geese in my day. I remember one Speck that lit dead at my feet had 4 BB's clear thru it because I shot it overhead, One pellet in each shoulder and one on each sideof the gut toward the rear. Non were in the head or neck because I examined it thoroughly. Again these findings are just as valid as anyone elses observations. Ned S
A necropsy on one bird hardly is sufficient population to establish a "rule"

Frank


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Re: 7/8 oz B's 1824 fps

Postby mudpack » Sat Sep 14, 2013 7:23 am

Thanks, Lost, for helping us clarify what ned was saying in Frank's post.

Ned, you seem to be backing away from your original claim of 35 and 23 pellets in a 30" circle will put 5 pellets in a goose reliably, now focusing on number of pellets in a goose to kill it. As has been said, no one disputes that 5 pellets in a goose will statistically be sufficient. What is totally wrong with your claims is the pattern density (pellets in the circle) it takes to produce those 5 pellets in the goose. Like Frank said, go back and read all the posts and see what you said and what others said.

Frank, I agree that ned needs to increase his "pellets in the pattern" by more than 75%. In my post I suggested a 100% increase.

Also, the fact (assuming that it is a fact) that E.P.Fudd killed a goose with your shell in 1997 at 67.3 yards is anecdotal evidence....which means it is not evidence at all. The word "aberration" comes to mind. Ned, you should be embarrassed to present it as proof supporting your position.

I suppose I'll get another PM from you now, suggesting you are considering suing me for slander, defamation of character, or some other crime you think I'm guilty of.....
Last edited by mudpack on Tue Sep 17, 2013 12:26 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: 7/8 oz B's 1824 fps

Postby Jon Bergren » Sat Sep 14, 2013 7:24 am

Hastings spent a helluva lot of money to stop the ejecta spin. That's what their barrels are known for. That's one of first things you learn in Engineering, maybe you missed it. Ned S
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Re: 7/8 oz B's 1824 fps

Postby mudpack » Sat Sep 14, 2013 7:33 am

Hastings had some savvy people in it. Not engineering savvy, marketing savvy. They fabricated a "problem" that was very difficult to prove DID NOT exist (back then, at least), then came up with a "solution". It all sounds logical on the surface, like so many other gimmicks......BlindSide, Black Cloud, Hypersonic, wad-stripping chokes, rifled chokes, and others come to mind.....but it can't hold water.

Just because someone wants to sell you a solution to your problem doesn't mean you actually have the problem.
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Re: 7/8 oz B's 1824 fps

Postby lostknife4 » Sat Sep 14, 2013 7:56 am

LOL Elmer Fudd!!!!! Haven't heard that name in a long time.....

I have a Hastings barrel and it does in fact pattern more consistently and better patterns than my light weight BPS Browning Barrel but I attribute it's performance to the weight of the barrel not the straight rifling. I feel the balance is better for me too.

Hastings spent a helluva lot of money to stop and to induce spinning the ejecta spin. That's what their barrels are known for. That's one of first things you learn in Engineering, maybe you missed it. I do know that you missed the part about Newton's Laws, at least the comprehension thereof. Ned S How do you know this is fact, they are famous for their Rifled barrels and to carry on that reputation and give the marketing boys some new juice they market the straight rifling as Mudpack has asserted and is also the opinion of a lot of others.

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Re: 7/8 oz B's 1824 fps

Postby Frank Lopez » Sat Sep 14, 2013 8:33 am

Jon Bergren wrote:Killing geese with 35 pellets is your Idea. Pay attention just once and comprehend. The choke I use puts 68 pellets in the circle so you are actually putting 9+ pellets in the geese at 40 yds. Also the majority of first shots are taken at 20 yds in the decoys. Think of the number of pellets hitting the goose at 20 and 30 yds about 10. 7. 35 pellets in the circle is at 50 yds. Now I have made it as simple as I can. Oh, I forgot you probablly can't understand this simple explanation as you couldnn't figure out why the shotshell ejecta may spin and sometimes does. Ned S


Killing geese with 35 pellets is definitely NOT my idea. YOU posted it in the third post in this thread (as well as in several other threads in the past). In fact, here's what YOU said!
Jon Bergren wrote:A 8 lb Lesser takes 35 fairly evenly distributed pellets the 30" pattern circle to put 5 pellets in the Lesser. A 12 pounder requires 23 pellets to 5 pellets in it. The bigger the goose the less pellets. Those B's at 1765 fps will penetrate to kill to 66.5 yds. If I would put a Terror choke on this load I probably could kill to 60 yds. Ned S


And if your first shot is in the decoys at 20 yards, chances are pretty good that your going to hit the goose with a lot more than 10 pellets (if you center the bird), because the pattern is about the size of a volleyball at that point! That load, while effective at 40 yards (I've admitted as such several times in this thread), is a handicap at 20 to 30 yards because it is over choked at that range. This is a classic case where more payload, less velocity and less choke could produce better results over a longer range of shots. And as far as ejecta spinning, I agree, it MAY spin, for various reasons. However, it is not so much of an issue that you tend to think it is. In fact, if you go back about a hundred years or so, you'd see where the British developed shotguns with rifling to induce the ejecta to spin and widen patterns!



Jon Bergren wrote:Then why many of the geese I picked were killed dead and had only 5 pellets in them. I pick alot of geese in my day. I remember one Speck that lit dead at my feet had 4 BB's clear thru it because I shot it overhead, One pellet in each shoulder and one on each sideof the gut toward the rear. Non were in the head or neck because I examined it thoroughly. Again these findings are just as valid as anyone elses observations. Ned S


Without examining the bird myself, I'd say that your "examination" was incomplete. If I'm understanding this correctly, you are implying that of the four pellets that struck the bird, none struck a vital organ. What is obvious is that the pellets disrupted the function of a vital organ, namely the backbone. Did you examine the backbone and spinal chord?

Frank
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Re: 7/8 oz B's 1824 fps

Postby lostknife4 » Sat Sep 14, 2013 10:31 am

Red Skelton said, you know when you are getting old when three things happen: first you lose your short term memory, and then he said he couldn't remember the other two!
Just thought that was appropriate here at this time.......................
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Re: 7/8 oz B's 1824 fps

Postby orphanedcowboy » Sat Sep 14, 2013 1:48 pm

lostknife4 wrote:Red Skelton said, you know when you are getting old when three things happen: first you lose your short term memory, and then he said he couldn't remember the other two!
Just thought that was appropriate here at this time.......................
Lost


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Re: 7/8 oz B's 1824 fps

Postby lostknife4 » Sat Sep 14, 2013 6:49 pm

Subject: 7/8 oz B's 1824 fps

lostknife4 wrote:Red Skelton said, you know when you are getting old when three things happen: first you lose your short term memory, and then he said he couldn't remember the other two!
Just thought that was appropriate here at this time.......................
Lost



"You have liabled yourself. It is unlawful in the United States to imply anyone has dimentia on the computer forums. Better talk to your Lawyer. A friend just collected a healthy amount from a forum lawsuit. Ned S"


Just read this IM from Ned, not sure if this is a threat or a promise........ Now why would he think that my comment was directed at him?
Maybe he is catching up to Franks post, back up three or four posts from here where Frank reminded him: "Killing geese with 35 pellets is definitely NOT my idea. YOU posted it in the third post in this thread (as well as in several other threads in the past). In fact, here's what YOU said!" Oh there are lots of for instances of this, maybe we have a class action suit going here but in reverse.
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Re: 7/8 oz B's 1824 fps

Postby lostknife4 » Sat Sep 14, 2013 7:25 pm

orphanedcowboy wrote:
lostknife4 wrote:Red Skelton said, you know when you are getting old when three things happen: first you lose your short term memory, and then he said he couldn't remember the other two!
Just thought that was appropriate here at this time.......................
Lost


There is the quote about not arguing with an idiot, people watching might not be able to discern which one is the idiot


That's a good one, here are a couple more:
"I refuse to waste my common sense on those who have been educated beyond their intelligence"

DONT ARGUE WITH STUPIDITY...THEY WILL JUST DRAG YOU DOWN TO THEIR LEVEL, AND BEAT YOU WITH EXPERIENCE.....

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Re: 7/8 oz B's 1824 fps

Postby hamernhonkers » Sat Sep 14, 2013 9:30 pm

I just want to know if at some point someone will put their money where their mouth is and post pics of this and some of the other loads like it using the same gun and choke, and shooting patterns from 20 to 60 yards in 5 or 10 yard increments.

I really want to see just what they look like! I bet no one is brave enough and honest enough to do it
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Re: 7/8 oz B's 1824 fps

Postby goosepit2007 » Sat Sep 14, 2013 10:38 pm

i already posted 40 , 50 yard patterns with mp153 factory full that actually measures improved mod(extended choke). then i posted 60 yard pattern with my go to gun/choke for the fast bigger steel shot sizes. there is no need for closer patterns they are tight, you have to make sure your on there necks/head other wise with that speed/shot size they are shreaded ready for burger patties. here they are again so you can see them!!!
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Re: 7/8 oz B's 1824 fps

Postby hamernhonkers » Sat Sep 14, 2013 11:16 pm

I remember your patterns but I still want to see this load from 20 to 60 yards with one gun and one choke.


Anyone out there willing to post them up???


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Re: 7/8 oz B's 1824 fps

Postby mudpack » Sun Sep 15, 2013 6:39 am

Frank Lopez wrote:
Jon Bergren wrote: I remember one Speck that lit dead at my feet had 4 BB's clear thru it because I shot it overhead, One pellet in each shoulder and one on each sideof the gut toward the rear. Non were in the head or neck because I examined it thoroughly. Again these findings are just as valid as anyone elses observations. Ned S


Without examining the bird myself, I'd say that your "examination" was incomplete. If I'm understanding this correctly, you are implying that of the four pellets that struck the bird, none struck a vital organ. What is obvious is that the pellets disrupted the function of a vital organ, namely the backbone. Did you examine the backbone and spinal chord?Frank



I have another theory; the goose was brought down because of two broken wings. The goose was killed by hitting the ground after a 55 yard fall.

If ol' ned had shot that goose over water, he'd still be searching for it.
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Re: 7/8 oz B's 1824 fps

Postby orphanedcowboy » Sun Sep 15, 2013 8:03 am

mudpack wrote:
Frank Lopez wrote:
Jon Bergren wrote: I remember one Speck that lit dead at my feet had 4 BB's clear thru it because I shot it overhead, One pellet in each shoulder and one on each sideof the gut toward the rear. Non were in the head or neck because I examined it thoroughly. Again these findings are just as valid as anyone elses observations. Ned S


Without examining the bird myself, I'd say that your "examination" was incomplete. If I'm understanding this correctly, you are implying that of the four pellets that struck the bird, none struck a vital organ. What is obvious is that the pellets disrupted the function of a vital organ, namely the backbone. Did you examine the backbone and spinal chord?Frank



I have another theory; the goose was brought down because of two broken wings. The goose was killed by hitting the ground after a 55 yard fall.

If ol' ned had shot that goose over water, he'd still be searching for it.


The fall didn't kill him, it was the abrupt stop? Who'd have thought.

I have witnessed and even photographed a duck falling that was very alive, but dead when I reached over and picked him up. He literally landed a couple of feet from me. I will look for the pictures.

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Re: 7/8 oz B's 1824 fps

Postby orphanedcowboy » Sun Sep 15, 2013 8:06 am

Lost, I see you're on the nasty gram list too, Ned can now afford the high speed camera and someone to use it and post pictures, I still haven't figured out which one of us is going to pay for it. Texas recently changed the laws here regarding lawsuits.

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Re: 7/8 oz B's 1824 fps

Postby orphanedcowboy » Sun Sep 15, 2013 8:24 am

Mudpack, here are those pictures.

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Re: 7/8 oz B's 1824 fps

Postby dakotashooter2 » Sun Sep 15, 2013 8:21 pm

Are spoonies EVER really alive????????????????????????????????????????????????? :umm:
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Re: 7/8 oz B's 1824 fps

Postby Elvis Kiwi » Mon Sep 16, 2013 3:43 am

dakotashooter2 wrote:Are spoonies EVER really alive????????????????????????????????????????????????? :umm:

not for long when they swoop over our decoys they arent :thumbsup:
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Re: 7/8 oz B's 1824 fps

Postby BT Justice » Mon Sep 16, 2013 4:17 am

Nice pictures on the Hollywood falling from the sky... :lol3:

I will say I've shot a few of Ned's super fast loads and they do work in many instances, so I'm not knocking his claims.
My big problem is in testing super fast loads, from what we have seen most wads tend to start melting at speeds above 1730-1750 fps depending on the wad. I had my BRO in law look at a few of the wads, he's a chemical engineer, and his thoughts were the same as mine friction from that high a speed load going down the barrel caused it. That's why I won't use anything over 1700 fps.
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Re: 7/8 oz B's 1824 fps

Postby lostknife4 » Mon Sep 16, 2013 7:35 am

I too use one of Ned's, actually it was a load developed by Double dutch chuck which was developed using the earlier batches of ASTEEL powder and has since been recalled to avoid any problems with the new ASTEEL lots!!!!!!!!!!!! I was led to believe that this was Ned's recipe but when the crap hit the fan about over pressures with the newer lots of ASTEEL then Chuck posted his recall. The original loading with the early batch of ASTEEL worked great for me but I limited my range to 35 yards, our pond is only 40 yards wide and I like to have the dead or wounded birds in the water.
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Re: 7/8 oz B's 1824 fps

Postby solway gunner » Mon Sep 16, 2013 1:58 pm

give me crippled duck out the water any day ,saves on dogwork .
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Re: 7/8 oz B's 1824 fps

Postby BT Justice » Tue Sep 17, 2013 2:30 am

lostknife4 wrote:I too use one of Ned's, actually it was a load developed by Double dutch chuck which was developed using the earlier batches of ASTEEL powder and has since been recalled to avoid any problems with the new ASTEEL lots!!!!!!!!!!!! I was led to believe that this was Ned's recipe but when the crap hit the fan about over pressures with the newer lots of ASTEEL then Chuck posted his recall. The original loading with the early batch of ASTEEL worked great for me but I limited my range to 35 yards, our pond is only 40 yards wide and I like to have the dead or wounded birds in the water.
Lost

I don't actually use the loads I just tried them to see if the claims being made were true, they did a nice job on snow geese for me so I can agree they work, instead of claim they don't without ever having tried them. I'll never give up the big 10 for geese till I'm to old and frail to pick one up anymore... :lol3: .
The bad thing about some of these 2 3/4" 12 ga loads, especially if your using AA or STS type target hulls is they build pressure like mad with slight changes in anything (component wise), I can only imagine what hotter lots of STEEL will do to them. I don't use them simply because straight wall hull loads are much safer IMHO..but if they work for you then use them. Joe
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Re: 7/8 oz B's 1824 fps

Postby Jon Bergren » Tue Sep 17, 2013 9:42 am

BT Justice wrote:Nice pictures on the Hollywood falling from the sky... :lol3:

I will say I've shot a few of Ned's super fast loads and they do work in many instances, so I'm not knocking his claims.
My big problem is in testing super fast loads, from what we have seen most wads tend to start melting at speeds above 1730-1750 fps depending on the wad. I had my BRO in law look at a few of the wads, he's a chemical engineer, and his thoughts were the same as mine friction from that high a speed load going down the barrel caused it. That's why I won't use anything over 1700 fps.


I've never had a plastic residue left in my barrels or chokes from the shotcups I use for loads over 1700 fps. Most of the fast loads run over 1800 fps in my 935. I use alot of B & P and VP shotcups for these fast loads as well as MM and NTC. Ned S
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Re: 7/8 oz B's 1824 fps

Postby mudpack » Tue Sep 17, 2013 12:22 pm

orphanedcowboy wrote:Lost, I see you're on the nasty gram list too,


That makes three of us, so far. I wonder who else on here he has threatened with a lawsuit?

Orphaned', that smiley looks to me like it's pretty much deceased before it hit the ground. :huh:
Great pictures! I appreciate 'em.
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