Choice for long range finishing load

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Re: Choice for long range finishing load

Postby goose_gunner » Wed Sep 18, 2013 9:39 pm

UmatillaJeff wrote:Shooting a cripple at 70 yards on the water with ANY load sounds like a trap shoot! I can assure you I have seen more then a box of shells fired at a 70 yard goose with the result being nothing.

Then we start lining up with the big pellets and sooner or later we get it done but it is seldom pretty! 50 yards with what amounts to a rifle sighted shotgun on a turkey is one thing...

Shooting 70 yards with what amounts to a bead and shooting off hand is another. Then you add bitter cold temperature as well as wind and waves and that is why it sounds like a trap shoot is being conducted out of the duck blind!

Hear is why the big pellets are MORE effective.. Number 1- If you do hit the bird in the body, they still have the energy to kill the goose at 70 yards on the water by body killing them. This is an excellent option when crap house luck is all you have left. Those big pellets will f&%$ them up on the water.

Steel 7's? This just shows who has been there and who lives on fantasy island. Those pellets would be lucky to be going 300 FPS by the time they got to 70 yards.

In short... Nothing works without some luck and launching what usually amounts to a whole bunch of shells.

The big pellets are he best option short of lost Knifes depleted uranium. Jeff


ok 1st off I have tried to finish on the water and time and time again with boxes and boxes and boxes of shells and found that with the wind and waves you most of the time can never get a body shot and with big shot most of the time you have holes in your pattern so it was just an idea to try to get that one pellet to do the job but its all just hit or miss
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Re: Choice for long range finishing load

Postby Elvis Kiwi » Thu Sep 19, 2013 1:42 am

we let my son finish them off with .410 lead load of #6/7/8 mixture...but those are under 40yrds. if its further I go get the boat and get him closer...he out shoots anyone else Ive had in the boat for swatting wounded birds and doesnt often need a 2nd go to finish them.I use my .12ga and whatever is in it usually #3 but get in close first. I know where you are coming from chasing a diving duck,I once chased a mallard clean across lake in my old punt/canoe and never got close enough to fire a finisher. he dived before the shore and wasnt seen again leaving me to paddle back empty handed...no troubles now we have boat with wee out board, and faster canoes.
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Re: Choice for long range finishing load

Postby bbs383ci » Thu Sep 19, 2013 5:15 am

Elvis Kiwi wrote:we let my son finish them off with .410 lead load of #6/7/8 mixture...but those are under 40yrds. if its further I go get the boat and get him closer...he out shoots anyone else Ive had in the boat for swatting wounded birds and doesnt often need a 2nd go to finish them.I use my .12ga and whatever is in it usually #3 but get in close first. I know where you are coming from chasing a diving duck,I once chased a mallard clean across lake in my old punt/canoe and never got close enough to fire a finisher. he dived before the shore and wasnt seen again leaving me to paddle back empty handed...no troubles now we have boat with wee out board, and faster canoes.


yeah if we could use lead this topic never would have come up :thumbsup:
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Re: Choice for long range finishing load

Postby rainingmallards » Thu Sep 19, 2013 7:10 am

You need a larger shot size for shots like that. When I have to shoot long shots
I usually just don't shoot but something like hevimetal BB might be what you need
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Re: Choice for long range finishing load

Postby UmatillaJeff » Thu Sep 19, 2013 10:06 am

There isn't a good option.
I guess the point I am trying to make is that with no GOOD option, the only real option is big shot with the ability to either body kill the bird or slow it down.


I wish I could afford to shoot TSS but with the amount of shooting I do, it's just not an option.

One theory that is put forth REPEATADLY is that somehow with TSS you will fire fewer rounds.

That may well be the case with the far better then average wing shot. It's straight horseshit for the general public.

Back when we shot lead I had guys who could shoot two boxes of shells and not get a duck. The average guy could get about 1 for 3 over the decoys and that was using everything from lead 7 1/2's to lead #4 shot.

TSS is not magic and will not make a wing shot out of an average shooter. My contention is that the average shooter will gain very little shooting TSS except that when he does hit a bird, it will have a better chance of falling dead if shot in range.
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Re: Choice for long range finishing load

Postby Frank Lopez » Thu Sep 19, 2013 10:33 am

Sitting on the water a birds vitals are mostly well protected. In other words (for the most part) you can forget the traditional minimum penetration numbers. It's pretty likely you're not going to get into his boiler room with steel. The silver lining is that the head and neck are exposed and are the most vulnerable vitals. And they don't need a lot of penetration. Considering that you'd be using a 10ga, I'd go with the heaviest payload I could and still have about 1400 to 1450fps mv, use the tightest chokes, shoot #3s and hope for the best.

Frank
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Re: Choice for long range finishing load

Postby z51 » Thu Sep 19, 2013 10:52 am

Nickel plated #6 L's :thumbsup:
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Re: Choice for long range finishing load

Postby Jim Atlas » Thu Sep 19, 2013 1:28 pm

Coyotes.
it's the circle of life...
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Re: Choice for long range finishing load

Postby jehler » Thu Sep 19, 2013 2:52 pm

Frank Lopez wrote:Sitting on the water a birds vitals are mostly well protected. In other words (for the most part) you can forget the traditional minimum penetration numbers. It's pretty likely you're not going to get into his boiler room with steel. The silver lining is that the head and neck are exposed and are the most vulnerable vitals. And they don't need a lot of penetration. Considering that you'd be using a 10ga, I'd go with the heaviest payload I could and still have about 1400 to 1450fps mv, use the tightest chokes, shoot #3s and hope for the best.

Frank

marking this down in my journal, I agree with frank
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Re: Choice for long range finishing load

Postby jehler » Thu Sep 19, 2013 3:05 pm

about a 70 yard miss
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Re: Choice for long range finishing load

Postby solway gunner » Thu Sep 19, 2013 4:57 pm

..havent you heard of a marlin supergoose 10 jehler?.... :wink:
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Re: Choice for long range finishing load

Postby jehler » Thu Sep 19, 2013 5:58 pm

solway gunner wrote:..havent you heard of a marlin supergoose 10 jehler?.... :wink:

I have now! that would be a nice watterswatter, cheap to!
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Re: Choice for long range finishing load

Postby Elvis Kiwi » Fri Sep 20, 2013 3:20 am

bbs383ci wrote:
Elvis Kiwi wrote:we let my son finish them off with .410 lead load of #6/7/8 mixture...but those are under 40yrds. if its further I go get the boat and get him closer...he out shoots anyone else Ive had in the boat for swatting wounded birds and doesnt often need a 2nd go to finish them.I use my .12ga and whatever is in it usually #3 but get in close first. I know where you are coming from chasing a diving duck,I once chased a mallard clean across lake in my old punt/canoe and never got close enough to fire a finisher. he dived before the shore and wasnt seen again leaving me to paddle back empty handed...no troubles now we have boat with wee out board, and faster canoes.


yeah if we could use lead this topic never would have come up :thumbsup:

I have to disagree, we wound no more now than we did back using lead, and since we stepped up speed of shells to above 1400fps we kill wounded ones just as well as back then too. the wee gun just shoots a nice tight pattern, and Id rather let the lad shoot, I can finish them just as well with mod choke and steel #2-3 from the .12ga, in fact its why I bought a pump and sold my SxS that did me so well...just to be able to keep shooting at wounded birds quicker till they copped a pellet in the noggin and stopped swimming away.
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Re: Choice for long range finishing load

Postby hawglips » Fri Sep 20, 2013 3:49 am

Last year when testing a load of #3 steel x #9 TSS (7/8 oz steel x 1/4 oz TSS) against fast #2 steel on diver ducks, cripples went down significantly, and no more chasing them down with the boat was necessary.
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Re: Choice for long range finishing load

Postby BT Justice » Fri Sep 20, 2013 5:05 am

jehler wrote:
Frank Lopez wrote:Sitting on the water a birds vitals are mostly well protected. In other words (for the most part) you can forget the traditional minimum penetration numbers. It's pretty likely you're not going to get into his boiler room with steel. The silver lining is that the head and neck are exposed and are the most vulnerable vitals. And they don't need a lot of penetration. Considering that you'd be using a 10ga, I'd go with the heaviest payload I could and still have about 1400 to 1450fps mv, use the tightest chokes, shoot #3s and hope for the best.

Frank

marking this down in my journal, I agree with frank

LOL.... I agree with both of you..
The way I look at it is I or someone I am hunting with shot the bird and crippled it, I could take out the 10 ga and take long range potshots at the bird hoping to do the deed.
It doesn't take that long for anyone to close the gap in low flooded rice or corn on foot, or for that matter to get in the boat and do the same thing. We always set up the boat to have an easy exit/entrance through our spread...takes maybe 5-10 minutes from start to finish. Call it old school or whatever...
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Re: Choice for long range finishing load

Postby z51 » Fri Sep 20, 2013 5:15 am

I call it common sense.
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Re: Choice for long range finishing load

Postby jehler » Fri Sep 20, 2013 5:19 am

BT Justice wrote:
jehler wrote:
Frank Lopez wrote:Sitting on the water a birds vitals are mostly well protected. In other words (for the most part) you can forget the traditional minimum penetration numbers. It's pretty likely you're not going to get into his boiler room with steel. The silver lining is that the head and neck are exposed and are the most vulnerable vitals. And they don't need a lot of penetration. Considering that you'd be using a 10ga, I'd go with the heaviest payload I could and still have about 1400 to 1450fps mv, use the tightest chokes, shoot #3s and hope for the best.

Frank

marking this down in my journal, I agree with frank

LOL.... I agree with both of you..
The way I look at it is I or someone I am hunting with shot the bird and crippled it, I could take out the 10 ga and take long range potshots at the bird hoping to do the deed.
It doesn't take that long for anyone to close the gap in low flooded rice or corn on foot, or for that matter to get in the boat and do the same thing. We always set up the boat to have an easy exit/entrance through our spread...takes maybe 5-10 minutes from start to finish. Call it old school or whatever...

We hunt diving ducks in 12-100 feet of water, even with a boat chasing them down, you never know when green jeans is watching so you have to shut down, un-case and load up.... We take plenty of long shots at birds. I wish they would make some kind of exclusion for cripples up here in the regs
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Re: Choice for long range finishing load

Postby beretta24 » Fri Sep 20, 2013 5:38 am

jehler wrote:
BT Justice wrote:
jehler wrote:
Frank Lopez wrote:Sitting on the water a birds vitals are mostly well protected. In other words (for the most part) you can forget the traditional minimum penetration numbers. It's pretty likely you're not going to get into his boiler room with steel. The silver lining is that the head and neck are exposed and are the most vulnerable vitals. And they don't need a lot of penetration. Considering that you'd be using a 10ga, I'd go with the heaviest payload I could and still have about 1400 to 1450fps mv, use the tightest chokes, shoot #3s and hope for the best.

Frank

marking this down in my journal, I agree with frank

LOL.... I agree with both of you..
The way I look at it is I or someone I am hunting with shot the bird and crippled it, I could take out the 10 ga and take long range potshots at the bird hoping to do the deed.
It doesn't take that long for anyone to close the gap in low flooded rice or corn on foot, or for that matter to get in the boat and do the same thing. We always set up the boat to have an easy exit/entrance through our spread...takes maybe 5-10 minutes from start to finish. Call it old school or whatever...

We hunt diving ducks in 12-100 feet of water, even with a boat chasing them down, you never know when green jeans is watching so you have to shut down, un-case and load up.... We take plenty of long shots at birds. I wish they would make some kind of exclusion for cripples up here in the regs

They just did that in mn....still have to shut the motor off though.

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Re: Choice for long range finishing load

Postby goosepit2007 » Fri Sep 20, 2013 5:38 am

jehler wrote:
BT Justice wrote:
jehler wrote:
Frank Lopez wrote:Sitting on the water a birds vitals are mostly well protected. In other words (for the most part) you can forget the traditional minimum penetration numbers. It's pretty likely you're not going to get into his boiler room with steel. The silver lining is that the head and neck are exposed and are the most vulnerable vitals. And they don't need a lot of penetration. Considering that you'd be using a 10ga, I'd go with the heaviest payload I could and still have about 1400 to 1450fps mv, use the tightest chokes, shoot #3s and hope for the best.

Frank

marking this down in my journal, I agree with frank

LOL.... I agree with both of you..
The way I look at it is I or someone I am hunting with shot the bird and crippled it, I could take out the 10 ga and take long range potshots at the bird hoping to do the deed.
It doesn't take that long for anyone to close the gap in low flooded rice or corn on foot, or for that matter to get in the boat and do the same thing. We always set up the boat to have an easy exit/entrance through our spread...takes maybe 5-10 minutes from start to finish. Call it old school or whatever...

We hunt diving ducks in 12-100 feet of water, even with a boat chasing them down, you never know when green jeans is watching so you have to shut down, un-case and load up.... We take plenty of long shots at birds. I wish they would make some kind of exclusion for cripples up here in the regs



that would be a pain in the rear end uncasing ect were we hunt there is no gun case law...all we have to do is have motor shot off before a guy fires a shot....but i see people with person in front going full speed and they shoot at bird if it still keeps getting up(flying).
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Re: Choice for long range finishing load

Postby z51 » Fri Sep 20, 2013 5:55 am

That's a dumb law. The Feds will fine you for not making a reasonable effort to recover a wounded bird.
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Re: Choice for long range finishing load

Postby jehler » Fri Sep 20, 2013 6:19 am

z51 wrote:That's a dumb law. The Feds will fine you for not making a reasonable effort to recover a wounded bird.

But the process of making a reasonable effort to retrieve a bird is illegal :)
Gotta love government, they invented catch 22's and continue to home there skills, state run healthcare will be interesting huh?
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Re: Choice for long range finishing load

Postby jehler » Fri Sep 20, 2013 6:23 am

hawglips wrote:Last year when testing a load of #3 steel x #9 TSS (7/8 oz steel x 1/4 oz TSS) against fast #2 steel on diver ducks, cripples went down significantly, and no more chasing them down with the boat was necessary.

Maybe a stupid question but is the function of the steel in the duplex load mainly a filler or does it help spread out the pattern? I'm guessing its more than just economy?
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Re: Choice for long range finishing load

Postby bbs383ci » Fri Sep 20, 2013 8:29 am

Elvis Kiwi wrote:
bbs383ci wrote:
Elvis Kiwi wrote:we let my son finish them off with .410 lead load of #6/7/8 mixture...but those are under 40yrds. if its further I go get the boat and get him closer...he out shoots anyone else Ive had in the boat for swatting wounded birds and doesnt often need a 2nd go to finish them.I use my .12ga and whatever is in it usually #3 but get in close first. I know where you are coming from chasing a diving duck,I once chased a mallard clean across lake in my old punt/canoe and never got close enough to fire a finisher. he dived before the shore and wasnt seen again leaving me to paddle back empty handed...no troubles now we have boat with wee out board, and faster canoes.


yeah if we could use lead this topic never would have come up :thumbsup:

I have to disagree, we wound no more now than we did back using lead, and since we stepped up speed of shells to above 1400fps we kill wounded ones just as well as back then too. the wee gun just shoots a nice tight pattern, and Id rather let the lad shoot, I can finish them just as well with mod choke and steel #2-3 from the .12ga, in fact its why I bought a pump and sold my SxS that did me so well...just to be able to keep shooting at wounded birds quicker till they copped a pellet in the noggin and stopped swimming away.



So a lead load of at least 1 5/8oz or bigger of 4's or 5's wouldn't be a great swatter load especially since the killing distance of lead for smaller pellets it greater than steel and your pattern density would be considerably more. I really don't see what's to disagree with about that we aren't talking about knocking them out of the air better we are talking about a better swatting load once they are down and yes at normal ranges with today's steel loads, in my opinion you can't tell a diffèrence between lead and steel, but if we could bring lead with us for a swatter load then a heavy payload of small pellets you be ideal.
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Re: Choice for long range finishing load

Postby z51 » Fri Sep 20, 2013 8:56 am

jehler wrote:
z51 wrote:That's a dumb law. The Feds will fine you for not making a reasonable effort to recover a wounded bird.

But the process of making a reasonable effort to retrieve a bird is illegal :)
Gotta love government, they invented catch 22's and continue to home there skills, state run healthcare will be interesting huh?


To make matters worse they get to decide what is "reasonable". :help:
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Re: Choice for long range finishing load

Postby Jon Bergren » Fri Sep 20, 2013 9:39 am

jehler wrote:I've killed plenty of birds in pre flight position (on the water) at 70-80 yards with 3's


Must be using TSS then or equivalent as steel 3's at 1730 fps will only penetrate to kill to 54.3 yds. Ned S
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