Choice for long range finishing load

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Re: Choice for long range finishing load

Postby lostknife4 » Fri Sep 20, 2013 11:28 am

Unless you are lucky enough to hit them in the head or neck
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Re: Choice for long range finishing load

Postby jehler » Fri Sep 20, 2013 11:50 am

Jon Bergren wrote:
jehler wrote:I've killed plenty of birds in pre flight position (on the water) at 70-80 yards with 3's


Must be using TSS then or equivalent as steel 3's at 1730 fps will only penetrate to kill to 54.3 yds. Ned S

Evidently the ducks didn't get the memo
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Re: Choice for long range finishing load

Postby Elvis Kiwi » Fri Sep 20, 2013 1:19 pm

bbs383ci wrote:
Elvis Kiwi wrote:
bbs383ci wrote:
Elvis Kiwi wrote:we let my son finish them off with .410 lead load of #6/7/8 mixture...but those are under 40yrds. if its further I go get the boat and get him closer...he out shoots anyone else Ive had in the boat for swatting wounded birds and doesnt often need a 2nd go to finish them.I use my .12ga and whatever is in it usually #3 but get in close first. I know where you are coming from chasing a diving duck,I once chased a mallard clean across lake in my old punt/canoe and never got close enough to fire a finisher. he dived before the shore and wasnt seen again leaving me to paddle back empty handed...no troubles now we have boat with wee out board, and faster canoes.


yeah if we could use lead this topic never would have come up :thumbsup:

I have to disagree, we wound no more now than we did back using lead, and since we stepped up speed of shells to above 1400fps we kill wounded ones just as well as back then too. the wee gun just shoots a nice tight pattern, and Id rather let the lad shoot, I can finish them just as well with mod choke and steel #2-3 from the .12ga, in fact its why I bought a pump and sold my SxS that did me so well...just to be able to keep shooting at wounded birds quicker till they copped a pellet in the noggin and stopped swimming away.



So a lead load of at least 1 5/8oz or bigger of 4's or 5's wouldn't be a great swatter load especially since the killing distance of lead for smaller pellets it greater than steel and your pattern density would be considerably more. I really don't see what's to disagree with about that we aren't talking about knocking them out of the air better we are talking about a better swatting load once they are down and yes at normal ranges with today's steel loads, in my opinion you can't tell a diffèrence between lead and steel, but if we could bring lead with us for a swatter load then a heavy payload of small pellets you be ideal.

yeah ok I see where you coming from now :oops: my bad :oops: we would use a trap load of #9 to finish off back in the day.
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Re: Choice for long range finishing load

Postby Elvis Kiwi » Fri Sep 20, 2013 1:26 pm

jehler wrote:
BT Justice wrote:
jehler wrote:
Frank Lopez wrote:Sitting on the water a birds vitals are mostly well protected. In other words (for the most part) you can forget the traditional minimum penetration numbers. It's pretty likely you're not going to get into his boiler room with steel. The silver lining is that the head and neck are exposed and are the most vulnerable vitals. And they don't need a lot of penetration. Considering that you'd be using a 10ga, I'd go with the heaviest payload I could and still have about 1400 to 1450fps mv, use the tightest chokes, shoot #3s and hope for the best.

Frank

marking this down in my journal, I agree with frank

LOL.... I agree with both of you..
The way I look at it is I or someone I am hunting with shot the bird and crippled it, I could take out the 10 ga and take long range potshots at the bird hoping to do the deed.
It doesn't take that long for anyone to close the gap in low flooded rice or corn on foot, or for that matter to get in the boat and do the same thing. We always set up the boat to have an easy exit/entrance through our spread...takes maybe 5-10 minutes from start to finish. Call it old school or whatever...

We hunt diving ducks in 12-100 feet of water, even with a boat chasing them down, you never know when green jeans is watching so you have to shut down, un-case and load up.... We take plenty of long shots at birds. I wish they would make some kind of exclusion for cripples up here in the regs

we arent allowed to shoot from an unmoored boat opening weekend...and being a badgetoter I have to be seen to be doing things 130% correct so here is what WE do.
when we out chasing cripples we approach in the boat and let them dive....approach again and let them dive a second time.... approach a third time and boomshaggalagga :hammer:
that way anyone watching can see that bird is wounded and was given the chance to fly away if it could.
Im big enough and ugly enough to argue that case in court if someone wants to call me on it. my suggestion to you is film what you are doing so you can proove you are doing it right.
swing that senario past your local F&G and see what they think???
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Re: Choice for long range finishing load

Postby hawglips » Fri Sep 20, 2013 1:29 pm

jehler wrote:
hawglips wrote:Last year when testing a load of #3 steel x #9 TSS (7/8 oz steel x 1/4 oz TSS) against fast #2 steel on diver ducks, cripples went down significantly, and no more chasing them down with the boat was necessary.

Maybe a stupid question but is the function of the steel in the duplex load mainly a filler or does it help spread out the pattern? I'm guessing its more than just economy?


Yes. It forms the primary margins of the patterns for close ranges, while the TSS stays in the core for long range.
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Re: Choice for long range finishing load

Postby jehler » Fri Sep 20, 2013 2:22 pm

hawglips wrote:
jehler wrote:
hawglips wrote:Last year when testing a load of #3 steel x #9 TSS (7/8 oz steel x 1/4 oz TSS) against fast #2 steel on diver ducks, cripples went down significantly, and no more chasing them down with the boat was necessary.

Maybe a stupid question but is the function of the steel in the duplex load mainly a filler or does it help spread out the pattern? I'm guessing its more than just economy?


Yes. It forms the primary margins of the patterns for close ranges, while the TSS stays in the core for long range.

the tss goes under the steel?
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Re: Choice for long range finishing load

Postby solway gunner » Fri Sep 20, 2013 4:37 pm

here jehler, i found you this mint beauty,be sure and look after it.
Image
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Re: Choice for long range finishing load

Postby Jon Bergren » Fri Sep 20, 2013 5:11 pm

A, T. Griffin who hunts with the Hereford gang, keeps one loaded while hunting geese with us. He does some fantastic long shots. Ned S.
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Re: Choice for long range finishing load

Postby jehler » Fri Sep 20, 2013 5:51 pm

Elvis Kiwi wrote:we arent allowed to shoot from an unmoored boat opening weekend...and being a badgetoter I have to be seen to be doing things 130% correct so here is what WE do.
when we out chasing cripples we approach in the boat and let them dive....approach again and let them dive a second time.... approach a third time and boomshaggalagga :hammer:
that way anyone watching can see that bird is wounded and was given the chance to fly away if it could.
Im big enough and ugly enough to argue that case in court if someone wants to call me on it. my suggestion to you is film what you are doing so you can proove you are doing it right.
swing that senario past your local F&G and see what they think???

the local fish and game are reasonable people for the most part, its the damn feds that are the nazi's the ducks we have the most issue with is oldsquaw and scoter, the bastards can dive so deep and stay under so long, one dive and they may turn up 30yards away or 90, you never know. funny story, we are chasing a wounded diver, wind is blowing 20knots and we are a half mile off shore. the bird is hit but rather than folding goes into a glide and we watch him splash about 200 yards out. we run to where we saw him last in the tender, glass a bit and find him, we run up on him he dives and I uncase load up and wait, a simple game of pop a mole :smile: bird pops up and at about 3 pounds of trigger pull I realize its a loon :eek: little bastard pops up right after the loon and then dives again, we never did get that bird :no:
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Re: Choice for long range finishing load

Postby jehler » Fri Sep 20, 2013 5:52 pm

solway gunner wrote:here jehler, i found you this mint beauty,be sure and look after it.
Image

its almost a scale model of my old mossberg and son .410
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Re: Choice for long range finishing load

Postby mudpack » Fri Sep 20, 2013 6:14 pm

Jon Bergren wrote:
jehler wrote:I've killed plenty of birds in pre flight position (on the water) at 70-80 yards with 3's


Must be using TSS then or equivalent as steel 3's at 1730 fps will only penetrate to kill to 54.3 yds. Ned S


Once again, ned, your figures do not reflect reality. You don't need full penetration if you are making head shots. How thick is a goose head....an inch? Inch and a half?

See Frank's post for a clear explanation that you can understand.
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Re: Choice for long range finishing load

Postby mudpack » Fri Sep 20, 2013 6:15 pm

Elvis Kiwi wrote: we would use a trap load of #9 to finish off back in the day.

Those would be skeet loads, not trap loads. :biggrin:
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Re: Choice for long range finishing load

Postby lostknife4 » Fri Sep 20, 2013 6:25 pm

Unless it's #9 TSS that you are cheating with LOL
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Re: Choice for long range finishing load

Postby Elvis Kiwi » Fri Sep 20, 2013 11:26 pm

mudpack wrote:
Elvis Kiwi wrote: we would use a trap load of #9 to finish off back in the day.

Those would be skeet loads, not trap loads. :biggrin:

sorry :oops: just elcheepho small shot size from the store....trap/skeet whatever they were they worked ok. the high pellet count was the thing in thier favour.
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Re: Choice for long range finishing load

Postby BT Justice » Sat Sep 21, 2013 2:02 am

jehler wrote:
Elvis Kiwi wrote:we arent allowed to shoot from an unmoored boat opening weekend...and being a badgetoter I have to be seen to be doing things 130% correct so here is what WE do.
when we out chasing cripples we approach in the boat and let them dive....approach again and let them dive a second time.... approach a third time and boomshaggalagga :hammer:
that way anyone watching can see that bird is wounded and was given the chance to fly away if it could.
Im big enough and ugly enough to argue that case in court if someone wants to call me on it. my suggestion to you is film what you are doing so you can proove you are doing it right.
swing that senario past your local F&G and see what they think???

the local fish and game are reasonable people for the most part, its the damn feds that are the nazi's the ducks we have the most issue with is oldsquaw and scoter, the bastards can dive so deep and stay under so long, one dive and they may turn up 30yards away or 90, you never know. funny story, we are chasing a wounded diver, wind is blowing 20knots and we are a half mile off shore. the bird is hit but rather than folding goes into a glide and we watch him splash about 200 yards out. we run to where we saw him last in the tender, glass a bit and find him, we run up on him he dives and I uncase load up and wait, a simple game of pop a mole :smile: bird pops up and at about 3 pounds of trigger pull I realize its a loon :eek: little bastard pops up right after the loon and then dives again, we never did get that bird :no:

I go quite the education on divers while bay hunting in the Carolinas, and they are the pain as you stated. Quite honestly I found Buffies to be the most co operative, they about land in the boat for you... :lol3: .
After one outing for a relative newbie to salt water hunting, I decided to up our loads a bit to 1 3/8 oz 2's and 1's for both myself and my hunting partner. John used a 3.5" 12 SX2 and I was using my Gold 10 with the 1 3/8 oz loads, quite honestly he embarrassed me with my own reloads knocking the snot out of everything he shot at. I got few but didn't have the experience he did till I got a few more hunts under my belt.
Heavy loads at the right speed seem to be the ticket for divers, at least for us it was.
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Re: Choice for long range finishing load

Postby BT Justice » Sat Sep 21, 2013 2:10 am

mudpack wrote:
Jon Bergren wrote:
jehler wrote:I've killed plenty of birds in pre flight position (on the water) at 70-80 yards with 3's


Must be using TSS then or equivalent as steel 3's at 1730 fps will only penetrate to kill to 54.3 yds. Ned S


Once again, ned, your figures do not reflect reality. You don't need full penetration if you are making head shots. How thick is a goose head....an inch? Inch and a half?

See Frank's post for a clear explanation that you can understand.

Not to be the spoiler here, but what is the reality of what will really kill a goose. I've had a quite a few with head shots that still were kicking on me, shot one Canada at around 35 yards that had 8 BB holes (full pass through) in the head and neck and the bird still wanted to try and fly off on me. That one still sticks in my mind.
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Re: Choice for long range finishing load

Postby Elvis Kiwi » Sat Sep 21, 2013 4:31 am

well I guess a .50 BMG would be a definite killer if you managed to hit the vital region but might not be practical or legal :hammer: :hammer:
how much does it really need/or is it how much is 90% certain to kill it outright or bring it down solidly more to the point.
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Re: Choice for long range finishing load

Postby lostknife4 » Sat Sep 21, 2013 4:59 am

The answer to that question is very illusive and there are literally millions of answers. Or at least as many answers as DHC members LOL
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Re: Choice for long range finishing load

Postby hawglips » Sat Sep 21, 2013 5:25 am

jehler wrote:
hawglips wrote:
jehler wrote:
hawglips wrote:Last year when testing a load of #3 steel x #9 TSS (7/8 oz steel x 1/4 oz TSS) against fast #2 steel on diver ducks, cripples went down significantly, and no more chasing them down with the boat was necessary.

Maybe a stupid question but is the function of the steel in the duplex load mainly a filler or does it help spread out the pattern? I'm guessing its more than just economy?


Yes. It forms the primary margins of the patterns for close ranges, while the TSS stays in the core for long range.

the tss goes under the steel?


Yes.
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Re: Choice for long range finishing load

Postby z51 » Sat Sep 21, 2013 5:46 am

I go quite the education on divers while bay hunting in the Carolinas, and they are the pain as you stated. Quite honestly I found Buffies to be the most co operative, they about land in the boat for you... :lol3: .
After one outing for a relative newbie to salt water hunting, I decided to up our loads a bit to 1 3/8 oz 2's and 1's for both myself and my hunting partner. John used a 3.5" 12 SX2 and I was using my Gold 10 with the 1 3/8 oz loads, quite honestly he embarrassed me with my own reloads knocking the snot out of everything he shot at. I got few but didn't have the experience he did till I got a few more hunts under my belt.
Heavy loads at the right speed seem to be the ticket for divers, at least for us it was.[/quote]



Bufflehead with a 10 gauge WOW! Does a Buffle even count as a duck? :huh:
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Re: Choice for long range finishing load

Postby jehler » Sat Sep 21, 2013 5:53 am

Bufflehead? What's that
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Re: Choice for long range finishing load

Postby BT Justice » Sat Sep 21, 2013 6:38 am

z51 wrote:Heavy loads at the right speed seem to be the ticket for divers, at least for us it was.




Bufflehead with a 10 gauge WOW! Does a Buffle even count as a duck? :huh:[/quote]
Why not late season doves are also 10 ga material... :lol3:
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Re: Choice for long range finishing load

Postby eastcoastsoxfan » Sat Sep 21, 2013 6:39 am

Jehler,
What you shootin at those Buffies to make them bleed so much?
I shootem with 3s and they don't bleed like that

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Re: Choice for long range finishing load

Postby 10gaOkie » Sat Sep 21, 2013 7:19 am

Black Cloud makes ducks bleed like that. I love and use my bufflehead decoys often but I dont shoot buffies. Too many other quality ducks to make up a limit.

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Re: Choice for long range finishing load

Postby 3200 man » Sat Sep 21, 2013 8:21 am

Chris , I think Jehler got all those with (1) shot ? Maybe as they landed real close to that wonderful hide of his ? :lol3:
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