10 gauge: Heavy payload vs Speed

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10 gauge: Heavy payload vs Speed

Postby kcidkcus » Sat Sep 28, 2013 10:25 pm

Hey guys, I'm interested on your opinions about shells for the ten? Currently using Winchester super x shells with 1 3/4 oz of shot and they have performed well. But sadly they are no longer produced to my knowledge :sad: it has been a long time favorite so I'm looking for a replacement. The only current factory loads I have seen with 1 3/4 oz of steel are the Remington nitro steels. I'm currently shooting a bps 10 with a 28" barell with a patternmaster extended (which absolutely destroys my factory tubes in MY gun, my stock tubes are great out untill 40 yards). I was curious what your guys opinions or experience with Remington nitro steels are 1 3/4 oz at 1260fps? Does the 140-190 fps more of a 1400-1450 fps shell out of a Winchester or federal at 1.5 or 1 5/8 make a noticeable difference in Max killing range? In my case I shoot #2s at ducks out to max 50yards(my patternmaster holds killing patterns out to 60yards with #2s but I think the energy has ran out to consistently kill at 60 with #2s) when shooting geese I have been using bb, BBB, and T. BBB doesn't pattern as well as bb and T out of my set up. When using large steel shot does the MV difference of a 1260fps shell vs a 1400fps make a drastic difference in long range performance? What about #2 shot for ducks, does the 140-190fps MV make a drastic difference in long range performance of smaller shot? Some guys say shooting smaller shot out of a ten is silly but it seems to work well for me for ducks. What would you reccomend as your favorite duck or goose load for your ten? would really appreciate the input guys. :beer:
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Re: 10 gauge: Heavy payload vs Speed

Postby kcidkcus » Sat Sep 28, 2013 10:29 pm

And PS I'm really looking to squeeze all the long range potential I can out of my ten. So does one take a hit on pattern density for more speed or does one take a hit on speed but add pattern density? Hmmmm help me out here lol
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Re: 10 gauge: Heavy payload vs Speed

Postby sewergoon » Sat Sep 28, 2013 11:01 pm

I hated the remingtons out of my bps 10. Jammed all the time.
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Re: 10 gauge: Heavy payload vs Speed

Postby 10gaOkie » Sun Sep 29, 2013 1:37 am

Number 1s and Bs are the best pellets for the 10ga out to around 60 yards for a duck/goose combo load. However, you will have to take up handloading to get them. I started out with a BPS10 shooting Win factory 1 3/4oz #1s at 1260fps back around 1987 and they were great! I dont think you need the extra 1/4oz of shot using #1s though a 1 1/2oz load is adequate and probably best. The 1 5/8oz is the biggest payload I ever bother to reload. Vels are not as important when you use shot sizes bigger than #2s. Personally, I think using #2s in the 10ga are a waste of its abilities to handle big pellets. Number 1s are as small as I ever shoot. You can buy custom handload 10ga ammo from Sporting Ammo. They load #1s for sure and their prices will surprise you at being comparable to factory fodder prices. You are missing out on alot of the killing ability that the 10ga has by not reloading.

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Re: 10 gauge: Heavy payload vs Speed

Postby BT Justice » Sun Sep 29, 2013 3:48 am

To add a bit to what has been stated..Most factory 10 ga ammunition does not bring out the full potential of the 10, basically from what we have seen in testing most of it is loaded up to no more than 10,000 psi,,which IMO the factories do on purpose in case some dingbat try's to shoot their loads in Grandpas old 10 ga shooting iron, there are just as many older 10 ga guns out there as there newer ones.
The basic message Chris passed along is correct, unless you reload for the 10 ga you will never see it's full potential, modern guns can take a lot more pressure than older guns could. You can very easily make up loads for the 10 ga in the 1600 -1700 fps range and still not be in the red zone pressure wise for modern guns.
Factory ammo, about the best your gonna see is the Federal Speed shocks, the Sporting Ammo loads are supposed to be very good but I have never used them as I reload all of mine.
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Re: 10 gauge: Heavy payload vs Speed

Postby UK fowler » Sun Sep 29, 2013 5:02 am

I use the Nitro steel in Ts picked a slab up on offer and used them on the notion that thay would be poor because of the slow FPS how wrong I was. they were very hard hitting on the large race canadas that we have in the uk even going away birds were folded stone dead and they pattern great with little choke (briley LM ) made me rethink my reloading I no longer load for super high speed as my gold shoots best with 1 9/16 of shot in the mid speed range plus the nitro hulls are great to reload if you can find them that is :thumbsup:
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Re: 10 gauge: Heavy payload vs Speed

Postby mudpack » Sun Sep 29, 2013 7:03 am

The advantage of the 10 is increased payload over the smaller gauges. You can get high muzzle velocity in the 12. Why give up the increased payload of the 10 for something (high MV) you can get in the 12?
The max range of a shotgun is determined by pattern density; when you run out of adequate pellets in the pattern, you've reached the max range of that load/choke combination. Individual pellet velocity does not determine max range, a 10 ga. load will run out of pattern density before it runs out of killing velocity...this is true even with the "slow" loads. :thumbsup:

To many experienced gunners...like Tom Roster.... payload wins over MV every time.
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Re: 10 gauge: Heavy payload vs Speed

Postby BBK » Sun Sep 29, 2013 9:12 am

The very little I shot the 10ga it was with heavy payloads of #BBB and #T for geese, with that size shot the more pellets on target the better. Of course I didnt use the 10ga for skybusting like some do, so my shots were typically 30-40 yards on overhead flying geese.. but the gun also was used for those sailing mallards/geese that came our way when hunting public areas. 1 3/4 of #BBB can put a hurting on a 60 yard sailing mallard.

A guy I hunt with shoots the 10ga for everything. He uses 1 3/8 #2 for ducks and 1 5/8 #BBB for geese. Too expensive for me ($29 a box here) but whatever works! Those 1 3/8 #2's sure did kill decoying mallards with authority!
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Re: 10 gauge: Heavy payload vs Speed

Postby TexasGeese » Sun Sep 29, 2013 12:54 pm

The answer to your question, in my opinion, comes down to the type of shot you are using. For long range steel, I want speed + payload. For tungsten, I would rather have payload. I've shot the slow 1 3/4 oz steel loads and they do their job on decoying birds. I wouldn't trust them with 60+yd shots routinely though. I would rather have a 1 1/2 oz load going 1600fps. It's too bad not many companies are marketing the 1 1/2 load at 1600fps for the 10ga except sporting ammo. You can find it all day in 12ga 3 1/2.
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Re: 10 gauge: Heavy payload vs Speed

Postby BBK » Sun Sep 29, 2013 1:02 pm

TexasGeese wrote:The answer to your question, in my opinion, comes down to the type of shot you are using. For long range steel, I want speed + payload. For tungsten, I would rather have payload. I've shot the slow 1 3/4 oz steel loads and they do their job on decoying birds. I wouldn't trust them with 60+yd shots routinely though. I would rather have a 1 1/2 oz load going 1600fps. It's too bad not many companies are marketing the 1 1/2 load at 1600fps for the 10ga except sporting ammo. You can find it all day in 12ga 3 1/2.


3.5" 12 ga 1.5 is typically 1500. Who makes it in 1600? I'd be real interested in that load!
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Re: 10 gauge: Heavy payload vs Speed

Postby goose_gunner » Sun Sep 29, 2013 2:54 pm

for starters I shoot a gold 10 with a pm in it and have shot the 1 3/4oz of rem 2s they are great on ducks VARY VARY lacking on geese at long range I just started loading for the 10ga this year but my best load I have found in the 10ga with a pm choke is the estate 1 5/8oz of bbb don't even mess with ts or fs if you can help it just pattern and make up your own mind
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Re: 10 gauge: Heavy payload vs Speed

Postby solway gunner » Sun Sep 29, 2013 3:12 pm

[quote="BBK"]

3.5" 12 ga 1.5 is typically 1500

Thats a typo ,typicaly 1350fps, uncomfortably at 1420fps (fed bc) and unachievable through handloading.,theres not many manufacturers load 11/2oz,so its hardly typical.,typical for a steel 3.5" factory round is 13/8oz.

Who makes it in 1600? I'd be real interested in that load!

For a 12ga? seriously you wouldnt if you fired such a load.
optimum pass shooting velocitys for the big pellets in a 10ga mag need only achieve 14-1500fps maximum,which they can do without trying.,as a few above,handloading yields best results.
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Re: 10 gauge: Heavy payload vs Speed

Postby BBK » Sun Sep 29, 2013 3:24 pm

Why not, cant be much more than a 1 1/2 1500 which is very common. I'm a big boy, I can take it.
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Re: 10 gauge: Heavy payload vs Speed

Postby TexasGeese » Sun Sep 29, 2013 6:54 pm

BBK wrote:
3.5" 12 ga 1.5 is typically 1500. Who makes it in 1600? I'd be real interested in that load!


You're right, my mistake. The 1 1/2oz load at 1600fps is the fastest moving, largest payload that is currently being offered for steel shot that I know about.
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Re: 10 gauge: Heavy payload vs Speed

Postby kcidkcus » Sun Sep 29, 2013 7:11 pm

Thanks for the input guys! Much appreciated! I will have to try out both and see what happens out of my set up first at the patterning board then in the field
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Re: 10 gauge: Heavy payload vs Speed

Postby kcidkcus » Mon Sep 30, 2013 12:24 am

goose_gunner wrote:for starters I shoot a gold 10 with a pm in it and have shot the 1 3/4oz of rem 2s they are great on ducks VARY VARY lacking on geese at long range I just started loading for the 10ga this year but my best load I have found in the 10ga with a pm choke is the estate 1 5/8oz of bbb don't even mess with ts or fs if you can help it just pattern and make up your own mind

I might give the 2s a try at ducks but i would be shooting larger shot with the remingtons at geese prolly bb and T. For whatever reason my set up is terrible with BBB, bump up to T or down to bb and it puts Much more pellets on target and as well as WAY more even pattern.
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Re: 10 gauge: Heavy payload vs Speed

Postby solway gunner » Mon Sep 30, 2013 4:07 pm

BBK wrote:Why not, cant be much more than a 1 1/2 1500 which is very common. I'm a big boy, I can take it.


who loads genuine1500fps steel 12ga 11/2oz steel loads??ive chronod the federal black cloud@1420fps listed at 1500fps which were nauseating in sx3.
id like to chrono those alleged 1600fps 10ga rounds,unless theyve some special powder /components exclusive to them then id be just a little suspicious of the listed speed.
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Re: 10 gauge: Heavy payload vs Speed

Postby UmatillaJeff » Mon Sep 30, 2013 4:30 pm

As I have stated many times on these threads. Shooting small pellets in a 10ga magnum is just silly. There is nothing you can do with a 10ga with steel 2's that you can't do with a 12ga with steel 2's.

Why> because you run out of energy long before you run out of pattern.

The size pellets that make a 10ga the choice of serious water fowlers is BBB and T. TT's are no longer an option as I can't find any anywhere.

The 10ga gun is not for making 30 yard shots. It's for making 50 yard plus shots. To do this with big pellets you do not need excess velocity. At 1350 FPS a steel T is still going out a ducks back at 70 yards on a straight overhead shot.

Granted.... If ever a case could be made for excess velocity, it is with big pellets at distance. This is the only viable point of extreme muzzle velocity as with small pellets they do next to nothing at distance.

In my mind extreme velocity just gives people who can't shoot an idea that they are doing themselves some good.

Look at the charts... The amount of forward lead needed is just inches less with an 1700 fps load at 40 yards and most guys are missing by many feet. If I thought guys were missing by inches, I would endorse the idea but I have watched to much slow motion video to have any delusions that people miss by inches.

One in a hundred miss by inches, the rest miss by many feet. Up close the increased velocity does nothing as the lead on a bird hovering over the decoys or a slow swinger is negligible.

If you can't hit a 30 yard mallard with a standard velocity load then you have issues you need to be working on and they do not include you hand loads.

I would really encourage guys to shoot Starlings and pigeons in the off season. Shoot a few thousand Starlings and those ducks will start to look like freight cars at a crossing!Jeff
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Re: 10 gauge: Heavy payload vs Speed

Postby goose_gunner » Mon Sep 30, 2013 9:40 pm

kcidkcus wrote:
goose_gunner wrote:for starters I shoot a gold 10 with a pm in it and have shot the 1 3/4oz of rem 2s they are great on ducks VARY VARY lacking on geese at long range I just started loading for the 10ga this year but my best load I have found in the 10ga with a pm choke is the estate 1 5/8oz of bbb don't even mess with ts or fs if you can help it just pattern and make up your own mind

I might give the 2s a try at ducks but i would be shooting larger shot with the remingtons at geese prolly bb and T. For whatever reason my set up is terrible with BBB, bump up to T or down to bb and it puts Much more pellets on target and as well as WAY more even pattern.
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Re: 10 gauge: Heavy payload vs Speed

Postby goose_gunner » Mon Sep 30, 2013 9:50 pm

oops but any way I don't think you can get t shot from rem any more in the 13/4oz load I think you can only get 2s and bbs with my patternmaster i still cant find a t load i like i tried win fed and a lot of reloads bbb for me seems to as big as i can get to shoot well
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Re: 10 gauge: Heavy payload vs Speed

Postby kcidkcus » Mon Sep 30, 2013 10:05 pm

goose_gunner wrote:oops but any way I don't think you can get t shot from rem any more in the 13/4oz load I think you can only get 2s and bbs with my patternmaster i still cant find a t load i like i tried win fed and a lot of reloads bbb for me seems to as big as i can get to shoot well

BBB stinks out of my set up. I can actually put more Ts on target then BBB in actual pellet count. I see Remington Ts you just have to search online. Www. Ammoseek.com multiple companys are selling them. It's very hard to find them at your local store.
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Re: 10 gauge: Heavy payload vs Speed

Postby goose_gunner » Mon Sep 30, 2013 10:10 pm

sweet go for it if you could get the 11/2oz load from sporting ammo to pattern that would rock ts at 1600fps
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Re: 10 gauge: Heavy payload vs Speed

Postby kcidkcus » Mon Sep 30, 2013 10:29 pm

Whoa you may be right about Remington Ts O.o just scanne online. Since I looked last week they are GONE O.o
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Re: 10 gauge: Heavy payload vs Speed

Postby BT Justice » Tue Oct 01, 2013 1:44 am

solway gunner wrote:
BBK wrote:Why not, cant be much more than a 1 1/2 1500 which is very common. I'm a big boy, I can take it.


who loads genuine1500fps steel 12ga 11/2oz steel loads??ive chronod the federal black cloud@1420fps listed at 1500fps which were nauseating in sx3.
id like to chrono those alleged 1600fps 10ga rounds,unless theyve some special powder /components exclusive to them then id be just a little suspicious of the listed speed.

You don't have to chrono them , it's already been done and they don't average 1600 fps, more like 1540-1560 fps. They are good loads from a small manufacturer so I won't knock them.
You can and we did get very fast velocities from 1 1/2 oz 10 ga loads, we tried an experiment which we knew was going to go overpressure but achieved velocities of 1660 fps with averages of about 1640 fps with 1 1/2 oz loads. The problem was we were also running between 12,000 and 13,000 psi with pressures, we didn't shoot many of them.
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Re: 10 gauge: Heavy payload vs Speed

Postby solway gunner » Tue Oct 01, 2013 4:57 pm

joe
i dont do high pressure rounds out the 10ga ,simply no need to ,the advantage is with the bore diameter and the fact that big pellets dont need massive velocitys for pass shooting lethality.
id imagine those sporting ammo loads however commendable for being independent -would be difficult to pattern,did you try them?Ive never seen a or read a field test on the rem hypersonic 10ga round,considering its pretty much a revelation in development for the gauge im dissapointed ive not read one damn field trip article by anyone which i thought i mightve done on here by now,any takers-HH.. :wink:?
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