possible Black Cloud ammo issues

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possible Black Cloud ammo issues

Postby Airborne28 » Thu Oct 17, 2013 8:47 am

Dear Friends,

So I have a Beretta A400 xtreme which is good to me. Yesterday, I was patterning some new rounds through the mod choke (stock). When cleaning the choke, it was difficult to remove. I noticed scoreing on the outside of it, and tried the Cylinder and Full choke which went in easy. The droping in the Mod choke, it stops a few mm short of the choke threads.

I called Beretta and they were like "boom!, mod choke in the mail", which is awesome.

I asked about different shot sizes incase I wanted to pattern for goose, and he said "haven't had an issue with shot size, just a brand", which was Federal Black cloud. He indicated that the shells run hot which cause a lot more chamber pressure and wear and tear. I asked if this was just to this Beretta model, and he said it was not localized to the Beretta brand and that many others like Bennilli, and brownings have had the same issues.

It is not just destroying the chokes, or barrels, but bolt heads, extractors, ect.

Just wanted to pass this along
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Re: possible Black Cloud ammo issues

Postby BBK » Thu Oct 17, 2013 9:07 am

Interesting read, thanks!

So did you figure out what the choke problem was? Trying to think how scoring could get on the outside of the choke and can't come up with anything. Even scoring on the inside, black cloud has that solid super hard plastic wad that encases the shot so it would be darn near impossible to score a barrel/choke. Can't be swelled or you would never have gotten it out of there. Weird for sure!
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Re: possible Black Cloud ammo issues

Postby z51 » Thu Oct 17, 2013 11:25 am

Are you sure you meant to say scoring on the outside of the choke or did you mean scouring from removal of a tight choke with a wrench?

I would invest in an extended high quality after market choke if your factory chokes are expanding with Black Cloud. That is a choke quality issue IMO, not a few shots with any ammo in a new gun. Pressures are very low at the end of the barrel. I think Beretta is coming their rear. That's why you got a new tube so easy.
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Re: possible Black Cloud ammo issues

Postby Frank Lopez » Thu Oct 17, 2013 12:13 pm

A couple of thoughts. Scoring on the outside of the tube might be due to the tube not being properly set in the barrel. This would allow the hot gasses to infiltrate the threads and external surfaces of the tube. Just a thought.

As far as the fear of the Black Cloud loads being Hot and running higher in pressure, a little background is probably in order. First, I'm pretty sure that even if completely true it has little to do with you choke issue. By the time the shot column and wad have reached the choke tube, the pressure has dropped off to almost nothing. But Beretta may have a legitimate concern about these loads with regard to the "wear and tear" they cite. And it almost certainly has little to do with the pressure. With the exception of guns that are specifically proofed for high performance steel, CIP sets limitations (recommendations for the gun, really) with respect to the maximum velocity and payload, among other things. The idea is that they are concerned about the wear and tear not on the barrel, but on the receiver, the choke and the gun as a whole. They apparently are not so concerned with a catastrophic failure, since even a very high over pressure load would not be close to the gun's proof pressure.

What is really interesting is that they (Beretta) acknowledged that the problem is also evident in Brownings and Benellis. In fact, the issue would be a concern for any gun made in a CIP signatory nation.

Frank
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Re: possible Black Cloud ammo issues

Postby eastcoastsoxfan » Thu Oct 17, 2013 4:05 pm

Frank,
Roster talks about Radial Pressures in the barrel(360 degree pressure forces carried down the barrel beyond the chamber as the expanding gases try exit the barrel)in a publication of his, not Chamber Pressure, and the effect it can have on screw in chokes, mainly flush. He mentions Radial pressure are higher in Magnum Loads, both steel and lead and that most flush chokes aren't designed to with stand the higher Radial Pressures of Magnum Loads because the flush chokes are designed and mainly tested around lead target loads.
sounds like radial pressures indeed screw up flush chokes, according to Roster.
like z51 said, get your self a quality after market choke.
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Re: possible Black Cloud ammo issues

Postby Frank Lopez » Thu Oct 17, 2013 6:34 pm

Soxfan,

Radial pressures are a concern with chokes and steel shot. However, I don't think so much in this case. The complaint was scoring around the outside of the tube. Radial pressure would act on the inside of the tube.

Frank
I feel slightly sorry for a man who has never patterned his gun, who has no idea how far his chosen load will retain killing penetration. But I'm extremely sorry for the ducks he shoots at beyond the killing range of his gun and load - Bob Brister
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Re: possible Black Cloud ammo issues

Postby z51 » Thu Oct 17, 2013 6:54 pm

I think the complaint was the modified choke tube was expanded and difficult to remove. That was why Beretta replaced it.
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Re: possible Black Cloud ammo issues

Postby eastcoastsoxfan » Thu Oct 17, 2013 7:17 pm

Frank Lopez wrote:Soxfan,

Radial pressures are a concern with chokes and steel shot. However, I don't think so much in this case. The complaint was scoring around the outside of the tube. Radial pressure would act on the inside of the tube.

Frank


Roster wrote Magnum Lead loads(harder lead shot and loads containing buffer also) and Steel. The bigger the shot, the bigger the payload and the higher the velocity the higher radial pressures will be.

the scoring as mentioned before no doubt happened when wrenching out the choke.
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Re: possible Black Cloud ammo issues

Postby winchester1852 » Thu Oct 17, 2013 7:30 pm

got this from a different forum.

So, the A400 (originally was released as the Xplor Model) has been around for a couple years now. Last fall Beretta introduced the A400 Xtreme designed for serious hunting; waterfowl, turkey etc. Being a Beretta nut I jumped on the chance to buy one and I have been pleased with it. It fits a bit different then the Xtrema and the Xtrema2, for the most part it is a good thing as the gun is lighter, sleeker and in fact faster action. The downside is the comb is a bit higher and is/has taken quite a while to get used to the difference but I have overlooked it due to the overall liking of the gun.

I've almost always bought aftermarket chokes for my guns for mainly one reason.. Extended chokes protects the end of the barrels when leaning against trees, brush, blinds etc and sliding in and out of cases. The other benefit is most of the chokes are longer and overall can create a bit better pattern. So the search was on getting chokes as with the new gun came a new choke pattern, Optima HP. I quickly realized there wasn't near as many available for the new choke pattern as was for the Optima Plus pattern. First thought was, well it's a new gun... Yes and no given the Xplor 2 years earlier uses same choke pattern. Slowly there were more and more and found what worked for Fowlin'. Then came time to get a Turkey Choke and let me tell you its been hard to find one... I talked at length yesterday with William at Sum Toy Customs about the chokes as he was making me a couple to test out. I had been waiting a few weeks and the reason it had been longer as he was having some issues with the chokes swelling. Come to find out the chokes for the Optima HP pattern are VERY thin compared to most others out there... Other then the original Optima pattern, so seems that instead of creating a new choke pattern all Beretta did was go back to the Optima, made it longer and moved the threads so would have to get new chokes. Back to the thin walled.... I had just a few days earlier read on a couple forums where some gun nerds were talking about the same thing, thin walled. So when William mentioned having issues with them swelling due to thin walled it made sense. At any rate, William changed his design a bit and have chokes on the way to me to test out.
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Re: possible Black Cloud ammo issues

Postby Frank Lopez » Fri Oct 18, 2013 12:07 pm

eastcoastsoxfan wrote:
Frank Lopez wrote:Soxfan,

Radial pressures are a concern with chokes and steel shot. However, I don't think so much in this case. The complaint was scoring around the outside of the tube. Radial pressure would act on the inside of the tube.

Frank


Roster wrote Magnum Lead loads(harder lead shot and loads containing buffer also) and Steel. The bigger the shot, the bigger the payload and the higher the velocity the higher radial pressures will be.

the scoring as mentioned before no doubt happened when wrenching out the choke.



Regarding the scoring, you are probably correct. I was think he meant scoring parallel to the axis of the tube.

Regarding the radial pressure, this falls in with what I was saying about the CIP recommendations for steel shot, and is entirely possible. For standard proofed guns (not high performance steel proofed), CIP recommends no loads faster than about 1300fps at 2.5meters from the muzzle (roughly 1450 or so at the muzzle), no shot larger than about a US #4 and a momentum (shot weight times the velocity) of less than 12 NewtonSeconds. This last criteria is probably the culprit since Black Cloud loads run about 1650 or so for a 1 1/4oz load which would put it way over the 12Ns requirement. Another thing that might be something of an issue is the shape of the pellets. It would see that these pellets would not "flow" or compress through the choke as easily as a round pellet. But then neither would BlindSide, but Beretta didn't seem to have an issue with them.

I just checked the requirements for High Performance steel from CIP, and it's pretty clear that these loads would not meet those requirements, either.
Frank
I feel slightly sorry for a man who has never patterned his gun, who has no idea how far his chosen load will retain killing penetration. But I'm extremely sorry for the ducks he shoots at beyond the killing range of his gun and load - Bob Brister
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Re: possible Black Cloud ammo issues

Postby Hat Flats » Sat Oct 19, 2013 9:26 pm

Beretta is known for poor quality control on there chokes they are farmed out to a contractor, I have owned a lot of Beretta' s and a dial caliper will open your eyes to what the factories are supplying for your hard earned cash! I have never thrown away chokes from any gun but two Beretta's an Xtrema and a White Onyx Sporting.

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Re: possible Black Cloud ammo issues

Postby z51 » Sun Oct 20, 2013 8:21 am

z51 wrote:Are you sure you meant to say scoring on the outside of the choke or did you mean scouring from removal of a tight choke with a wrench?

I would invest in an extended high quality after market choke if your factory chokes are expanding with Black Cloud. That is a choke quality issue IMO, not a few shots with any ammo in a new gun. Pressures are very low at the end of the barrel. I think Beretta is covering their rear. That's why you got a new tube so easy.


BINGO!!! Here is my first post. Sure faster larger shot places more pressure on the choke DUH! But you wouldn't believe some the loads I've shot through my SX 2 and 11-87 with flush chokes and zero problems with chokes for 25 years on the Rem and 15 years on the Win. Beretta clearly knows they have an issue. Getting service from them is usually like pulling teeth.
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