C.I.P. Pressure Standards

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Re: C.I.P. Pressure Standards

Postby goosepit2007 » Wed Feb 26, 2014 6:18 pm

good post solway gunner!!!

right on there no need to push the speeds ect and put yourself and others in danger!! just because the bbl is proofed that high does not mean the receiver ect is ok with those pressures!!!
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Re: C.I.P. Pressure Standards

Postby lostknife4 » Wed Feb 26, 2014 6:33 pm

It all has to do with a Factor of Safety or really a Factor of Ignorance and the manufacturers have tested in the top percentile of the Bell Curve to assure their Liability Insurance Company that their barrel generally will stand a whole bunch of overpressure so if the people using these guns will keep within the guidelines that have been established that ascertain a very high probability that these guns will not fail at those pressures then the Insurance man won't have to pay out and the majority of shooters will retain the hands and arms and faces.

In other words they know that if they stress these guns up then failures will occur,also it follows then the chances are at a lower stress level there will never be any claims or a very low percentile of failures. Sh it happens!

It's really a Factor of Ignorance because we can't determine that exact pressure that the gun will fail due to variances in alloy, heat treatment, machining tolerances and all the rest of that stuff. It's done because of the factors that we don't know not so much what we do know. So be safe and stay within the guidelines, someone would miss you I'm sure.

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Re: C.I.P. Pressure Standards

Postby Frank Lopez » Wed Feb 26, 2014 6:40 pm

solway gunner wrote:Franks got you all paranoid now.If your a native American living in the USA just observe SAAMI guidlines whilst reloading


Ah, have you noticed that neither Peter nor Tony (to whom I addressed my posts) are not living in the USA? And while Northern Ireland is a signatory of CIP, Sweden is not. However, Peter's gun was built to CIP specifications and was actually proved in accordance with CIP in order to be legal for export. You are correct that they can run whatever the hell rounds they please through their guns. They own them. But, running those rounds through those guns would void any warrantees and absolve the manufacturers of any culpability in any law suit. Are you suggesting that they ignore the manufacturer's recommendations because you think you know better? Lots of fingers and eyes have been lost that way. But heck, what do you care? They aren't your eyes or fingers. :no:

Frank
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Re: C.I.P. Pressure Standards

Postby lostknife4 » Wed Feb 26, 2014 6:51 pm

Lost <-------<<< Plays well with others!!!!
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Re: C.I.P. Pressure Standards

Postby Frank Lopez » Wed Feb 26, 2014 6:54 pm

lostknife4 wrote:Lost <-------<<< Plays well with others!!!!

:lol3: :lol3: :lol3: :bow: :beer:
I feel slightly sorry for a man who has never patterned his gun, who has no idea how far his chosen load will retain killing penetration. But I'm extremely sorry for the ducks he shoots at beyond the killing range of his gun and load - Bob Brister
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Re: C.I.P. Pressure Standards

Postby cannon » Wed Feb 26, 2014 8:37 pm

Fact is, you could probably run a 25k psi load through almost any modern production gun and be fine . . . once.
Smell that? Smells like sumthin died in here.
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Re: C.I.P. Pressure Standards

Postby 3200 man » Wed Feb 26, 2014 9:12 pm

I thank both of you ( Kevin and Frank )for your time and knowledge , this makes it clear as mud to most fellas .
By staying with-in recipe / factory psi standards we all would be some what safer by following these guidelines !
When pellet size dictates killing distance , what more can a hunter ask of a 2 3/4 or 3 " load at under 1500 fps ? :thumbsup:

:yes: I'm just saying ! :hammer:
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Re: C.I.P. Pressure Standards

Postby 3200 man » Wed Feb 26, 2014 9:16 pm

With Cannons reloading ability and inquisitive mind ...............there might be some experience to this ? :help: :help: him !
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Re: C.I.P. Pressure Standards

Postby cannon » Wed Feb 26, 2014 10:05 pm

3200 man wrote:With Cannons reloading ability and inquisitive mind ...............there might be some experience to this ? :help: :help: him !


There's no hope of help for me.

What I meant to say was, the proof house guidelines aren't necessarily reflective of what a gun will withstand. The other side of that, however, is that proofing a gun to 15,000 psi doesn't mean that firing loads at that pressure won't result in complete failure within a year or two. Within reason, less is more where pressure is concerned.
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Re: C.I.P. Pressure Standards

Postby culot » Thu Feb 27, 2014 2:13 am

solway gunner wrote:Franks got you all paranoid now.If your a native American living in the USA just observe SAAMI guidlines whilst reloading .


culot wrote:
Frank Lopez wrote:Standard CIP proof is 130% of the MAP. Standard SAAMI proof is 170% of the MAP. Those are the specified minimum proofs. 1630 bar proof is the SAAMI standard proof pressure for 3 1/2 inch 12ga loads (14,000 MAP)



so if i have a 1630 bar proof XLR5 3" i can feed it with all HP steel , include 7/8 1800fps reloads ?
IS THE PUBLISHED LOAD WITHIN SAAMI GUIDLINES-IF SO THE ANSWER IS YES.

if not , what guns could take that loads ?
IN REALITY,NONE.

Someone is going to get seriously injured here.
The superior proof levelis indictive of Italian gunmakers showing some great marketing and indeed gun barrel making skills showing that their gun barrels can withstand up to this pressure before things go wrong,by staking claim that their gun barrels are in house proofed at a higher level than the Cip regulations themselves!!!!!!!!!"look our gun is stronger than the need be,come and buy one". Now all that howitzer proof stuff has done is just created a scenario,just like in some of the above posts.
In reality ,if you load to this pressure ,you and your gun will fail painfuly ,miserably and very quickly.

Cip new superior steel proof is now both 3" and 3.5" 12ga and 10ga maximum velocity @1420fps maximum shot size BB ,shot through no tighter than Half choke UK choking(US modified).Momentum value of 15 ,1050bar max pressure.

SAAMI guidlines 12ga 3" 11,500psi 793 bar ,12ga 3.5"13996psi 965 bar

As you can see SAAMI has lower maximum working breech pressures but no velocity restrictions,CIP has a higher working max breech pressure but has a velocity,shot size and choke restriction implemented. Simple pimple.
Hope thats cleared things up for the 1600bar kamikaze klan.



Not a native American , just a native Swede :smile:

in Fact we Swedes aren't allowed shoot pellets big as BB ( 4,5mm) Yes ! you herd right,

Okay , so no gun i reality is proof for the loads in LS II , but American hunters still load them and are alive :smile:
I have no interest load up to 1600+ bar and frankly not even up to a full 1050 bar.

Fabarm have their 3,5" HP choke system they claim will take everything , and i will probably never load and shoot any
bigger pellets than 3 steel 28-30gram and max 1550-1600ft


Sorry if i sound slow and it looks like i'm asking twice, but English isn't my first language
and i wasn't the brightest candle says my English teacher :hammer:

/ Peter
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Re: C.I.P. Pressure Standards

Postby culot » Thu Feb 27, 2014 2:49 am

Frank Lopez wrote:
solway gunner wrote:Franks got you all paranoid now.If your a native American living in the USA just observe SAAMI guidlines whilst reloading


Ah, have you noticed that neither Peter nor Tony (to whom I addressed my posts) are not living in the USA? And while Northern Ireland is a signatory of CIP, Sweden is not. However, Peter's gun was built to CIP specifications and was actually proved in accordance with CIP in order to be legal for export. You are correct that they can run whatever the hell rounds they please through their guns. They own them. But, running those rounds through those guns would void any warrantees and absolve the manufacturers of any culpability in any law suit. Are you suggesting that they ignore the manufacturer's recommendations because you think you know better? Lots of fingers and eyes have been lost that way. But heck, what do you care? They aren't your eyes or fingers. :no:

Frank


Hi Frank ,

thank you for your patience :smile: This CIP/SAAMI / BAR and High power and low power steel is confusing for me :huh:

/ Peter
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Re: C.I.P. Pressure Standards

Postby culot » Thu Feb 27, 2014 2:53 am

lostknife4 wrote:Lost <-------<<< Plays well with others!!!!


Lost ,

Btw: gratulations for the hockey Gold :beer:

/ Peter

Sweden
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Re: C.I.P. Pressure Standards

Postby goosepit2007 » Thu Feb 27, 2014 3:09 am

culot wrote:
solway gunner wrote:Franks got you all paranoid now.If your a native American living in the USA just observe SAAMI guidlines whilst reloading .


culot wrote:
Frank Lopez wrote:Standard CIP proof is 130% of the MAP. Standard SAAMI proof is 170% of the MAP. Those are the specified minimum proofs. 1630 bar proof is the SAAMI standard proof pressure for 3 1/2 inch 12ga loads (14,000 MAP)



so if i have a 1630 bar proof XLR5 3" i can feed it with all HP steel , include 7/8 1800fps reloads ?
IS THE PUBLISHED LOAD WITHIN SAAMI GUIDLINES-IF SO THE ANSWER IS YES.

if not , what guns could take that loads ?
IN REALITY,NONE.

Someone is going to get seriously injured here.
The superior proof levelis indictive of Italian gunmakers showing some great marketing and indeed gun barrel making skills showing that their gun barrels can withstand up to this pressure before things go wrong,by staking claim that their gun barrels are in house proofed at a higher level than the Cip regulations themselves!!!!!!!!!"look our gun is stronger than the need be,come and buy one". Now all that howitzer proof stuff has done is just created a scenario,just like in some of the above posts.
In reality ,if you load to this pressure ,you and your gun will fail painfuly ,miserably and very quickly.

Cip new superior steel proof is now both 3" and 3.5" 12ga and 10ga maximum velocity @1420fps maximum shot size BB ,shot through no tighter than Half choke UK choking(US modified).Momentum value of 15 ,1050bar max pressure.

SAAMI guidlines 12ga 3" 11,500psi 793 bar ,12ga 3.5"13996psi 965 bar

As you can see SAAMI has lower maximum working breech pressures but no velocity restrictions,CIP has a higher working max breech pressure but has a velocity,shot size and choke restriction implemented. Simple pimple.
Hope thats cleared things up for the 1600bar kamikaze klan.



Not a native American , just a native Swede :smile:

in Fact we Swedes aren't allowed shoot pellets big as BB ( 4,5mm) Yes ! you herd right,

Okay , so no gun i reality is proof for the loads in LS II , but American hunters still load them and are alive :smile:
I have no interest load up to 1600+ bar and frankly not even up to a full 1050 bar.

Fabarm have their 3,5" HP choke system they claim will take everything , and i will probably never load and shoot any
bigger pellets than 3 steel 28-30gram and max 1550-1600ft


Sorry if i sound slow and it looks like i'm asking twice, but English isn't my first language
and i wasn't the brightest candle says my English teacher :hammer:

/ Peter

ls2 manual psi is 8880-11,500 psi
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Re: C.I.P. Pressure Standards

Postby solway gunner » Thu Feb 27, 2014 3:33 am

Frank Lopez wrote:
solway gunner wrote:Franks got you all paranoid now.If your a native American living in the USA just observe SAAMI guidlines whilst reloading


Ah, have you noticed that neither Peter nor Tony (to whom I addressed my posts) are not living in the USA? And while Northern Ireland is a signatory of CIP, Sweden is not. However, Peter's gun was built to CIP specifications and was actually proved in accordance with CIP in order to be legal for export. You are correct that they can run whatever the hell rounds they please through their guns. They own them. But, running those rounds through those guns would void any warrantees and absolve the manufacturers of any culpability in any law suit. Are you suggesting that they ignore the manufacturer's recommendations because you think you know better? Lots of fingers and eyes have been lost that way. But heck, what do you care? They aren't your eyes or fingers. :no:

Frank


Frank your like a old menstruating old woman who loves arguing because thats all there is to look forward to in life-go take some multi vitamins and go for a stroll in the countryside and breath in..

Where did i suggest loading to the detriment of other re loaders??where?you make things up as you go along-i didnt- have another read and leave your gin bottle alone.
I suggested loading to SAAMI specs,because in my view they are safer for obvious reasons-and i couldnt care less if the other guys come from Tweenie land -id still say the same to them-load to Saami specs and ignore the abnormaly high proof levels.,that is unless you want to look like Capt.Hook some day.
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Re: C.I.P. Pressure Standards

Postby BT Justice » Thu Feb 27, 2014 5:08 am

solway gunner wrote:IN REALITY,NONE.

Someone is going to get seriously injured here.
The superior proof levelis indictive of Italian gunmakers showing some great marketing and indeed gun barrel making skills showing that their gun barrels can withstand up to this pressure before things go wrong,by staking claim that their gun barrels are in house proofed at a higher level than the Cip regulations themselves!!!!!!!!!"look our gun is stronger than the need be,come and buy one". Now all that howitzer proof stuff has done is just created a scenario,just like in some of the above posts.
In reality ,if you load to this pressure ,you and your gun will fail painfuly ,miserably and very quickly.

Cip new superior steel proof is now both 3" and 3.5" 12ga and 10ga maximum velocity @1420fps maximum shot size BB ,shot through no tighter than Half choke UK choking(US modified).Momentum value of 15 ,1050bar max pressure.

SAAMI guidlines 12ga 3" 11,500psi 793 bar ,12ga 3.5"13996psi 965 bar

As you can see SAAMI has lower maximum working breech pressures but no velocity restrictions,CIP has a higher working max breech pressure but has a velocity,shot size and choke restriction implemented. Simple pimple.
Hope thats cleared things up for the 1600bar kamikaze klan.

This is the part that gets me confused on the CIP standards, CIP sets restrictions on shot size, choke constriction and velocities, which in many instances just brings you back to near SAAMI standards anyway. Are they just putting a different spin on the same thing by twisting the facts, it seems kind of ridiculous in a way to say a gun is safe with higher pressure by changing shot size or choke constriction. Eventually something is not going to work correctly and you will have the Kamikaze effect.
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Re: C.I.P. Pressure Standards

Postby lostknife4 » Thu Feb 27, 2014 5:43 am

culot wrote:
lostknife4 wrote:Lost <-------<<< Plays well with others!!!!


Lost ,

Btw: gratulations for the hockey Gold :beer:

/ Peter

Sweden


Tusen takk Peter
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Re: C.I.P. Pressure Standards

Postby 3200 man » Thu Feb 27, 2014 8:11 am

I'm sure with bigger pellets shooting them at higher velocities through a IC choke would be safe in my guns but , with
the idea of tightening the pattern a little more and shooting it through a more constrictive choke causes pressures to rise !
The report of the gun and being on your back on the ground after shooting while standing-up , seem to indicate this ? :lol3:

Here in the US and abroad ?
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Re: C.I.P. Pressure Standards

Postby Frank Lopez » Thu Feb 27, 2014 10:53 am

BT Justice wrote:This is the part that gets me confused on the CIP standards, CIP sets restrictions on shot size, choke constriction and velocities, which in many instances just brings you back to near SAAMI standards anyway. Are they just putting a different spin on the same thing by twisting the facts, it seems kind of ridiculous in a way to say a gun is safe with higher pressure by changing shot size or choke constriction. Eventually something is not going to work correctly and you will have the Kamikaze effect.


BT,

SAAMI specifications deal only with chamber pressure. Basically, that means that if you load up 1 1/2oz of T shot at 1750fps and shoot it through an extra full choke, say .090 constriction just for giggles, so long as the pressure does not exceed the SAAMI specifications, you're in compliance. CIP, on the other hand, takes a look at the whole of the gun, or at least the whole of the barrel. SAAMI and CIP both call for the measurement of chamber pressure. However, the method of measurement is different. This is of some concern, and recently prompted a series of four articles in Shooting Sportsman that attempted to clarify the differences in the two methods.

CIP's limitations are generally designed to address the concerns of shooting steel through all guns, not just those that are proofed for steel. SAAMI makes no distinction. You could, for example, load up some Hypersonic BBs into an old full choked 3 inch Philly Fox and still be in compliance. I'm not sure what the result would be, but I'm quite sure that it's something I wouldn't do and expect the gun to survive for any period of time. On the other hand, if you were to apply the CIP recommendations to the old gun, it's pretty likely that there would be no damage.

Where CIP does regulate guns proved specifically for high performance steel, they recognize the danger of shooting certain loads through certain chokes. The tack they've taken is to limit the momentum through the choke area. Doing this limits the force applied to the choke cone and therefore minimizes the potential for failure. Essentially, what they are saying is that you can have up t0 1050 bar (15225psi) chamber pressure, (as measured by CIP's method, not SAAMI's) but you cannot have a momentum greater than 15 Newton-seconds (the weight of the shot charge, in Kgs, multiplied by its velocity in m/s). The example they use is a 35gm load (1 1/4oz) at 430m/s (1400fps).

Confused yet?

Frank
I feel slightly sorry for a man who has never patterned his gun, who has no idea how far his chosen load will retain killing penetration. But I'm extremely sorry for the ducks he shoots at beyond the killing range of his gun and load - Bob Brister
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Re: C.I.P. Pressure Standards

Postby Frank Lopez » Thu Feb 27, 2014 11:03 am

solway gunner wrote:Where did i suggest loading to the detriment of other re loaders??where?you make things up as you go along-i didnt- have another read and leave your gin bottle alone.


By your own admission, right here!

solway gunner wrote:I suggested loading to SAAMI specs,because in my view they are safer for obvious reasons-and i couldnt care less if the other guys come from Tweenie land -id still say the same to them-load to Saami specs and ignore the abnormaly high proof levels.,that is unless you want to look like Capt.Hook some day.

(emphasis mine)

In your view? Really, how is that applicable in this case? In your particular case, being a British subject, CIP is the law of the land. Your suggestions to load to SAAMI specifications (which are actually not law over here, but rather voluntary) is contrary to both British law and international law (by treaty). Sure, the pressure is less, but CIP makes other provisions.

Frank
I feel slightly sorry for a man who has never patterned his gun, who has no idea how far his chosen load will retain killing penetration. But I'm extremely sorry for the ducks he shoots at beyond the killing range of his gun and load - Bob Brister
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Re: C.I.P. Pressure Standards

Postby solway gunner » Thu Feb 27, 2014 5:48 pm

So whats wrong with promoting SAAMI guidlines ?In the UK we use US guns ,reload with US components ,with US made powder and load to US loading data.,now if you have a problem with that,then im afraid then thats your problem .
I merely pointed out the difference between SAAMI V CIP regs and voiced what the whole UK reloading sector has realised for some time(and our Guntrade too) with regards to those Euro bull*hit regs... and by the way we can load to whoevers damn regulations we want too.
Now why the hell cant a Brit (me)post on the reloading section of a US hunting website promoting US reloading guidlines??have i contravened some form of The Frank Lopez International Reloading Law? Seriously Frank have you any idea how ridiculous that reads?
I also dont know where you get your misinformation from as so called CIP "regulations" regarding the use of steel shot are actually a guideline only, not enforceable by any law. (just like your SAAMI regs :wink: )-hence why i said they are "contradictory"....Your getting confused with gun proofing which does carry a legal obligation but isnt relevant to this thread.
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Re: C.I.P. Pressure Standards

Postby Frank Lopez » Thu Feb 27, 2014 6:34 pm

Solway, have you actually taken the time to read the CIP regulations? Now granted, any individual is free to load up whatever loads they want into their own guns. Just as I can freely load a 3 1/2 inch 12ga load into my 3 inch guns. But, that doesn't necessarily make it a smart thing to do. So, while the CIP document in question does contain recommendations for the use of steel shot in various shotguns, the fact of the matter is that the document is the regulation for the manufacture and proving of both steel ammunition and the high performance steel proof of shotguns. Your suggestion to "load to SAAMI" specs satisfies one aspect of the CIP proof requirement. But it does not conform to other requirements.

Ultimately, the choice falls to the individual shooter. The better informed the shooter, the better he can make an educated decision.

Frank
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Re: C.I.P. Pressure Standards

Postby solway gunner » Fri Feb 28, 2014 4:07 am

Frank,
The trouble is /has been/will continue /to be caused because of handloaders (and one UK data source) ,ignoring the CIP guidelineson choke and velocity restrictions and loading right up to that 1050bar or 15k psi parameter,which was my point entirely and why i suggested for handloaders to use SAAMI maximum guideline pressures only,as they are a far safer bet to load too and further still, going right back to the start of the thread-to stop guys from falling into the "wondering what if.." handloading trap of loading to abnormally high breech pressures which are stamped on their guns.
The logical solution here as i see it is is for handloaders to be made aware of the two reloading "guidlines" and let them make up their own minds on the subject when it comes to handloading,or better still load up to known published SAAMI guidline reloading data.
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Re: C.I.P. Pressure Standards

Postby BT Justice » Fri Feb 28, 2014 4:34 am

Frank Lopez wrote:
BT Justice wrote:This is the part that gets me confused on the CIP standards, CIP sets restrictions on shot size, choke constriction and velocities, which in many instances just brings you back to near SAAMI standards anyway. Are they just putting a different spin on the same thing by twisting the facts, it seems kind of ridiculous in a way to say a gun is safe with higher pressure by changing shot size or choke constriction. Eventually something is not going to work correctly and you will have the Kamikaze effect.


BT,

SAAMI specifications deal only with chamber pressure. Basically, that means that if you load up 1 1/2oz of T shot at 1750fps and shoot it through an extra full choke, say .090 constriction just for giggles, so long as the pressure does not exceed the SAAMI specifications, you're in compliance. CIP, on the other hand, takes a look at the whole of the gun, or at least the whole of the barrel. SAAMI and CIP both call for the measurement of chamber pressure. However, the method of measurement is different. This is of some concern, and recently prompted a series of four articles in Shooting Sportsman that attempted to clarify the differences in the two methods.

CIP's limitations are generally designed to address the concerns of shooting steel through all guns, not just those that are proofed for steel. SAAMI makes no distinction. You could, for example, load up some Hypersonic BBs into an old full choked 3 inch Philly Fox and still be in compliance. I'm not sure what the result would be, but I'm quite sure that it's something I wouldn't do and expect the gun to survive for any period of time. On the other hand, if you were to apply the CIP recommendations to the old gun, it's pretty likely that there would be no damage.

Where CIP does regulate guns proved specifically for high performance steel, they recognize the danger of shooting certain loads through certain chokes. The tack they've taken is to limit the momentum through the choke area. Doing this limits the force applied to the choke cone and therefore minimizes the potential for failure. Essentially, what they are saying is that you can have up t0 1050 bar (15225psi) chamber pressure, (as measured by CIP's method, not SAAMI's) but you cannot have a momentum greater than 15 Newton-seconds (the weight of the shot charge, in Kgs, multiplied by its velocity in m/s). The example they use is a 35gm load (1 1/4oz) at 430m/s (1400fps).

Confused yet?

Frank

Kind of confused before all that... :lol3:
Here's my take on it, I understand what the Europeans have tried to do with the CIP standards, but in reality ( to me at least)
it seems mostly theoretical, or to put it further they are using calculated scenarios with standards they have set.
To be able to say this gun/load/choke combination is safe firing this round using this sized shot is a bit on the ridiculous side, again using set standards they think are correct. In theory it's a darn good Idea, in real world practice you could say it's non sense.
Maybe it's splitting hairs on my part but to honestly make something like CIP work would take decades of testing and it would have to be constantly updated. You would have to test every gun on the market with every choke combination, then test every load combination with every size of shot, then to make matters even more complicated you would have to test every type of powder, primer, wad, hull, etc., see where I'm going with this?
Maybe I'm looking at it wrong but to say this load combination is safe at this velocity using this sized shot leaves the door open on to many what if's in my book and I guess why I think even though the SAAMI pressure standards are lower they are much safer.
'
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Re: C.I.P. Pressure Standards

Postby Frank Lopez » Fri Feb 28, 2014 10:42 am

BT Justice wrote:...it seems mostly theoretical, or to put it further they are using calculated scenarios with standards they have set. To be able to say this gun/load/choke combination is safe firing this round using this sized shot is a bit on the ridiculous side, again using set standards they think are correct. In theory it's a darn good Idea, in real world practice you could say it's non sense.'


One thing that you have to remember about the CIP/SAAMI differences is that regardless of what people say about a "global economy" or "world village", there are some very large cultural differences between Europe (mostly) and the good old USA. American guns, for the most part, are much more robust than their European counter parts. The European guns, on the other hand, tend to be lighter and more lively handling than all but the best American examples. Europeans favor thinner barrels to achieve this. Thinner barrels are more vulnerable to damage by shot charges bridging at the choke cone. And, finally, larger shot tends to bridge more than smaller shot.

Of course, they could just build their guns a little more robustly! :lol3:

Frank
I feel slightly sorry for a man who has never patterned his gun, who has no idea how far his chosen load will retain killing penetration. But I'm extremely sorry for the ducks he shoots at beyond the killing range of his gun and load - Bob Brister
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Re: C.I.P. Pressure Standards

Postby Frank Lopez » Fri Feb 28, 2014 10:46 am

solway gunner wrote:Frank,
The trouble is /has been/will continue /to be caused because of handloaders (and one UK data source) ,ignoring the CIP guidelineson choke and velocity restrictions and loading right up to that 1050bar or 15k psi parameter,which was my point entirely and why i suggested for handloaders to use SAAMI maximum guideline pressures only,as they are a far safer bet to load too and further still, going right back to the start of the thread-to stop guys from falling into the "wondering what if.." handloading trap of loading to abnormally high breech pressures which are stamped on their guns.
The logical solution here as i see it is is for handloaders to be made aware of the two reloading "guidlines" and let them make up their own minds on the subject when it comes to handloading,or better still load up to known published SAAMI guidline reloading data.


You'll get no argument from me on this. As you pointed out earlier, it really is a bit silly to have to follow the regulations with guns built in the US and sold in the UK. Not so much from the pressure stand point as from the shot size/choke limitations, so long as the manufacturer's recommendations are followed.

Frank
I feel slightly sorry for a man who has never patterned his gun, who has no idea how far his chosen load will retain killing penetration. But I'm extremely sorry for the ducks he shoots at beyond the killing range of his gun and load - Bob Brister
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Frank Lopez
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