C.I.P. Pressure Standards

Interact with others on shot gun shells, reloading, ballistics, chokes, or anything that has to do with your shooting.

Moderators: donell67, pennsyltucky, Ohio Wildfowler, NV Guide

Re: C.I.P. Pressure Standards

Postby culot » Fri Feb 28, 2014 6:39 pm

Frank Lopez wrote:
BT Justice wrote:...it seems mostly theoretical, or to put it further they are using calculated scenarios with standards they have set. To be able to say this gun/load/choke combination is safe firing this round using this sized shot is a bit on the ridiculous side, again using set standards they think are correct. In theory it's a darn good Idea, in real world practice you could say it's non sense.'


One thing that you have to remember about the CIP/SAAMI differences is that regardless of what people say about a "global economy" or "world village", there are some very large cultural differences between Europe (mostly) and the good old USA. American guns, for the most part, are much more robust than their European counter parts. The European guns, on the other hand, tend to be lighter and more lively handling than all but the best American examples. Europeans favor thinner barrels to achieve this. Thinner barrels are more vulnerable to damage by shot charges bridging at the choke cone. And, finally, larger shot tends to bridge more than smaller shot.

Of course, they could just build their guns a little more robustly! :lol3:

Frank


Hmm! so Beretta, Benelli, Fabarm etc etc etc autos is all crap , and american autos are not ? What will Beretta, Benelli,Fabarm of america say about that ? If thats true , why are the alowed to sell their products in united states ?

Ps: yes , im a bit ironic ....

/peter
culot
hunter
 
Posts: 91
Joined: Fri Feb 21, 2014 5:15 pm


Re: C.I.P. Pressure Standards

Postby BT Justice » Sat Mar 01, 2014 5:07 am

Frank Lopez wrote:
BT Justice wrote:...it seems mostly theoretical, or to put it further they are using calculated scenarios with standards they have set. To be able to say this gun/load/choke combination is safe firing this round using this sized shot is a bit on the ridiculous side, again using set standards they think are correct. In theory it's a darn good Idea, in real world practice you could say it's non sense.'


One thing that you have to remember about the CIP/SAAMI differences is that regardless of what people say about a "global economy" or "world village", there are some very large cultural differences between Europe (mostly) and the good old USA. American guns, for the most part, are much more robust than their European counter parts. The European guns, on the other hand, tend to be lighter and more lively handling than all but the best American examples. Europeans favor thinner barrels to achieve this. Thinner barrels are more vulnerable to damage by shot charges bridging at the choke cone. And, finally, larger shot tends to bridge more than smaller shot.

Of course, they could just build their guns a little more robustly! :lol3:

Frank

Think a lot of the older European guns were made very well, I've had the good fortune of handling a few Kriegoff and Heym shotguns and they were very well made. Probably more of a regional thing on what quality you got where.
I hate to admit this as it will give some of friends from the U K a feather in their cap.. :lol3: , Probably the nicest shotgun I ever handled was a Purdey, like the gun was hand made to fit me. That was many years ago, wish I would have had the money to buy it back then, the $30,000 being asked for it would have ben a bargain today.. :lol3:
User avatar
BT Justice
hunter
 
Posts: 1501
Joined: Thu Apr 21, 2011 4:43 pm

Re: C.I.P. Pressure Standards

Postby BT Justice » Sat Mar 01, 2014 5:15 am

culot wrote:
Frank Lopez wrote:
BT Justice wrote:...it seems mostly theoretical, or to put it further they are using calculated scenarios with standards they have set. To be able to say this gun/load/choke combination is safe firing this round using this sized shot is a bit on the ridiculous side, again using set standards they think are correct. In theory it's a darn good Idea, in real world practice you could say it's non sense.'


One thing that you have to remember about the CIP/SAAMI differences is that regardless of what people say about a "global economy" or "world village", there are some very large cultural differences between Europe (mostly) and the good old USA. American guns, for the most part, are much more robust than their European counter parts. The European guns, on the other hand, tend to be lighter and more lively handling than all but the best American examples. Europeans favor thinner barrels to achieve this. Thinner barrels are more vulnerable to damage by shot charges bridging at the choke cone. And, finally, larger shot tends to bridge more than smaller shot.

Of course, they could just build their guns a little more robustly! :lol3:

Frank


Hmm! so Beretta, Benelli, Fabarm etc etc etc autos is all crap , and american autos are not ? What will Beretta, Benelli,Fabarm of america say about that ? If thats true , why are the alowed to sell their products in united states ?

Ps: yes , im a bit ironic ....

/peter

No ...what's being stated is many of the Euro manufacturers have Re Written the rule book and made a wider range of scenarios..basically to make their guns look better.
Kind of like frosting a bigger cake with the same amount of frosting you would use on a smaller cake and saying we're giving you more, in reality all they did was spread the frosting out thinner..if that makes sense to you.
User avatar
BT Justice
hunter
 
Posts: 1501
Joined: Thu Apr 21, 2011 4:43 pm

Re: C.I.P. Pressure Standards

Postby 3200 man » Sat Mar 01, 2014 7:33 am

I'm trying to remember where I read Fabarms stated they got a 1630 bars proofing shooting #4 steel shot in the
tapered barrel with a 2 3/4 chamber , even tho 2 3/4 and 3 " factory ammo has far less psi limits !

Is that Marketing at its best in the USA ?

My XLR 5 is a great clay target gun with all the options it came stock with ! Proofing wasn't one of them , though !
3200 man
hunter
 
Posts: 2850
Joined: Thu Nov 12, 2009 10:30 am

Re: C.I.P. Pressure Standards

Postby Frank Lopez » Sat Mar 01, 2014 10:00 am

culot wrote:Hmm! so Beretta, Benelli, Fabarm etc etc etc autos is all crap , and american autos are not ? What will Beretta, Benelli,Fabarm of america say about that ? If thats true , why are the alowed to sell their products in united states ?

Ps: yes , im a bit ironic ....

/peter


Actually, Peter, if you look at the manufacturer's web pages, they do tend to follow the CIP recommendations. For example, on the Beretta web page for its choke tubes, it advertises that the tubes are all steel proofed. However, the footnote states that the IM and Full tubes are not recommended for use with steel shot.

Frank
I feel slightly sorry for a man who has never patterned his gun, who has no idea how far his chosen load will retain killing penetration. But I'm extremely sorry for the ducks he shoots at beyond the killing range of his gun and load - Bob Brister
User avatar
Frank Lopez
hunter
 
Posts: 2994
Joined: Wed Feb 03, 2010 4:34 pm
Location: Long Island New York

Re: C.I.P. Pressure Standards

Postby solway gunner » Sat Mar 01, 2014 1:36 pm

But for example you can with Remingtons good old Rem chokes -if its the newer design stamped on the choke-or Mossbergs exellent Accumag in their o/bore 835/935 and right up to T shot through full constriction too .
This is where the after market choke sells well and safeguards SAAMI guidelines with most manufacturers advising on shotsize/velocity restrictions.
(I can never speak highly enough of Mossbergs factory Accu mag choke tubes for the 835/935.Ithink they are the best choke design for strength from all the high end dollar guns and are virtualy unhindered by steel shot size right up to T and im sure without velocity restriction either.I had some fantastic BBB /T patterns from mine which ive never seen replicated unless shot from another Mossy and they are an internal choke design too.Stood upright together,they made my sp10 rem choke look silly.Pity the rest of the gun always let the barrels down.)
solway gunner
hunter
 
Posts: 1441
Joined: Thu Jan 10, 2008 10:50 am
Location: scotland uk

Re: C.I.P. Pressure Standards

Postby culot » Sat Mar 01, 2014 2:37 pm

Frank Lopez wrote:
culot wrote:Hmm! so Beretta, Benelli, Fabarm etc etc etc autos is all crap , and american autos are not ? What will Beretta, Benelli,Fabarm of america say about that ? If thats true , why are the alowed to sell their products in united states ?

Ps: yes , im a bit ironic ....

/peter


Actually, Peter, if you look at the manufacturer's web pages, they do tend to follow the CIP recommendations. For example, on the Beretta web page for its choke tubes, it advertises that the tubes are all steel proofed. However, the footnote states that the IM and Full tubes are not recommended for use with steel shot.

Frank


Frank,

Arent Beretta SP chokes for steel include full ? Btw: i frankly not care som much, im just curios about steel. And we also have the recomedation in Sweden even for no 7-6 target steel. But i got the absolute best pattern @ 40 yds using a Briley X2 LF in my
Browning 425 32" barrel. For sporting clays @ longer distances and EU trap.

And yes i bought the Fabarm 1630 bar talk, i belived i have slightly bigger margin as a homeloader.

I have own many autos and pump mossberg 500, 835 , KTG , rem 1100, browning 2000, double automatic , Mossb 9200 , brown Sporting Gold , Gold 3,5" , benelliM2 beretta 390, and now a Fabarm XLR5 composite Who i think is good enough if i like to hunt with steel. And since we dont use any BB steel ( we arent alowed) i think i be safe.

/Peter
culot
hunter
 
Posts: 91
Joined: Fri Feb 21, 2014 5:15 pm

Re: C.I.P. Pressure Standards

Postby 3200 man » Sun Mar 02, 2014 7:20 am

Culot

Just playing around I shot a couple of my reloads out of my XLR 5 with the # 5 choke , these were RSI 65 with 3 steel .
If this gun was a field model , I do believe it would compete with most autos on the market these days . With yours
being a 3" chambered gun , a little more payload would even make it better .
3200 man
hunter
 
Posts: 2850
Joined: Thu Nov 12, 2009 10:30 am

Re: C.I.P. Pressure Standards

Postby culot » Sun Mar 02, 2014 11:36 am

3200 man wrote:Culot

Just playing around I shot a couple of my reloads out of my XLR 5 with the # 5 choke , these were RSI 65 with 3 steel .
If this gun was a field model , I do believe it would compete with most autos on the market these days . With yours
being a 3" chambered gun , a little more payload would even make it better .


3200,

I really like to hear that :thumbsup: Frankly you dont see many in Sweden yet , Beretta & Benelli have a strong position
And a strong importer. But after using an O/U since 2000 im in for a auto again, and i like what i see when i take a XLR5
Apart in the gunstore, and they are a little muzzle hevy that i like, the 26" was wimpy so i ordered a 28"

/Peter
culot
hunter
 
Posts: 91
Joined: Fri Feb 21, 2014 5:15 pm

Re: C.I.P. Pressure Standards

Postby culot » Wed Mar 05, 2014 7:51 am

3200 man wrote:Culot

Just playing around I shot a couple of my reloads out of my XLR 5 with the # 5 choke , these were RSI 65 with 3 steel .
If this gun was a field model , I do believe it would compete with most autos on the market these days . With yours
being a 3" chambered gun , a little more payload would even make it better .


3200,

Your XLR5 was a target model ? and 2 3/4 chamber right ? a special gas compensator for the target guns i heard..
I'm curious if mine will eat 24gram steel target loads ( less than 7/8 ) We are not allowed shoot lead for clays
in Sweden and we was limited to use 24gram until 2 years ago, so now now we can use 28gram steel ( 1oz)
for competition..

/ Peter
culot
hunter
 
Posts: 91
Joined: Fri Feb 21, 2014 5:15 pm

Re: C.I.P. Pressure Standards

Postby 3200 man » Wed Mar 05, 2014 9:07 am

I had a couple boxes of Win 1 oz 7's and 6's steel shot at 1325 fps , using the # 7 choke I really didn't have a problem
breaking 27 yd targets with these loads and the gun functioned just like shooting lead shot ! I don't know for sure but ,
I'm thinking with the tapered bore this gun builds pressure as the payload travels down the barrel ? Is it better or more
efficient with the powder burn ? or am I just all wet ? :huh: :lol3:
3200 man
hunter
 
Posts: 2850
Joined: Thu Nov 12, 2009 10:30 am

Re: C.I.P. Pressure Standards

Postby lostknife4 » Wed Mar 05, 2014 9:32 am

3200 man wrote:I had a couple boxes of Win 1 oz 7's and 6's steel shot at 1325 fps , using the # 7 choke I really didn't have a problem
breaking 27 yd targets with these loads and the gun functioned just like shooting lead shot ! I don't know for sure but ,
I'm thinking with the tapered bore this gun builds pressure as the payload travels down the barrel ? Is it better or more
efficient with the powder burn ? or am I just all wet ? :huh: :lol3:


Probably would change the slope of the pressure curve but before the shot leaves the barrel the powder should have already been consumed or you have to much powder. There are a lot of factors that contribute to the rate of burning of the powder and the expanding volume of the powder gas is one of those factors. Since your volume is increasing due to movement thru the barrel in a decreasing diameter barrel there becomes a rate of change volume wrt distance traveled but this all occurs when the pressure has decreased well below the initial ignition. It will no doubt have a higher pressure than is the case with a standard or parallel bored barrel but I doubt there will be a substantial increase in efficiency of powder burning generally, some powders require pressure to burn completely and this could possibly benefit the users of Blue Dot at below freezing temperatures.....
Lost
"It's not the game but the chase ~ not the trophy but the race !" from my Dad, many years ago.
User avatar
lostknife4
hunter
 
Posts: 4442
Joined: Sat Apr 03, 2010 4:32 pm
Location: Eastern Canada

Re: C.I.P. Pressure Standards

Postby 3200 man » Wed Mar 05, 2014 3:19 pm

Lost

I see your logic so , why do my same target loads with 18.3 gr of 700 X show a greater fps ave/dev in this tapered barrel ?
It's hard to believe how soft of recoil this gun has but , I do know with weight ,reducer in the stock and gas system in my
other auto target guns that are over-bored the fps is less , not a bunch but enough to wonder if ?

Thanks for your help understanding this ! :huh:
3200 man
hunter
 
Posts: 2850
Joined: Thu Nov 12, 2009 10:30 am

Re: C.I.P. Pressure Standards

Postby culot » Wed Mar 05, 2014 4:22 pm

3200 man wrote:Lost

I see your logic so , why do my same target loads with 18.3 gr of 700 X show a greater fps ave/dev in this tapered barrel ?
It's hard to believe how soft of recoil this gun has but , I do know with weight ,reducer in the stock and gas system in my
other auto target guns that are over-bored the fps is less , not a bunch but enough to wonder if ?

Thanks for your help understanding this ! :huh:


Sounds like your XLR5 do what Fabarm say Tri-bore barrel system should do :thumbsup:

are your target load steel also ??

and your talk about soft recoil is music in my ear ( i hate recoil )

/ Peter
culot
hunter
 
Posts: 91
Joined: Fri Feb 21, 2014 5:15 pm

Re: C.I.P. Pressure Standards

Postby lostknife4 » Wed Mar 05, 2014 6:17 pm

3200 man wrote:Lost

I see your logic so , why do my same target loads with 18.3 gr of 700 X show a greater fps ave/dev in this tapered barrel ?
It's hard to believe how soft of recoil this gun has but , I do know with weight ,reducer in the stock and gas system in my
other auto target guns that are over-bored the fps is less , not a bunch but enough to wonder if ?

Thanks for your help understanding this ! :huh:


Try some with a bit faster or a bit slower burning powder, it almost appears that the powder has a mind of it's own and can't decide to burn faster or slower LOL as crazy as that sounds.....
Lost
"It's not the game but the chase ~ not the trophy but the race !" from my Dad, many years ago.
User avatar
lostknife4
hunter
 
Posts: 4442
Joined: Sat Apr 03, 2010 4:32 pm
Location: Eastern Canada

Re: C.I.P. Pressure Standards

Postby 3200 man » Wed Mar 05, 2014 8:03 pm

:beer: Will do !


Peter.............We get to shoot lead here , maybe not long though as there is serious talk going on , they don't want lead
in the ground even though we mine it every 4 to 6 years . :huh:
With a # 5 choke being .023 , what choke do you prefer shooting birds with steel ?
3200 man
hunter
 
Posts: 2850
Joined: Thu Nov 12, 2009 10:30 am

Re: C.I.P. Pressure Standards

Postby culot » Thu Mar 06, 2014 6:24 am

3200 man wrote::beer: Will do !


Peter.............We get to shoot lead here , maybe not long though as there is serious talk going on , they don't want lead
in the ground even though we mine it every 4 to 6 years . :huh:
With a # 5 choke being .023 , what choke do you prefer shooting birds with steel ?


I must admit, I have not shot with my XLR5 yet. It is still at the dealer, and it is because of the abnormally long delay in processing
weapons licenses that we have right now in Sweden. They switched data systems December 17, 2013
and now it's worse than ever. I submitted my application on 27/12 2013 and still waiting.

when i competed in Sporting clays i shoot Briley X2 MOD/MOD and 7: 24gram steel , but today when i just practice
i shoot Briley LF/LF who pattern beautiful @ 39yds/ 35meter.. when i got mine XLR5 i have strong belive # 7 choke
will be a real killer for steel and clay bird. We have use steel in claybird shooting so long now i Sweden ( like usa an waterfowl)
and there are no problem brake e'm , just don't use a choke to open. In our beginning of steel all say " you must use only open choke like skeet and IC and what ever you do NO tighter than MOD ....yada..yada bla bla and so on " ok fine, @ 29 yds Mod
and :7steel 24g is a killer choke, but for 50 yds crosser you need tighten up if you want to be 100% for a hard hit.
# 5 Fabarm choke will probably do a weary good job with 7/8 oz :7 steel @ 1350fps
24gram :7 is the standard claybird load in Sweden

/ Peter
culot
hunter
 
Posts: 91
Joined: Fri Feb 21, 2014 5:15 pm

Re: C.I.P. Pressure Standards

Postby 3200 man » Thu Mar 06, 2014 7:29 am

Peter

I believe what your saying , I too like the # 7 choke the most for Clay targets with ether lead or steel shot but , I also
think the # 5 choke would be better for steel shot Waterfowling loads as it's .023 constriction (should) be just about right
for most size shot . You're going to enjoy shooting this gun with the options it comes with to adjust it for fit and its soft
recoiling . I know , I like mine ! But it's only a Clay target gun .
3200 man
hunter
 
Posts: 2850
Joined: Thu Nov 12, 2009 10:30 am

Re: C.I.P. Pressure Standards

Postby culot » Sat Mar 08, 2014 2:23 pm

Jim Atlas wrote:
3200 man wrote:So , tell me ? Fabarms list its XLR 5 at 1630 bars , with this kind of pressure proofing the limits are endless , right ?

Yes, endless ..... up to 1630get bar, that is.


And 1630 bar is still 23641 psi , so there are some gap from 1370bar/19870psi .

/Peter

Sweden
culot
hunter
 
Posts: 91
Joined: Fri Feb 21, 2014 5:15 pm

Re: C.I.P. Pressure Standards

Postby 3200 man » Sun Mar 09, 2014 1:43 pm

So , with the question of :huh:

How low of a reduced load do we go with this tapered barrel to reach Max pressure , if the tapered barrel increases pressure ?

Is it 10 % 20 % 30 %.............or just stay with Saami standards along with most every shotgun made ?

I'm thinking off the shelf ammo will perform better in a tapered bore gun , ? :help: or :fingerhead:
3200 man
hunter
 
Posts: 2850
Joined: Thu Nov 12, 2009 10:30 am

Re: C.I.P. Pressure Standards

Postby culot » Mon Mar 10, 2014 1:43 am

3200 man wrote:So , with the question of :huh:

How low of a reduced load do we go with this tapered barrel to reach Max pressure , if the tapered barrel increases pressure ?

Is it 10 % 20 % 30 %.............or just stay with Saami standards along with most every shotgun made ?

I'm thinking off the shelf ammo will perform better in a tapered bore gun , ? :help: or :fingerhead:


I will try out some 800-850 bar loads 2 3/4 max 1 1/8 1500-1600ft for my XLR5 fabarm , what i have herd n' read over here

this will do fine for ducks and divers out to 50 yds. and isn't their also a problem with high pressure patterns will suck ??

/ Peter
culot
hunter
 
Posts: 91
Joined: Fri Feb 21, 2014 5:15 pm

Re: C.I.P. Pressure Standards

Postby 3200 man » Mon Mar 10, 2014 7:29 am

Peter

With higher pressure NOT necessarily creating higher velocity I don't see any advantage to adding more powder to a load
But , increasing shot size seems to do a better job . Shooting a load that our guns Like (functions good) it does make it
more enjoyable to shoot as , it's not the bow or arrow saying ?
3200 man
hunter
 
Posts: 2850
Joined: Thu Nov 12, 2009 10:30 am

Re: C.I.P. Pressure Standards

Postby culot » Mon Mar 10, 2014 8:47 am

3200 man wrote:Peter

With higher pressure NOT necessarily creating higher velocity I don't see any advantage to adding more powder to a load
But , increasing shot size seems to do a better job . Shooting a load that our guns Like (functions good) it does make it
more enjoyable to shoot as , it's not the bow or arrow saying ?


But a highpressure HV load must be harder get nice pattern from ? and off sure i rather shoot a 800bar load
im no fan of recoil..

i found some CIP Steel load from England, and you didn't see any high speed at all , especially the 2 3/4

/ Peter
culot
hunter
 
Posts: 91
Joined: Fri Feb 21, 2014 5:15 pm

Re: C.I.P. Pressure Standards

Postby 3200 man » Mon Mar 10, 2014 1:01 pm

With # 3 steel shot or bigger ( for my type hunting ) I see no advantage to velocities more than 1500 fps +or- !
If the conditions dictate ( wind or hanging ) birds out to 45 yds plus , I go with 2's ,1's or B's in a little more payload
as long as I'm in the 1425 to 1450 fps range . This seems to work great and with less recoil and a pattern density
to assure me multiple pellet strikes , there is plenty penetration to be a successful shooter .
3200 man
hunter
 
Posts: 2850
Joined: Thu Nov 12, 2009 10:30 am

Previous

Return to Shotshell, Reloading, Ballistics, & Chokes

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Yahoo [Bot] and 6 guests