Big steel 12ga vs. sub gauge hevi

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Big steel 12ga vs. sub gauge hevi

Postby d_money » Sat Oct 26, 2013 9:02 pm

Ok I don't post much more of a lurker but anyway what do u guys think about compairing 12ga 3" or 3 1/2" BB or BBB shot around 1500 to 20ga hevi goose loads of 2's at 1275. I really want to take my 20ga on my next outing cuz we will be on the X and plan on limiting on ducks and greater honkers I just don't want to be under gunned when the big honkers come in. I don't have any hevi for my 12ga but BB and BBB steel. What do u think I should use. Not concerned with duck loads I will have plenty of time to change out shells before the geese are in and already have my favorite shells for ducks. Factory for the 20ga and my reloads for 12ga. Any help will be appreciated they are 1 1/8 loads of hevi goose for the 20.
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Re: Big steel 12ga vs. sub gauge hevi

Postby hamernhonkers » Sat Oct 26, 2013 9:24 pm

Your hurting yourself by using 2's due to pattern density but you'll be far from under gunned. Even for geese Hevi 4's blow steel bb and BBB out of the water. Better put your load on paper and make sure you can get it to open up a little as hevi tends to pattern tight and if you are getting them in tight over the blocks you may have a mess on your hands. It will more then do the job though. Have fun :thumbsup:
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Re: Big steel 12ga vs. sub gauge hevi

Postby Jim Atlas » Sat Oct 26, 2013 9:26 pm

I think you'll have more pellets with 1-1/4 oz of #BB or 1-1/2 oz of #BBB. so I'd go with which ever shotgun you point and shoot better..
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Re: Big steel 12ga vs. sub gauge hevi

Postby hamernhonkers » Sat Oct 26, 2013 9:41 pm

Jim Atlas wrote:I think you'll have more pellets with 1-1/4 oz of #BB or 1-1/2 oz of #BBB. so I'd go with which ever shotgun you point and shoot better..


1 1/2 oz of BBB is about 92 pellets and Hevi 2 shot at 1 1/8 oz has about 92 pellets in it, so sixes at this point as far as load. You make a great point with the second part of your reply though :beer:
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Re: Big steel 12ga vs. sub gauge hevi

Postby BBK » Sun Oct 27, 2013 6:58 pm

You'll do fine with either gun. If you are on the X, your shots should be around the 40 yard mark and closer. The 2's will have PLENTY of pellets to do the job on a giant. You might need to choke it IC so you are not shooting a rifle at 20 yards though.

If you want to take the 20 then do it, it will do the job and then some. :thumbsup:
Why do I shoot 3.5" for geese? Because they don't make a 4" yet!
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Re: Big steel 12ga vs. sub gauge hevi

Postby SPatrick » Tue Oct 29, 2013 9:59 am

I personally love hevi 2's for geese, but that is out of my 12. Probably cant go wrong with either truthfully.
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Re: Big steel 12ga vs. sub gauge hevi

Postby dakotashooter2 » Tue Oct 29, 2013 3:38 pm

The 20 load with #2s (steel) is fine for geese I've even done pretty well with #4s when decoying. The 20 is all I used last year and what I used a couple times this year. The caveat is I hunt alone and call the shots whick I generally keep under 30 yards. Throwing other hunters in the mix changes things slightly. I have found that even when geese are willing to commit feet down, 12 ga shooters tend to shoot at ranges further than I like to shoot with the 20 ga. For that reason unless they are willing to let me call the shots I won't use the 20 when others are shooting 12s. And it's even worse if they are shooting 3 1/2". I actually shoot my 20 better than my 12 and tend to get more doubles with it, probably due to a quicker recovery time between shots.
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Re: Big steel 12ga vs. sub gauge hevi

Postby RockedEm » Tue Oct 29, 2013 3:58 pm

Before she moved up to a 12ga my daughter whacked more Giant Canadians (I mean the big Ohio ones 10-14lb) with her 20 gauge than I could count. She actually never even used Hevi-shot. It was the hevi-shot "duck"...I have been lead to believe it is lighter. Edited 10/29/13 8:11.

20 gauge 3" 1oz BlackCloud #2 was for the first shot.
20 gauge 3" 1 1/4oz Hevi Shot #2 was for the second, third.

She was shooting a 20ga youth benelli monte with a Carlsons' Light Mod.

Would take a lot of die hard waterfowl hunters with us that were shocked to see Geese folding absolutely dead at 40 yards from a 20 gauge and blood just everywhere on the snow from the 20 gauge shooting the above loads.

I will say the 1 1/4oz Hevi-shot was brutal out of the 5lb benelli...

She now shoots 1 1/8oz out of her 12 and it kicks ALOT LESS (felt recoil).

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Last edited by RockedEm on Tue Oct 29, 2013 6:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Big steel 12ga vs. sub gauge hevi

Postby BBK » Tue Oct 29, 2013 4:36 pm

RockedEm wrote:Before she moved up to a 12ga my daughter whacked more Giant Canadians (I mean the big Ohio ones 10-14lb) with her 20 gauge than I could count. She actually never even used Hevi-shot.

20 gauge 3" 1oz BlackCloud #2 was for the first shot.
20 gauge 3" 1 1/4oz Hevi Shot #2 was for the second, third.

She was shooting a 20ga youth benelli monte with a Carlsons' Light Mod.

Would take a lot of die hard waterfowl hunters with us that were shocked to see Geese folding absolutely dead at 40 yards from a 20 gauge and blood just everywhere on the snow from the 20 gauge shooting the above loads.

I will say the 1 1/4oz Hevi-shot was brutal out of the 5lb benelli...

She now shoots 1 1/8oz out of her 12 and it kicks ALOT LESS (felt recoil).

RockedEm


She never used hevi-shot or she dropped them absolutely dead at 40 yards with the hevi-shot?
Why do I shoot 3.5" for geese? Because they don't make a 4" yet!
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Re: Big steel 12ga vs. sub gauge hevi

Postby RockedEm » Tue Oct 29, 2013 6:21 pm

Accidentally deleted a sentence at the time of writing the reply. Edited above.

I've never understood all the supposed differences in Environmetals product names...shot density and time-frame and meant to be clear it was Hevi-shot Duck...supposedly not the "real" hevi-shot (like goose or coyote).
I never did cut it open to see if it was real Hevi-shot....either way its one of the bigger non-tox loads in 20ga.

Cost wise, it was painful enough to fire one at the pattern board.

I can tell you it rocked big birds at 12 gauge ranges with a 20....but make sure you have a stout 20ga and a stout shoulder.
5lb guns shooting 1 1/4oz are not fun for high volume shooting.

This stuff: http://www.hevishot.com/catalog/index.p ... gory_id=66

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Re: Big steel 12ga vs. sub gauge hevi

Postby lostknife4 » Tue Oct 29, 2013 6:43 pm

Food for thought..

Image
That is 1 oz of TSS #7 or #9 @1350 fps..... Great pattern density, lots of Gel penetration and reduced recoil from MV of 1350 fps !! and all that from a 2-3/4" 28 ga.............
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Re: Big steel 12ga vs. sub gauge hevi

Postby Elvis Kiwi » Wed Oct 30, 2013 1:10 am

why such big shot in .12ga???
steel #2 has been great for me on ducks and giant Canadas, Ive used #BB but found #2 just as good. Im not a barrel stretcher but some of the big birds would be 40-50yards when hit most well under that.
as for original question...which ever gun fits you best and you have enough ammo for...put the other one in a case and leave in the vehicle just in case you change your mind.
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Re: Big steel 12ga vs. sub gauge hevi

Postby Jim Atlas » Wed Oct 30, 2013 4:05 pm

Elvis Kiwi wrote:why such big shot in .12ga???
steel #2 has been great for me on ducks and giant Canadas, Ive used #BB but found #2 just as good. Im not a barrel stretcher but some of the big birds would be 40-50yards when hit most well under that.
as for original question...which ever gun fits you best and you have enough ammo for...put the other one in a case and leave in the vehicle just in case you change your mind.


Elvis, what size shot wold you recommend for combo household appliance load? I usually am going out for washing machines, but a fridge might swing into the decoys too.
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Re: Big steel 12ga vs. sub gauge hevi

Postby Elvis Kiwi » Sat Nov 02, 2013 1:18 pm

definatly #2 steel..either 7/8th or 1 oz going 1550 fps+ but thats out of my crappy old cut up, home ported with black n decker electric drill, rechoked on the gas BBQ ring with a 16oz ballpein hammer, single shot bakail :thumbsup:
If you are using one of these modern plastic fantatic "B" semis you might have to go up in payload to keep up :no:
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Re: Big steel 12ga vs. sub gauge hevi

Postby ksfowler166 » Sat Nov 02, 2013 9:31 pm

Lostknife your going to have to teach me how to post ballistic results like that. For the op here is what I found using the information you and Jim Atlas supplied. All measurements calculated a 32 degrees F, zero feet above sea level, and use 2.25" of gel penetration as a comparison.
Hevi Shot, 1 1/8oz, 1275fps, #2, 91.49 pellets, 73.0 yards
Steel, 1 1/4oz , 1500fps, #BB, 89.48 pellets, 44.9 yards
Steel, 1 1/4oz, 1500fps, #BBB, 76.08 pellets, 52.1 yards
Steel, 1 1/2oz, 1500fps, #BB, 107.37 pellets, 44.9 yards
Steel, 1 1/2OZ, 1500fps, #BBB, 91.29 pellets, 52.1 yards

And for comparison.
Hevi Shot, 1 1/8oz, 1275fps, #4, 140.55 pellets, 49.9 yards

Sub gauge Hevi beats big steel 12ga every time. :thumbsup: It is debatable if the cost benefit is worth it though.
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Re: Big steel 12ga vs. sub gauge hevi

Postby lostknife4 » Sun Nov 03, 2013 3:08 pm

ksfowler166 wrote:Lostknife your going to have to teach me how to post ballistic results like that. For the op here is what I found using the information you and Jim Atlas supplied. All measurements calculated a 32 degrees F, zero feet above sea level, and use 2.25" of gel penetration as a comparison.
Hevi Shot, 1 1/8oz, 1275fps, #2, 91.49 pellets, 73.0 yards
Steel, 1 1/4oz , 1500fps, #BB, 89.48 pellets, 44.9 yards
Steel, 1 1/4oz, 1500fps, #BBB, 76.08 pellets, 52.1 yards
Steel, 1 1/2oz, 1500fps, #BB, 107.37 pellets, 44.9 yards
Steel, 1 1/2OZ, 1500fps, #BBB, 91.29 pellets, 52.1 yards

And for comparison.
Hevi Shot, 1 1/8oz, 1275fps, #4, 140.55 pellets, 49.9 yards

Sub gauge Hevi beats big steel 12ga every time. :thumbsup: It is debatable if the cost benefit is worth it though.


How I do it:
I make the table using KPY or TK!Solver or whatever and when I have it on the screen I do a screen capture pressing the "ALT" and "PRNTSCRYN" buttons simultaneously which captures the screen to memory. Then open the "PAINT" program and "CTRL V" or click "Paste" and lo and behold there is the screen capture.... Then click "Crop" and select the area of your screen capture you want to save and press <enter> then click on the little blue icon on top of the "Paste" icon and the program will ask you the format you want to save etc, I use ".jpg", and then you are asked for a filename and save to location. I have a folder called "transfer" that I put all these things in.
Next I open Photobucket and download the file from "Transfer" to Photobucket and after it is downloaded I click on the "IMG filename" which will change momentarily to "copied", ie it is now in memory. Now go to DHC and just "paste" it into your page. What you will see is the link but if you do a preview of your message it will show the cropped capture as well as your submitted input.
Now all that sounds and looks like a lot of work but really it isn't and after you do it a couple times it's really quite quick.
Lost

If you are having problems with this I could take some time and screen capture each of the steps but it's really quite simple and once you do it a couple times it will be even easier.
Lost
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Re: Big steel 12ga vs. sub gauge hevi

Postby lostknife4 » Tue Nov 05, 2013 5:29 am

And for comparison::::::

Image

1 oz @ 438 and 1-1/8oz @ 492 pellets


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Re: Big steel 12ga vs. sub gauge hevi

Postby mudpack » Tue Nov 05, 2013 8:41 am

Everyone has a story about a big Canada being killed with a 20 ga. Heck, many guys have killed them with .410's.

That said, you'll put the odds in your favor if you shoot the biggest payload you can for geese. That means 12 ga (or 10!).

Not every shot will be at 30 yards; sometimes you'll need to finish off a cripple that is getting away at 45 yards. I would not want to have a 20 in my hands at that time.
I shoot nothing but 20's at pigeons and doves, and love the gage. A pigeon or a dove is not a goose.
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Re: Big steel 12ga vs. sub gauge hevi

Postby lostknife4 » Tue Nov 05, 2013 10:41 am

mudpack wrote:Everyone has a story about a big Canada being killed with a 20 ga. Heck, many guys have killed them with .410's.

That said, you'll put the odds in your favor if you shoot the biggest payload you can for geese. That means 12 ga (or 10!).

Not every shot will be at 30 yards; sometimes you'll need to finish off a cripple that is getting away at 45 yards. I would not want to have a 20 in my hands at that time.
I shoot nothing but 20's at pigeons and doves, and love the gage. A pigeon or a dove is not a goose.


I disagree with the statement above in Blue colour, "biggest payload" should read "highest energy load in a sufficient pattern at the target ranges" and that doesn't necessarily imply a 12 or 10 ga.
The chart above clearly shows the superiority of TSS and it doesn't matter whether it is sent with a Ø.410, a 28 or 16 or 20 or 12 or a 10, it's the energy in the shot in a pattern that will provide the minimum + recommended pellets. TSS has over twice the mass of steel and so you can use small pellet sizes, which increases the pattern density, and still have lots of energy left over when the big steel has lost pattern and energy. The physics has been proven many times over, there is no substitute for the highest mass density pellets.
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Re: Big steel 12ga vs. sub gauge hevi

Postby Theduckguru » Mon Nov 18, 2013 7:38 am

lostknife4 wrote:Food for thought..

Image
That is 1 oz of TSS #7 or #9 @1350 fps..... Great pattern density, lots of Gel penetration and reduced recoil from MV of 1350 fps !! and all that from a 2-3/4" 28 ga.............
Lost


From your chart, what 20ga load has 155 steel #2 pellets?
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Re: Big steel 12ga vs. sub gauge hevi

Postby lostknife4 » Mon Nov 18, 2013 8:02 am

I've never seen a listing and this chart was made for comparisons at 45 yards in various loadings, gauge was used merely as an indicator that it was a different loading rather than a ga specific load.
You are correct and thanks for the constructive criticism.
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Re: Big steel 12ga vs. sub gauge hevi

Postby Windrider » Sun Dec 01, 2013 6:41 pm

I went goose hunting twice with a 20ga and 1ounch of remi HD. Same density as hevishot, but a small load than the factory shells.

Based upon my experience 4s of that density will give you performance of at least 1.25oz of steel BBs.

The fella shooting 3.5" BBB shot had some distance on me and everyone else shooting BBs.
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