The 20 can almost do it all

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Re: The 20 can almost do it all

Postby lostknife4 » Tue Nov 12, 2013 9:22 am

Since this whole topic concludes that it is the pattern density at range with pellets of sufficient energy that kills birds what conclusion do we get on the type, style , gauge, weight of gun that is the best or does it matter?
And what difference in the whole scheme of the sport of bird hunting costs the most? Surely not a few pounds of TSS! Six shots for a legal limit of six birds per day is a pretty small price compared with all the rest of the costs, even 12 shots for six birds.
The pellets do the killing, not your clothes or boots or outboards or deeks or boats or anything else that it seems, according to my wife anyway, that money is no object.
Why not send the best? That is if you can shoot, if you can't then use BS or Hevi-something................. and lots of it!! LOL
Lost
Last edited by lostknife4 on Wed Nov 13, 2013 9:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The 20 can almost do it all

Postby BBK » Tue Nov 12, 2013 9:31 am

lostknife4 wrote:Six shots for a legal limit of six birds per day is a pretty small price compared with all the rest of the costs, even 12 shots for six birds.
Lost


6 x $5= $30 a day in shells
12 x $5= $60 a day in shells

For 6 ducks... yeah that's a pretty small price to pay.
Why do I shoot 3.5" for geese? Because they don't make a 4" yet!
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Re: The 20 can almost do it all

Postby dakotashooter2 » Tue Nov 12, 2013 9:35 am

I guess the point I'm trying to make is that for an accomplished shooter.The advantage a 12 offers over a 20 is significantly minimized. I consider myself a fair shooter at best yet I have come to the point where the 12 ga no longer offers me a significant advantage over the 20 ga. I also have confidence in the 20 ga. If you don't have confidence in what you are shooting it doesn't mater what ga it is you probably won't do well with it. In that aspect with some people the battle is over before it even began. When I first made a committment to th 20 ga it DID NOT perform as well for me as the 12 ga did, but I stuck with it and after a couple seasons I was shooting it on par with the 12.

The thing about wounding loss is that it is very hard to gauge. One can say the 20 wounds more game that the 12 but what real evidence is there to support that? If the birds fly away wounded we really never know.
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Re: The 20 can almost do it all

Postby Jon Bergren » Tue Nov 12, 2013 9:47 am

The 20 will never be able to do what a 12 can do, however I killed many a mallard from a age of 11 to 22 with a SXS 20 which I still have. In a 12 gage of steel with 1 1/16 oz of 1's at 1730 fps will penetrate to kill to 62.2 yds. I killed many Snows out to 60 yds. Don't tell me you can't kill to max penetration distance. I even kill Lessers with 7/8 oz of B's out to 50 yds where I lose pattern density with my extebded mod chokes. I can do the same with 2's. Ned S
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Re: The 20 can almost do it all

Postby John Duck » Tue Nov 12, 2013 1:58 pm

Jon Bergren wrote:The 20 will never be able to do what a 12 can do, however I killed many a mallard from a age of 11 to 22 with a SXS 20 which I still have. In a 12 gage of steel with 1 1/16 oz of 1's at 1730 fps will penetrate to kill to 62.2 yds. I killed many Snows out to 60 yds. Don't tell me you can't kill to max penetration distance. I even kill Lessers with 7/8 oz of B's out to 50 yds where I lose pattern density with my extebded mod chokes. I can do the same with 2's. Ned S


Are you related to Tom Knapp and Annie Oakley???
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Re: The 20 can almost do it all

Postby John Duck » Tue Nov 12, 2013 1:59 pm

Jon Bergren wrote:The 20 will never be able to do what a 12 can do, however I killed many a mallard from a age of 11 to 22 with a SXS 20 which I still have. In a 12 gage of steel with 1 1/16 oz of 1's at 1730 fps will penetrate to kill to 62.2 yds. I killed many Snows out to 60 yds. Don't tell me you can't kill to max penetration distance. I even kill Lessers with 7/8 oz of B's out to 50 yds where I lose pattern density with my extebded mod chokes. I can do the same with 2's. Ned S


That first sentence should be on the cover of Shooters Bible stopping at the word do,
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Re: The 20 can almost do it all

Postby BBK » Tue Nov 12, 2013 2:09 pm

John Duck wrote:
Jon Bergren wrote:The 20 will never be able to do what a 12 can do, however I killed many a mallard from a age of 11 to 22 with a SXS 20 which I still have. In a 12 gage of steel with 1 1/16 oz of 1's at 1730 fps will penetrate to kill to 62.2 yds. I killed many Snows out to 60 yds. Don't tell me you can't kill to max penetration distance. I even kill Lessers with 7/8 oz of B's out to 50 yds where I lose pattern density with my extebded mod chokes. I can do the same with 2's. Ned S


That first sentence should be on the cover of Shooters Bible stopping at the word do,


First or second?
Why do I shoot 3.5" for geese? Because they don't make a 4" yet!
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Re: The 20 can almost do it all

Postby Jon Bergren » Tue Nov 12, 2013 2:52 pm

I'm just a waterfowler that has patterned over 2000 steel loads and know how a 20 and 12 gage performed. I use to load for 20 gage Wingmaster my Pastor Son has. Also have two Chronys to check velocity. I also have around 62 chokes. My hobby was getting the fast fodder to perform and I great patterns with fast steel 1640 to 1860 fps. The shotgun has a lot to do with getting great patterns with the fast fodder. Generally the Italian guns can't pattern steel worth a darn at 1600 fps or faster. My friends shoot the Italian guns and are reloaders. Ned S the young 84 yr old almost 85. Going after ducks in the morning. I fix Dona's breakfast befor I go inclusing coffee. I have to meet my friend at 4:30 North side of Amarillo. Takes 15-20 mins to get there. Dona is a stroke victim and I'm her caretaker.
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Re: The 20 can almost do it all

Postby lostknife4 » Tue Nov 12, 2013 3:19 pm

What is the difference between 1 oz of shot, @ 1500 fps, from a Ø.410 caliber ie 36 ga, a 28 or 20 or 16 or 12 gauge at 35 yards? Providing they have all maximized their pattern densities to be equivalent ie chokes and back boring etc.. It's the same speed at target, the same shot and the same pattern density so is there really any difference?
Lost
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Re: The 20 can almost do it all

Postby UmatillaJeff » Tue Nov 12, 2013 6:21 pm

Lost... You know very well that a one ounce load will pattern better as the gauge gets bigger. What is your point? The bigger the bore the less deformation. This is true even with steel. I suspect it will be the same with your beloved TSS!

P.S The average hunter hovers around 35% success. This was true with lead and is still true with steel.

You TSS is not going to make a magic wing shot out of guys that can't shoot. It's wonderful stuff.. I get it. It's not magic though.

Very few is the hunter that will do any better with TSS. Maybe more dead birds with the birds he hits and that is something, but I remember the lead days and guys shooting two boxes of shells to kill 7 ducks. The same guys take two boxes of shells to kill 7 ducks with steel.

We had guys who shot 20's over the decoys with lead and the guys who could shoot did just fine. The guys who could not shoot just crippled even more birds then they would have with a 12ga and a more forgiving pattern.

I think the whole argument takes on a different tone when you start talking about ability. Guys tell me all the time they are about 50% shooters. I can tell you that damn few is the hunter that can shoot 50%. Jeff
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Re: The 20 can almost do it all

Postby Jon Bergren » Tue Nov 12, 2013 6:45 pm

UmatillaJeff wrote:Lost... You know very well that a one ounce load will pattern better as the gauge gets bigger. What is your point? The bigger the bore the less deformation. This is true even with steel. I suspect it will be the same with your beloved TSS!

P.S The average hunter hovers around 35% success. This was true with lead and is still true with steel.

You TSS is not going to make a magic wing shot out of guys that can't shoot. It's wonderful stuff.. I get it. It's not magic though.

Very few is the hunter that will do any better with TSS. Maybe more dead birds with the birds he hits and that is something, but I remember the lead days and guys shooting two boxes of shells to kill 7 ducks. The same guys take two boxes of shells to kill 7 ducks with steel.

We had guys who shot 20's over the decoys with lead and the guys who could shoot did just fine. The guys who could not shoot just crippled even more birds then they would have with a 12ga and a more forgiving pattern.

I think the whole argument takes on a different tone when you start talking about ability. Guys tell me all the time they are about 50% shooters. I can tell you that damn few is the hunter that can shoot 50%. Jeff


:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :beer: :beer: :beer: Ned S
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Re: The 20 can almost do it all

Postby bubba682 » Tue Nov 12, 2013 7:25 pm

UmatillaJeff wrote:Lost... You know very well that a one ounce load will pattern better as the gauge gets bigger. What is your point? The bigger the bore the less deformation. This is true even with steel. I suspect it will be the same with your beloved TSS!

P.S The average hunter hovers around 35% success. This was true with lead and is still true with steel.

You TSS is not going to make a magic wing shot out of guys that can't shoot. It's wonderful stuff.. I get it. It's not magic though.

Very few is the hunter that will do any better with TSS. Maybe more dead birds with the birds he hits and that is something, but I remember the lead days and guys shooting two boxes of shells to kill 7 ducks. The same guys take two boxes of shells to kill 7 ducks with steel.

We had guys who shot 20's over the decoys with lead and the guys who could shoot did just fine. The guys who could not shoot just crippled even more birds then they would have with a 12ga and a more forgiving pattern.

I think the whole argument takes on a different tone when you start talking about ability. Guys tell me all the time they are about 50% shooters. I can tell you that damn few is the hunter that can shoot 50%. Jeff

Great post Jeff.... :beer:
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Re: The 20 can almost do it all

Postby duckslayer74 » Tue Nov 12, 2013 7:53 pm

cootlover wrote:It took my brother in law about two seasons to get dialed in with a 20 gauge now it's all he uses ya I don't kill every duck stone dead but who does :huh: anyway that's what's the dog for.


It took me one season you putz. It is true its all I use anymore.
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Re: The 20 can almost do it all

Postby goosepit2007 » Tue Nov 12, 2013 8:02 pm

UmatillaJeff wrote:Lost... You know very well that a one ounce load will pattern better as the gauge gets bigger. What is your point? The bigger the bore the less deformation. This is true even with steel. I suspect it will be the same with your beloved TSS!

P.S The average hunter hovers around 35% success. This was true with lead and is still true with steel.

You TSS is not going to make a magic wing shot out of guys that can't shoot. It's wonderful stuff.. I get it. It's not magic though.

Very few is the hunter that will do any better with TSS. Maybe more dead birds with the birds he hits and that is something, but I remember the lead days and guys shooting two boxes of shells to kill 7 ducks. The same guys take two boxes of shells to kill 7 ducks with steel.

We had guys who shot 20's over the decoys with lead and the guys who could shoot did just fine. The guys who could not shoot just crippled even more birds then they would have with a 12ga and a more forgiving pattern.

I think the whole argument takes on a different tone when you start talking about ability. Guys tell me all the time they are about 50% shooters. I can tell you that damn few is the hunter that can shoot 50%. Jeff



jeff, that is so true.....when we have hunters they say that they shoot all kinds of trap ect but when they are shooting (at)birds they sure do put pile of empty's in front of them with hardly anything to show for it. the crippled bird numbers are high with said shooters that say they are 50 percent. when it is just my wife and i it is like a day off, well for me anyways boat/walking with dog to get cripples. there is big differrence, and i am assuming that it is the same way for you . good post....

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Re: The 20 can almost do it all

Postby lostknife4 » Tue Nov 12, 2013 8:14 pm

UmatillaJeff wrote:Lost... You know very well that a one ounce load will pattern better as the gauge gets bigger. What is your point? You should read my post again as I said that " Providing they have all maximized their pattern densities to be equivalent ie chokes and back boring etc.. " My point being that it is the shot within the pattern that hits the bird that kills it not the gun or gauge of gun. The bigger the bore the less deformation. This is true even with steel. I suspect it will be the same with your beloved TSS! I shoot steel and still even some target Lead too!.
I have not observed any deformation of TSS pellets, there wouldn't be any scrubbing through the barrel because the pellets are encased in a plastic shotcup so that leaves setback as the only cause and as hard as they are I do not believe there would be any deformation or very little because of their interaction with one another during setback, at least any pellets I have recovered haven't shown any discernible markings other than those that were/are on the pellets before shooting them as near as can be randomly identified.Fired vertically down from a bridge into water and recovered with a magnet. I still shoot cast rifle/pistol bullets into snowbanks and follow the "wound" channel through the snow to recover the cast bullets.

P.S The average hunter hovers around 35% success. This was true with lead and is still true with steel.

You TSS is not going to make a magic wing shot out of guys that can't shoot. It's wonderful stuff.. I get it. It's not magic though.
I agree with the previous two sentences

Very few is the hunter that will do any better with TSS.Gotta disagree with you on this point, if you have read any of my posts that have KPY charts you will see that TSS at moderate velocities and lighter payloads has more ED and Gel Penetration at longer ranges than steel and since the pellet mass is so high a smaller diameter pellet and a greater quantity will provide much better pattern densities at longer ranges where the pattern densities of the large steel pellets has ceased to be effective. Maybe more dead birds with the birds he hits and that is something, but I remember the lead days and guys shooting two boxes of shells to kill 7 ducks. The same guys take two boxes of shells to kill 7 ducks with steel.We have those same quality hunters here too!!!!!!!!!!!! The birds taken with TSS are a lot easier on the teeth since pretty well all the shot has gone straight through the bird, again no apparent pellet deformation, at least from any TSS pellets I have recovered, certainly not like lead pellets!

We had guys who shot 20's over the decoys with lead and the guys who could shoot did just fine. The guys who could not shoot just crippled even more birds then they would have with a 12ga and a more forgiving pattern. Practice and more practice, along with visits to the patterning board, with some knowledgeable shooter giving constructive criticism and proper gun fit will do wonders for most people

I think the whole argument takes on a different tone when you start talking about ability. Guys tell me all the time they are about 50% shooters. I can tell you that damn few is the hunter that can shoot 50%. Jeff
Most of their inability stems from lack of practice and field experience, patience being paramount here, and a good grasp on internal and external ballistic theory IMHO. It takes a lot of training to become very proficient in any venue however my point in this posting was that given a level playing field with all else being equal it's still the shot in a sufficient pattern that kills the birds, not the gun or any of those other factors.

Lost
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Re: The 20 can almost do it all

Postby Jon Bergren » Tue Nov 12, 2013 9:27 pm

The load, gun, choke tube all affect the pattern density. I shoot the 20 gage loads in my 12 gages very fast and control the patterns. Ned S
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Re: The 20 can almost do it all

Postby UmatillaJeff » Tue Nov 12, 2013 9:28 pm

Lost.. I don't think we disagree all that much.

I am just saying that at some point you need to be able to shoot. I have seen guys shoot trap loads at ducks and miss more then they hit by far. That is a pattern that is stupid dense and the fools still couldn't hit them and this was the super load that they showed up with!

We guided tons of fools that thought 7 1/2's were the medicine for shooting ducks over the decoys. I have seen guys with dense full patterns not even cripple at 30 yards. All season long Lost!

If TSS were cheap it would help guys who can shoot. I still can't see how it will help the average shooter.

If I didn't guide... I would shoot lead shot. Once in a while get caught and pay the ticket. Far cheaper then shooting even Hevi shot. I would have got two tickets in the last 25 years. That isn't squat compared to the price of TSS or Hevi..

I have no intention of running for public office so the ticket wouldn't be a bid deal and the cost of them isn't nearly as high as everybody thinks they are. Had a guy get caught a few years ago. It was 151 dollar ticket. Granted he just had some in his vest by accident and wasn't using it but were it not for the guiding?


Screw all of it.

I would shoot 1 1/4 of lead 4's in a 12ga and two ounces of BB's in a 10ga! Jeff
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Re: The 20 can almost do it all

Postby John Duck » Tue Nov 12, 2013 11:55 pm

UmatillaJeff wrote:Lost.. I don't think we disagree all that much.

I am just saying that at some point you need to be able to shoot. I have seen guys shoot trap loads at ducks and miss more then they hit by far. That is a pattern that is stupid dense and the fools still couldn't hit them and this was the super load that they showed up with!

We guided tons of fools that thought 7 1/2's were the medicine for shooting ducks over the decoys. I have seen guys with dense full patterns not even cripple at 30 yards. All season long Lost!

If TSS were cheap it would help guys who can shoot. I still can't see how it will help the average shooter.

If I didn't guide... I would shoot lead shot. Once in a while get caught and pay the ticket. Far cheaper then shooting even Hevi shot. I would have got two tickets in the last 25 years. That isn't squat compared to the price of TSS or Hevi..

I have no intention of running for public office so the ticket wouldn't be a bid deal and the cost of them isn't nearly as high as everybody thinks they are. Had a guy get caught a few years ago. It was 151 dollar ticket. Granted he just had some in his vest by accident and wasn't using it but were it not for the guiding?


Screw all of it.

I would shoot 1 1/4 of lead 4's in a 12ga and two ounces of BB's in a 10ga! Jeff


Jeff, You are an officer and a gentleman ! And SPOT ON!!!!
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Re: The 20 can almost do it all

Postby solway gunner » Wed Nov 13, 2013 4:37 am

UmatillaJeff wrote:[b]Lost... You know very well that a one ounce load will pattern better as the gauge gets bigger. [/b]What is your point? The bigger the bore the less deformation. This is true even with steel. I suspect it will be the same with your beloved TSS!

P.S The average hunter hovers around 35% success. This was true with lead and is still true with steel.

You TSS is not going to make a magic wing shot out of guys that can't shoot. It's wonderful stuff.. I get it. It's not magic though.

Very few is the hunter that will do any better with TSS. Maybe more dead birds with the birds he hits and that is something, but I remember the lead days and guys shooting two boxes of shells to kill 7 ducks. The same guys take two boxes of shells to kill 7 ducks with steel.

We had guys who shot 20's over the decoys with lead and the guys who could shoot did just fine. The guys who could not shoot just crippled even more birds then they would have with a 12ga and a more forgiving pattern.

I think the whole argument takes on a different tone when you start talking about ability. Guys tell me all the time they are about 50% shooters. I can tell you that damn few is the hunter that can shoot 50%. Jeff


great post that no one can disagree with.i reckoned on a general average of 6:1when i guided in the so called "magical"days of lead.., i see nothing now that makes me want to change my mind in fact sometimes worse.
out of a party of 7 men one could shoot straight for approx 2:1 therafter shooting skills always degenerated,for varying reasons.
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Re: The 20 can almost do it all

Postby 3200 man » Wed Nov 13, 2013 5:37 am

Jeff good post ! There are times when hunters of ventage re-vert back to the good old days , I for one , while hunting
Big geese . As we look back at using loads of the past and remember how effective they were , how can one not give it a
go Again ? I don't do this while hunting with friends but , there are times while hunting alone for big birds the oldtime
buffer just begs to be used .I don't use these over water but , in the field pass shooting , it's the cats meow if you can
remember the forward allowance at long range , which takes practice . It's amazing how this comes back to someone
that has reloaded / shot these's for years .

Just practice-ing Old Habits with my inventory of large old nickel shot .
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Re: The 20 can almost do it all

Postby lostknife4 » Wed Nov 13, 2013 7:47 am

I hear ya 3200 but if we are caught with Lead then we not only are fined but lose our hunting privileges for quite some time so it's really not worth the chance in our case.

I agree with all that has been said above, generally, about hunters competency but my original question was more about what kills a duck, the shot OR the gauge, gun manufacturer, etc.. My point was that even the cheapest possible equipment and ammo, if it will pattern well at range, with sufficient energy, will be just as good a killer as the most magnumized ammo from the ridiculously expensive shooting gear. Most of us agree that there are some minimum parameters for velocity and pattern density at range is required for consistency in bagging game but given that, does it really matter what gun and gauge is used to accomplish it?
I have proven to myself and some others that TSS has better pattern density and energy retention in the field and in theory and on the patterning board at longer ranges than even lettered steel so I stand by my original statement that TSS is a better choice.

Lost
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Re: The 20 can almost do it all

Postby rainingmallards » Wed Nov 13, 2013 8:32 am

When I take people hunting that DON'T waterfowl hunt often, I see them simply shooting at birds
that are TOO FAR. I am not sure if they are excited or that they simply cannot estimate the distance.
They are sitting in a sunken blind and see the birds and THEY LOOK CLOSER but once they raise
up the birds are simply further out than they thought
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Re: The 20 can almost do it all

Postby lostknife4 » Wed Nov 13, 2013 9:04 am

Let's try it this way:
If you are given a pattern sheet with the distance shown as 35 yards, the size and quantity of shot pellets in this acceptable pattern and the muzzle velocity, can you identify the gauge of the gun that produced this pattern?
Lost
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Re: The 20 can almost do it all

Postby cootlover » Wed Nov 13, 2013 11:22 am

:yes:
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Re: The 20 can almost do it all

Postby solway gunner » Wed Nov 13, 2013 11:37 am

A bit like being given a look at velocity print out from that measures 1200fps and then being asked to guess what gauge shot it ..
seriously what gauge are you talking about? .410?16ga? 12ga? 8ga? 4ga etc ,how the hell could the experiment be conducted as the working payloads differ and couldnt be compared anyway!!
inevatbly as ever,this is leading to is TSS 9s being capable of knocking out a M1 Abrams tank at 100.7 yrds through a cylinder bored 3" .410
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