The 20 can almost do it all

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Re: The 20 can almost do it all

Postby aunt betty » Mon Nov 04, 2013 8:41 pm

True. I killed honkers with a 20 gauge. It was all I had.

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Re: The 20 can almost do it all

Postby hamernhonkers » Mon Nov 04, 2013 8:48 pm

dakotashooter2 wrote:An hours work with the 20 ga. Would have taken 15 minutes if my eyes could tell drakes from hens further than 15 yards out...............................


Dakota you full of ship! No way a 20 killed those birds.
























Nice work!

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Re: The 20 can almost do it all

Postby John Duck » Mon Nov 04, 2013 10:10 pm

BBK wrote:Ignore him, he's a troll.

The 20 is perfectly capable of taking any bird within 40 yards, from a dove to a swan... if you are skilled enough to put the pattern on the bird.


We can be sure that is NOT you, the only birds you try to kill are ones on this board. LOLOLO
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Re: The 20 can almost do it all

Postby Bull Can » Mon Nov 04, 2013 10:34 pm

I guess some people just can't handle a 12 gauge..... :lol3:
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Re: The 20 can almost do it all

Postby hamernhonkers » Mon Nov 04, 2013 11:57 pm

Bull Can wrote:I guess some people just can't handle a 12 gauge..... :lol3:


And the one's who shoot 12's can't handle the big bore 10....bunch of sissy's!

:lol3:


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Re: The 20 can almost do it all

Postby mudpack » Tue Nov 05, 2013 8:56 am

dakotashooter2 wrote:An hours work with the 20 ga. Would have taken 15 minutes if my eyes could tell drakes from hens further than 15 yards out...............................


Yes, a 20 can easily kill ducks and geese at 15-20 yards. No one is disputing that. It can kill waterfowl at 30 yards 98% as well as a larger gage. After about 35 yards, its effectiveness drops off precipitously. A gun shooting a 1 1/4oz or a 1 3/8oz payload has a significantly enhanced range over the little 20....all else being equal (shot size, choke, etc.)

There are situations where a 20 is deadly lethal. A 12 is deadly lethal in those same situations. Then, there are situations where a 20 is a crippler and a heavy payload out of a 12 or 10 is still deadly lethal. That's why I shoot a 12 at waterfowl.

EDIT: One more thing: I just checked a popular ammo website and got this:

20 ga. 3" 1oz 1330fps is $120 a case
12 ga. 2 3/4" 1 1/4oz. 1275fps is $100 a case.

More effective load (25% higher pattern density), an insignificant 55fps difference, for $2 a box less. Man, am I smart or what? :bow:
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Re: The 20 can almost do it all

Postby Cold » Tue Nov 05, 2013 9:33 am

A gun shooting a 1 1/4oz or a 1 3/8oz payload has a significantly enhanced range over the little 20....all else being equal (shot size, choke, etc.)


I'm not at all doubting this. In fact, it makes sense intuitively.

But can you explain this in terms of physics? When I try to explain to myself why this makes sense, I keep coming to the point where jumping from 20 to 12 increases the number of shot pellets...and with all else being equal, at the same velocity, there's nothing in the equation that should effect reduction of velocity over distance.

Again, on the surface, I completely agree with this...but other than the anecdotal/circumstantial evidence of more birds down with a 12 than with a 20 (which could easily be explained by having a few more pellets in the pattern as opposed to any distance-related advantage), I'm not sure I can objectively show that a 12 shoots farther than a 20.
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Re: The 20 can almost do it all

Postby mudpack » Tue Nov 05, 2013 10:39 am

Cold wrote: I keep coming to the point where jumping from 20 to 12 increases the number of shot pellets...and with all else being equal, at the same velocity, there's nothing in the equation that should effect reduction of velocity over distance.

Again, on the surface, I completely agree with this...but other than the anecdotal/circumstantial evidence of more birds down with a 12 than with a 20 (which could easily be explained by having a few more pellets in the pattern as opposed to any distance-related advantage), I'm not sure I can objectively show that a 12 shoots farther than a 20.



It will make sense only when you realize that the maximum range of a shotgun is not determined by pellet velocity (these are not rifles), but by pattern density. When the pattern loses pellets to the point where it cannot reliably place at least 5 pellets in a bird, that is the maximum range of that load. The pellets will still have more-than-sufficient velocity to penetrate adequately, but not enough pellets will be placed on the bird to ensure at least one reaches a vital organ, statistically speaking.

A large payload (12ga) will not shoot any faster or slower than a small payload (20) and it doesn't matter, but the larger payload will maintain an effectively-dense pattern further out. That's why a 12 is generally a longer-range gun than a 20...no other reason.

Another way of looking at this is: the increased number of shot in the pattern of a 12 means there is a better chance of one of those pellets finding a vital and bringing the bird down, at any range. This is NOT a gauge-dependant thing, it is a payload-dependant thing. I.e. a 1 oz. load of steel out of a 20 ga will be a longer-range/more effective deal than a 7/8 oz. load from a 12, all else being equal.
You cannot buy a waterfowl load that is so slow that velocity is the limiting factor in range/effectiveness. Pattern density is virtually always lost before adequate penetration is lost; pattern density is the limiting factor every time. Hope this helps.
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Re: The 20 can almost do it all

Postby Cold » Tue Nov 05, 2013 12:26 pm

That was a ton of help, thanks so much!

Your first sentence, along with this:

A large payload (12ga) will not shoot any faster or slower than a small payload (20) and it doesn't matter, but the larger payload will maintain an effectively-dense pattern further out. That's why a 12 is generally a longer-range gun than a 20...no other reason.

Another way of looking at this is: the increased number of shot in the pattern of a 12 means there is a better chance of one of those pellets finding a vital and bringing the bird down, at any range.


...made it clear. My trouble was coming from the false understanding that velocity was the limiting factor in the equation.

Now taking this information and fussing with the other variables a bit, could you also say that choking a 20 a bit fuller could give you the range of an equivalent 12 ga load, at the expense of pattern size overall?
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Re: The 20 can almost do it all

Postby solway gunner » Tue Nov 05, 2013 1:53 pm

you mean like a full choke 20ga v cylinder 12ga both shooting identical payloads at 35/ 40strides?

id take the squirrel gun .lets ask HH - what about it jesse? ..squirrel or bushwacker choked 12ga? :biggrin:
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Re: The 20 can almost do it all

Postby dakotashooter2 » Tue Nov 05, 2013 2:30 pm

The 10 and 12 ga are for those guys that can't get em close enough to shoot with the 20........................LOL..............


I'm not arguing the point that a 12 has much better pattern density at longer ranges. Obviously it does and has that advantage over the 20 at longer ranges. I hunt with the 20 and use it within it's limitations and do very well with it. On many occassions that may mean it takes me 3 hrs to get a limit instead of 1hr. But I'm OK with that and actually enjoy that a bit more. I can't argue that using the 20 ga takes some adaptive measures to be as successfull as with the 12. Most likely those using a 20 will be more patient and far more selective of their shots and as such we may miss a few opportunities. I know I have become a better shooter since I started using the 20 ga.
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Re: The 20 can almost do it all

Postby mudpack » Tue Nov 05, 2013 4:17 pm

Cold wrote:
A large payload (12ga) will not shoot any faster or slower than a small payload (20) and it doesn't matter, but the larger payload will maintain an effectively-dense pattern further out. That's why a 12 is generally a longer-range gun than a 20...no other reason.

Another way of looking at this is: the increased number of shot in the pattern of a 12 means there is a better chance of one of those pellets finding a vital and bringing the bird down, at any range.


...made it clear. My trouble was coming from the false understanding that velocity was the limiting factor in the equation.

Now taking this information and fussing with the other variables a bit, could you also say that choking a 20 a bit fuller could give you the range of an equivalent 12 ga load, at the expense of pattern size overall?



I should have said "A large payload's muzzle velocity, compared to a smaller payload's MV is not important." Because, generally speaking, a larger payload's MV will be less than a smaller payload's MV, coming from the same gun.

Now, as to the choking effect. You are correct! You could choke down the 20ga to give you an equivalent pattern density (to the 12's), but it will give you a smaller effective pattern than the 12's. Second, if you choke down the 12 to the same degree as you have the 20, the 12 again has the advantage in range. As I have said, anything you can do with a 20, you can do with a 12. The reverse is not true.
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Re: The 20 can almost do it all

Postby Yuchi1 » Tue Nov 05, 2013 6:12 pm

Payload as the primary factor in determining overall lethality of a gauge/load will logically lead to the conclusion the 10 gauge is therefore the ideal choice and all others are the sub-gauges.

:beer:
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Re: The 20 can almost do it all

Postby cootlover » Tue Nov 05, 2013 7:44 pm

I wish lead was still legal all I would shoot is one of my 28 ga they flat out kick azz. I just love out shooting guy's with there 12 bores with my little 28 ga.
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Re: The 20 can almost do it all

Postby UmatillaJeff » Tue Nov 05, 2013 7:59 pm

the closer the birds are the more a 20ga can do it all! I watch guys wound decoyed ducks all season with everything from a 20ga to a 10ga and you are going to tell me that you can kill 100% of all birds to 40 yards with a 7/8 oz load of steel 2's!

That is straight horseshit. Talk to me after you have killed 5,000 ducks at 40 yards with that load and make that same asinine statement.

Yea.... A 20ga with the magic load of 2's is the medicine. What a joke.

It woks so well that guys pay 40 bucks for 10 rounds of superior metals that kill ducks over the decoys because steel is so ineffective!

I guess what all those guys who shoot hevi shot and the like need to know is steel 2's in a 20ga!

It would be funny if people who don't know any better didn't read this drivel.
Count all the times you shoot a bird on the water. This will teach you about how effective the shells you think are so great are.
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Re: The 20 can almost do it all

Postby hamernhonkers » Tue Nov 05, 2013 9:29 pm

UmatillaJeff wrote:I watch guys wound decoyed ducks all season with everything from a 20ga to a 10ga and you are going to tell me that you can kill 100% of all birds to 40 yards with a 7/8 oz load of steel 2's!



You mean to tell us that people wound ducks over decoy's with a 10 bore :huh: :huh: :huh: How can they do that with such a large payload of shot???

So is it the Bow or the Indian then Jeff?
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Re: The 20 can almost do it all

Postby BBK » Tue Nov 05, 2013 9:30 pm

hamernhonkers wrote:
UmatillaJeff wrote:I watch guys wound decoyed ducks all season with everything from a 20ga to a 10ga and you are going to tell me that you can kill 100% of all birds to 40 yards with a 7/8 oz load of steel 2's!



You mean to tell us that people wound ducks over decoy's with a 10 bore :huh: :huh: :huh: How can they do that with such a large payload of shot???

So is it the Bow or the Indian then Jeff?


Its most definitely the arrow. :wink:
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Re: The 20 can almost do it all

Postby hamernhonkers » Tue Nov 05, 2013 9:32 pm

Yuchi1 wrote:Payload as the primary factor in determining overall lethality of a gauge/load will logically lead to the conclusion the 10 gauge is therefore the ideal choice and all others are the sub-gauges.

:beer:



Actually Yachi would not the 10 be a sub-gauge to the 8 and the 8 a sub-gauge compared to the 4, etc. etc. etc. :eek: :lol3: :lol3: :lol3:

I really want a punt gun, then I would show everyone how not to miss :beer:
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Re: The 20 can almost do it all

Postby hamernhonkers » Tue Nov 05, 2013 9:33 pm

solway gunner wrote:you mean like a full choke 20ga v cylinder 12ga both shooting identical payloads at 35/ 40strides?

id take the squirrel gun .lets ask HH - what about it jesse? ..squirrel or bushwacker choked 12ga? :biggrin:



You know me brother, hand me the 20 :thumbsup: :beer:
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Re: The 20 can almost do it all

Postby hamernhonkers » Tue Nov 05, 2013 9:35 pm

BBK wrote:
hamernhonkers wrote:
UmatillaJeff wrote:I watch guys wound decoyed ducks all season with everything from a 20ga to a 10ga and you are going to tell me that you can kill 100% of all birds to 40 yards with a 7/8 oz load of steel 2's!



You mean to tell us that people wound ducks over decoy's with a 10 bore :huh: :huh: :huh: How can they do that with such a large payload of shot???

So is it the Bow or the Indian then Jeff?


Its most definitely the arrow. :wink:


Dabgum BK were not shooting arrows man :tongue: :tongue: :lol3:
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Re: The 20 can almost do it all

Postby Yuchi1 » Tue Nov 05, 2013 10:25 pm

hamernhonkers wrote:
Yuchi1 wrote:Payload as the primary factor in determining overall lethality of a gauge/load will logically lead to the conclusion the 10 gauge is therefore the ideal choice and all others are the sub-gauges.

:beer:



Actually Yachi would not the 10 be a sub-gauge to the 8 and the 8 a sub-gauge compared to the 4, etc. etc. etc. :eek: :lol3: :lol3: :lol3:

I really want a punt gun, then I would show everyone how not to miss :beer:


The 10 is our max legal gauge therefore, it's the King.
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Re: The 20 can almost do it all

Postby UmatillaJeff » Tue Nov 05, 2013 10:43 pm

I mean it's horrible advice as a general rule.



You want to shoot a bird with a small bore?
Fine... Just don't try and pass it off as the second coming of Christ to those of us who know better. The resource deserves far better then people who think they are sportsman because they go out under gunned and wound far more then they kill.

I've guided a a pile of misguided people who thought a small bore was more sporty when they didn't possess he ability or the know how to properly use the gun but they were the true sportsman.

A true sportsman uses enough gun. I just hope you stop when you have killed and wounded your limit for the day. Most of the sportsman I have been exposed to did not.

They just went on being sporty and wounded a bunch more birds in an effort to collect a sporty limit.

Most guys can't kill ducks dead at 40 yards with any gun and load combo. I just think it's horrible advice. Jeff
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Re: The 20 can almost do it all

Postby wingseeker » Wed Nov 06, 2013 6:15 am

I cannot wait to shoot my new Franchi 20 gauge at wood ducks this winter. I am going to use
Hevimetal 3" shells and give them a big surprise when they are flying through the timber :lol3:
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Re: The 20 can almost do it all

Postby dakotashooter2 » Wed Nov 06, 2013 9:50 am

UmatillaJeff wrote:I mean it's horrible advice as a general rule.



You want to shoot a bird with a small bore?
Fine... Just don't try and pass it off as the second coming of Christ to those of us who know better. The resource deserves far better then people who think they are sportsman because they go out under gunned and wound far more then they kill.

I've guided a a pile of misguided people who thought a small bore was more sporty when they didn't possess he ability or the know how to properly use the gun but they were the true sportsman.

A true sportsman uses enough gun. I just hope you stop when you have killed and wounded your limit for the day. Most of the sportsman I have been exposed to did not.

They just went on being sporty and wounded a bunch more birds in an effort to collect a sporty limit.

Most guys can't kill ducks dead at 40 yards with any gun and load combo. I just think it's horrible advice. Jeff



I can make the same claim toward the 12 ga. How many 12 ga shooters are trying to take birds at or beyond the guns practical limits and are wounding birds. A lot more than you think. Since the average 12 ga shooter is going to feel more comfortable taking long shots than the 20 ga shooter I might suggest that the 12 ga shooters might be wounding more birds (%) than the 20 ga shooters. Taking the gauge/payload size out of the equation, as the range extends so does the margin of error for the shooter. That means that for the average shooter they are going to accurately hit a higher percentage of short to medium range shost than long ones, regardless of gauge. All us 20 ga shooters are doing is telling others that within it's limits the 20 is fully capable. If John C Hunter can't get the birds within 30-35 yards or closer then he probably shouldn't be shooting the 20 ga. If he feels the need to shoot at every bird within sight he probably shouldn't shoot the 20 ga. The truth is that a majority of shooters probably hit birds with the fringe of their pattern THAT is why the 12 has an advantage over the 20. For those shooters that are skilled enough to "dead center" birds in their pattern at any range (I'm not one of those), the 12 has no significant advantage.

Also note that in all gauges there is a learning curve. A hunter that starts out shooting the 12 needs to learn his limitations as much as someone shooting the 20 ga. When switching from 12 to 20 most shooters will never give the gun a chance. They will try it once, maybe twice and declare it a failure never allowing themselves ample time to learn the guns capabilities. For that, one has to dedicate themselves to the gun for at least one season. Then you will learn it's true capabilities. No, it still won't be a 12 ga.......... but not everyone NEEDS a 12 ga...............

My first waterfowl gun was a single shot 410. After a couple of years I had pretty good success with it on ducks. When I upgraded to the 20 my success stayed about the same I just extended my range and same with my jump to 12 ga.
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Re: The 20 can almost do it all

Postby hawglips » Wed Nov 06, 2013 1:37 pm

BBK wrote:Ignore him, he's a troll.

The 20 is perfectly capable of taking any bird within 40 yards, from a dove to a swan... if you are skilled enough to put the pattern on the bird.


The 20 loaded with high quality shot will out-gun a 12 or 10 gauge loaded with the cheap stuff.
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