The 20 can almost do it all

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Re: The 20 can almost do it all

Postby lostknife4 » Wed Nov 06, 2013 5:26 pm

hawglips wrote:
BBK wrote:Ignore him, he's a troll.

The 20 is perfectly capable of taking any bird within 40 yards, from a dove to a swan... if you are skilled enough to put the pattern on the bird.


The 20 loaded with high quality shot will out-gun a 12 or 10 gauge loaded with the cheap stuff.


I've been telling them this for a long time about the 28 ga Hal but no one is listening.....
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"It's not the game but the chase ~ not the trophy but the race !" from my Dad, many years ago.
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Re: The 20 can almost do it all

Postby solway gunner » Wed Nov 06, 2013 6:04 pm

:lol3: no wonder ..so now its 28ga outshoots 12ga and 10ga...stop it please..

HH look what youve started :yes:

hawglips wrote:
The 20 loaded with high quality shot will out-gun a 12 or 10 gauge loaded with the cheap stuff.


:eek: this is getting silly now..
cheap stuff? what exactly do you mean by cheap stuff?
:lol3:
TSS BS reaches an all time high !!
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Re: The 20 can almost do it all

Postby lostknife4 » Wed Nov 06, 2013 7:22 pm

Awwww Kevin you have never tried TSS so how can you be objective, entertaining absolutely, but objective no.

Using Steel shot it's generally accepted that it isn't as good as the heavier Lead that we all have such fond memories of and the industry has tried to replicate that brand (Lead) and has done quite well in some cases but if the gauge of the gun was the "killing" factor instead of the pellet then why isn't everyone shooting a 10 ga for everything????? Why? Because it's not the gauge of the gun that kills birds it's the shot that's why and what is the difference between the same type, size and weight of a pellet at range coming from a 10 or a 410? There isn't any difference!
That being said then, since it's the pellet that kills with a pattern density sufficient to cover the bird with a given amount of pellets at range then the only other variables are velocity and mass. Hey this is where the TSS comes in if anyone is reading this.
Since it has been alleged and perhaps proven that higher velocity helps with the lighter Steel pellets it has been proven that the higher mass TSS exceeds energy and Gel penetration with orders of magnitude more pellet quantity for the same mass loadings in all sizes of Steel or Lead too for that matter.
SO: if we need pattern density and ED and Gel penetration there is only one shot on the market that will give us everything and it's TSS. Before you go off talking about 3-1/2" Super Magnum 10 or 12 with 1-1/2 oz of Steel just use your KPY and plug in 1 oz of TSS in a 2-3/4" hull @ 1350 fps and study the results then do as I have and take it to the field and see the proof.
You owe it to the game to send the very best!
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PS: My battery consists of 10 and 12 and 20 and 28 ga shotguns. I still have a bunch of 10 ga paper cases that I started out reloading over 52 years ago so I am no novice to the sport. I don't shoot factory ammo at birds and haven't for a very long time, the exception being for a year or two when we were legislated into using steel shot. I get just as much game using 2-3/4" ammo as I always have the exception being the 10 which I use 3-1/2" and 2-7/8".
"It's not the game but the chase ~ not the trophy but the race !" from my Dad, many years ago.
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Re: The 20 can almost do it all

Postby blackened89 » Wed Nov 06, 2013 7:36 pm

So the 10 gauge is not more effective than a 20 gauge?
Just kidding, if I had the cash I'd shoot the rich shells too.
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Re: The 20 can almost do it all

Postby hamernhonkers » Wed Nov 06, 2013 7:44 pm

UmatillaJeff wrote:I mean it's horrible advice as a general rule.



You want to shoot a bird with a small bore?
Fine... Just don't try and pass it off as the second coming of Christ to those of us who know better. The resource deserves far better then people who think they are sportsman because they go out under gunned and wound far more then they kill.

I've guided a a pile of misguided people who thought a small bore was more sporty when they didn't possess he ability or the know how to properly use the gun but they were the true sportsman.

A true sportsman uses enough gun. I just hope you stop when you have killed and wounded your limit for the day. Most of the sportsman I have been exposed to did not.

They just went on being sporty and wounded a bunch more birds in an effort to collect a sporty limit.

Most guys can't kill ducks dead at 40 yards with any gun and load combo. I just think it's horrible advice. Jeff


Jeff do you recognize the gun in these pics??


Image
Image
Image
Image
Image

That gun with the 26" barrel has killed thousands of geese and ducks and like you up until 7 or so years ago it was the only gun I would use for geese and 90% of my duck shooting. I thought I had to use it to put the biggest payload I could out there to kill birds. One day I saw a sweet little 20 bore and even though I had never had any desire to own one I thought why not. I spent the summer shooting clay's and starlings with it then moved it onto sage hens, pine hens, doves etc. and realized that the 20 actually was a very effective little killer. I thought why not give it a go on ducks......well to my surprise I did very well with it. Before I knew it had 8 20 bores and unless I was specifically targeting long range geese the 20 became my gauge of choice for ducks/geese. The funny part is my kill rate did not go down from using the 10 or the 12 for duck/goose hunting.........in fact due to the need to use it with in its effective range my kill to shell ratio actually went up slightly.

Jeff I like you in the fact that you remind me of me back in the day. I was all about using biggest payload of shot/shot size to ensure I was making the most ethical kill I could. Well as the years have gone by I have realized that I didn't need the largest payload I could get to ensure a clean ethical kill, I just needed to be diligent in doing my part to ensure that I used my equipment and my skills with-in their limitations.

I know that I can break out my 10 bore and 9 shots out of 10 on a rising mallard or goose at 60 yards I can put it right back down, I know that with my 20 and a good old plain load of steel I can not make that shot ever, but if its a mallard at 40 yards.......9 times out of 10 I will put it right back down. I know the limitations of myself and my loads just as you know yours with the 10.

I think you are making a good argument but you are making it towards the wrong part of the equation, its not the gun that's not doing its part it is the person behind the trigger :thumbsup:
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Re: The 20 can almost do it all

Postby hamernhonkers » Wed Nov 06, 2013 7:45 pm

Yuchi1 wrote:
hamernhonkers wrote:
Yuchi1 wrote:Payload as the primary factor in determining overall lethality of a gauge/load will logically lead to the conclusion the 10 gauge is therefore the ideal choice and all others are the sub-gauges.

:beer:



Actually Yachi would not the 10 be a sub-gauge to the 8 and the 8 a sub-gauge compared to the 4, etc. etc. etc. :eek: :lol3: :lol3: :lol3:

I really want a punt gun, then I would show everyone how not to miss :beer:


The 10 is our max legal gauge therefore, it's the King.



Who brought legal into this :huh: :tongue:
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Re: The 20 can almost do it all

Postby hamernhonkers » Wed Nov 06, 2013 7:47 pm

solway gunner wrote:
HH look what youve started :yes:




And you love it :grooving: :grooving: :grooving:
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Re: The 20 can almost do it all

Postby lostknife4 » Wed Nov 06, 2013 7:52 pm

blackened89 wrote:So the 10 gauge is not more effective than a 20 gauge?
Just kidding, if I had the cash I'd shoot the rich shells too.


Having quite a number of years to accumulate all the gear to hunt is a big help for the budget for the current hunting season purchases along with that a reluctance to move to a different area since my chosen haunts have severely depleted numbers of birds means I only get a few shots at a limited number of birds now where in years past the sky looked like the pictures of flocks on the main flyways.
Along with picking my shots I get as much enjoyment almost as much as I did when I limited out in the first 15 min of the days shooting years ago, now it takes all day and some times i don't get my limit but I enjoy it just the same. I don't consider them being "rich shells" just added insurance that whatever I shoot at, when I shoot at it, is coming down! Same reason I shoot Nosler Partitions.
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Re: The 20 can almost do it all

Postby pedro13 » Wed Nov 06, 2013 8:00 pm

I have shot the 20 for two seasons now. Never once have I felt under gunned. Last year I used all factory loads. This year I loaded up two different steel loads and one steel x TSS load. 35 yards and under, steel is adequate. Any further than that...hw13, hw15, or TSS. Like a few said before me properly loaded with heavy fodder a 20 gauge will outperform 10 & 12 loaded with steel. I am debating on getting another 20 for a back up shotgun. I also like small shot on big geese in the dekes. Like shooting clays when going for head shots.
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Re: The 20 can almost do it all

Postby blackened89 » Wed Nov 06, 2013 8:16 pm

lostknife4 wrote:
blackened89 wrote:So the 10 gauge is not more effective than a 20 gauge?
Just kidding, if I had the cash I'd shoot the rich shells too.


Having quite a number of years to accumulate all the gear to hunt is a big help for the budget for the current hunting season purchases along with that a reluctance to move to a different area since my chosen haunts have severely depleted numbers of birds means I only get a few shots at a limited number of birds now where in years past the sky looked like the pictures of flocks on the main flyways.
Along with picking my shots I get as much enjoyment almost as much as I did when I limited out in the first 15 min of the days shooting years ago, now it takes all day and some times i don't get my limit but I enjoy it just the same. I don't consider them being "rich shells" just added insurance that whatever I shoot at, when I shoot at it, is coming down! Same reason I shoot Nosler Partitions.
Lost


I can get on board with that.
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Re: The 20 can almost do it all

Postby cootlover » Wed Nov 06, 2013 9:01 pm

H.H haters will be haters :bow:
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Re: The 20 can almost do it all

Postby dakotashooter2 » Thu Nov 07, 2013 10:33 am

I think the bottom line is the reason the 12 ga often seems to perform better that the 20 is it does more to compensate for shooter error. The difference in patterns between my 12 and 20 is usually density in the fringe. Often my pattern densities in the core (20") are very similar out to 40 yards and sometimes further. IF..... I can consistently keep my targets in the core area the 12 ga has no significant advantage.

12 ga (and 10 ga) guns are part of a vicious cycle and I have been through it. We start out shooting a smaller ga and learn to shoot very well with it but become unhappy because we feel it is limiting us. So we get a 12 ga. At first our success goes up because we often initially shoot it with the same limitation we used for the smaller bore but it compensates for some of our shooting errors. In our minds it becomes a "better "gun. As we gain confidence we start to stretch out our shooting range and often get sloppy in our methods and technique. As we push the limits of the gun, success drops off slightly, so we seek better loads or larger shells....... That works for a while but eventually success drops of again and we look for the next "bandaid" to improve our shooting.

I love to shoot the 20 ga.... I have good days... and bad days.... I even have bad streaks........ I have learned to look at myself and not the gun/ga or loads as the cause. I correct the problem within and shoot birds until the problem raises it's head again.

The hunting industry feeds on us falling prey to the idea that technology can solve our problems. They are constantly trying to sell us on bigger is better. So many hunters get wrapped up in "success" that they forget the basics that got them there. shotguns by nature are a short range weapon. Why are we pushing them to be what they are not?
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Re: The 20 can almost do it all

Postby solway gunner » Thu Nov 07, 2013 5:43 pm

pedro13 wrote: Like a few said before me properly loaded with heavy fodder a 20 gauge will outperform 10 & 12 loaded with steel. .


pro staff tss?

so youd quite confidently take your 20ga onto a marsh and happily take on 60/70+yrd 6lb geese using no9 shot without any hesitation and without fear of crippling keeping a close eye on shells/kills ratio?
remember what happened to pinnochio..

so show me, what is your average shot distance that you shoot wildfowl at?

ive never seen one (1) pattern beyond 50yrds with TSS on this board.,ive never read of anyone wing shooting beyond 50yrds with it either .,but read on nearly every thread about how wonderous it is behind the "keyboard blind",but yet thats as far as it goes.
who pass shoots duck/ geese with no7 or no9 tss beyond 50/60yrds on this board?
*** do i need a ballistic programme for?its about as much use to me as sunglasses are in a rainstorm.
I have no problem using regular handloaded steel to maximum distances as do others do,so wheres the gain in killing something outright??to make it deader?
HH
if you want to sell those restricted range guns in the pics ill be glad to relieve you of them :wink:
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Re: The 20 can almost do it all

Postby pedro13 » Thu Nov 07, 2013 5:58 pm

solway gunner wrote:
pedro13 wrote: Like a few said before me properly loaded with heavy fodder a 20 gauge will outperform 10 & 12 loaded with steel. .


pro staff tss?

so youd quite confidently take your 20ga onto a marsh and happily take on 60/70+yrd 6lb geese using no9 shot without any hesitation and without fear of crippling keeping a close eye on shells/kills ratio?
remember what happened to pinnochio..

so show me, what is your average shot distance that you shoot wildfowl at?

ive never seen one (1) pattern beyond 50yrds with TSS on this board.,ive never read of anyone wing shooting beyond 50yrds with it either .,but read on nearly every thread about how wonderous it is behind the "keyboard blind",but yet thats as far as it goes.
who pass shoots duck/ geese with no7 or no9 tss beyond 50/60yrds on this board?
*** do i need a ballistic programme for?its about as much use to me as sunglasses are in a rainstorm.


I have no problem using regular handloaded steel to maximum distances as do others do,so wheres the gain in killing something outright??to make it deader?
HH
if you want to sell those restricted range guns in the pics ill be glad to relieve you of them :wink:


No pro staff. I shoot mostly under 40 yards. I used it for my third shot. Only time I went long range was last year and I smoked a pair of geese at sixty yards with my .410 loaded with TSS. I have no real need for pass shooting at that distance. Here is a pattern at sixty yards. Those are 10-20-30 inch rings. Not too bad. Here is the first pattern. How many more ya want? There is more pellets in the ten than most steel loads.
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Re: The 20 can almost do it all

Postby pedro13 » Thu Nov 07, 2013 6:01 pm

If I was shooting 6lb geese I would have no problem 60-70. I only have giants here 10-14 lbs. those small geese are easier to kill than mallards, when in get the chance.
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Re: The 20 can almost do it all

Postby Saltwater_Assassin » Thu Nov 07, 2013 6:41 pm

hamernhonkers wrote:I think you are making a good argument but you are making it towards the wrong part of the equation, its not the gun that's not doing its part it is the person behind the trigger :thumbsup:


Well put. I thought I was the only one who felt that way. No doubt that shell loads and certain gauges may be needed for certain situations but its very simple that quite a bit of people simply just cant shoot.
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Re: The 20 can almost do it all

Postby micneador » Thu Nov 07, 2013 8:59 pm

You know who shoots 30 plus yards and swears by only a 12? Sky blasting noobs! :grooving: :grooving: :grooving:
Had to go there.

Is all honesty though the 28 is a great shooter. I love carrying my legacy in the crp grass for roosters and quail. If I had the big boy money I'd be shooting nothing but that in the green timber.
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Re: The 20 can almost do it all

Postby hamernhonkers » Thu Nov 07, 2013 9:19 pm

solway gunner wrote:HH
if you want to sell those restricted range guns in the pics ill be glad to relieve you of them :wink:



Oh you know that will never happen :tongue: :tongue: :tongue:
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Re: The 20 can almost do it all

Postby hamernhonkers » Thu Nov 07, 2013 9:24 pm

pedro13 wrote:
solway gunner wrote:
pedro13 wrote: Like a few said before me properly loaded with heavy fodder a 20 gauge will outperform 10 & 12 loaded with steel. .


pro staff tss?

so youd quite confidently take your 20ga onto a marsh and happily take on 60/70+yrd 6lb geese using no9 shot without any hesitation and without fear of crippling keeping a close eye on shells/kills ratio?
remember what happened to pinnochio..

so show me, what is your average shot distance that you shoot wildfowl at?

ive never seen one (1) pattern beyond 50yrds with TSS on this board.,ive never read of anyone wing shooting beyond 50yrds with it either .,but read on nearly every thread about how wonderous it is behind the "keyboard blind",but yet thats as far as it goes.
who pass shoots duck/ geese with no7 or no9 tss beyond 50/60yrds on this board?
*** do i need a ballistic programme for?its about as much use to me as sunglasses are in a rainstorm.


I have no problem using regular handloaded steel to maximum distances as do others do,so wheres the gain in killing something outright??to make it deader?
HH
if you want to sell those restricted range guns in the pics ill be glad to relieve you of them :wink:


No pro staff. I shoot mostly under 40 yards. I used it for my third shot. Only time I went long range was last year and I smoked a pair of geese at sixty yards with my .410 loaded with TSS. I have no real need for pass shooting at that distance. Here is a pattern at sixty yards. Those are 10-20-30 inch rings. Not too bad. Here is the first pattern. How many more ya want? There is more pellets in the ten than most steel loads.



You hunting waterfowl or skeeters :eek: Looks like a hummingbird couldn't get through that pattern :biggrin:
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Re: The 20 can almost do it all

Postby hawglips » Fri Nov 08, 2013 10:24 am

solway gunner wrote::lol3: no wonder ..so now its 28ga outshoots 12ga and 10ga...stop it please..

HH look what youve started :yes:

hawglips wrote:
The 20 loaded with high quality shot will out-gun a 12 or 10 gauge loaded with the cheap stuff.


:eek: this is getting silly now..
cheap stuff? what exactly do you mean by cheap stuff?
:lol3:
TSS BS reaches an all time high !!



It's obvious you've never shot any of the good stuff. :lol:
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Re: The 20 can almost do it all

Postby dakotashooter2 » Fri Nov 08, 2013 11:50 am

I know a lot of shooters who consistently take birds out beyond 60 yards with the 12 ga...... That is if you call
1 bird in 5 shots "consistent" and that 1 in 5 shots is being generous. Experience has taught me that hunter shot to kill ratio is generally about as accurate as a "fish story". It's human nature. A little success usually erases or clouds the true numbers. That "extra success" is often more percieved and an actuality.


I knew a couple of notorious skybusters in high school. Monday mornings they would brag of their skills and declare that the 12 ga loaded with buckshot (pre steel) was the ultimate tool for taking high geese. They would also brag about how many boxes of shells they fired off over the weekend. Anyone that took time to do the math realized that they downed about 1-2 birds per box of shells. Yet in their mids they were "consistently" taking geese with that ultimate settup................in my 35 years of hunting I've encountered many more like them.....................

I like to think it is higher and wish it was but my own success ratio hangs right around 45%........12 or 20 ga.
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Re: The 20 can almost do it all

Postby 3200 man » Fri Nov 08, 2013 2:59 pm

if you can't take 2 limits of ducks/geese out of a box of ammo , you need more time at the sporting clays range ! :thumbsup:

OR

You're not let-ing them work..... :lol3:
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Re: The 20 can almost do it all

Postby tilley » Fri Nov 08, 2013 3:41 pm

Beretta onyx 20 ga. with Kent 7/8 oz 1550 fps 3's is my choice for canadas,ducks and all in between. Kills em all graveyard dead.
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Re: The 20 can almost do it all

Postby mudpack » Fri Nov 08, 2013 8:41 pm

hamernhonkers wrote:as the years have gone by I have realized that I didn't need the largest payload I could get to ensure a clean ethical kill, I just needed to be diligent in doing my part to ensure that I used my equipment and my skills with-in their limitations.

I think you are making a good argument but you are making it towards the wrong part of the equation, its not the gun that's not doing its part it is the person behind the trigger :thumbsup:


'honkers is absolutely correct. All gages need to be used within their limitations, 12 or 20 or 10. The bottom line is that the smaller the gage the more limited they are, simply because of hull capacity (payload). It IS the person pulling the trigger that controls the shot, and if he's shooting a larger gun, then he can effectively take longer shots. Not longer by much, but longer nonetheless.

Let's not turn this into a '20 gage with TSS is a more effective gun than a 12 with Winchester Xperts" thing; this thread isn't about effectiveness of different shot, it's about 20's and 12's. You can also say "a 20 gage with TSS shot is less effective than a 12 with TSS shot" can you not? Again, anything you can do with a 20 (TSS, choke tighter, etc.) you can do with a 12...and do it better. That's just plain fact.
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Re: The 20 can almost do it all

Postby BBK » Fri Nov 08, 2013 9:08 pm

The only true limitation to a gauge/load is when the projectiles being shot are no longer lethal. You can tighten any gauge, any load, down to kill at the maximum effective range of the individual pellets... but then its up to the shooter to be skilled enough to kill at that range.

You can take a 20 gauge 7/8 #3 and be lethal to what, about 40 yards? But having it choked down to kill at 40 is going to take one hell of a shooter to hit anything with it.. Rifle pattern.

IMO the best use for a 20 gauge is a 30 yard weapon with #4 shot. At that range you can take any duck, even fat mallards, with the #4's.

With work you can pattern 2's to kill at 30 and have one hell of a giant honker load.

Of course you can push it farther than that, but for the general shooter that is where I think the line needs to be drawn. You have to remember, the normal shooter can't hit reliably with a 12 gauge 1 1/4 load at 40 yards, 20 gauge is not an "average" shooters weapon past 30. With that being said, I wouldn't consider the contributors to this thread's images "average".
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