Patterning - # of hits for various waterfowl

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Patterning - # of hits for various waterfowl

Postby mjk » Sun Nov 03, 2013 12:32 pm

Hi,

I know this has been discussed, but can't find a thread thru Google.

What is the accepted # of hits needed for Canadians, Mallards, Divers, etc.

Thank you. :thumbsup:
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Re: Patterning - # of hits for various waterfowl

Postby 10gaOkie » Sun Nov 03, 2013 12:50 pm

My own rule of thumb that I live by is.... a 73% pattern at the max distance I intend to shoot. I dont shoot any payloads smaller than 1 1/8oz. So, if I was shooting 1 1/4oz of #1s at 45 yards, I would not hunt with it unless I could get at least 92 hits inside a 30" circle. This is from my in the field hunting experience of what works and what doesnt. I have no doubt I could get by with less hits but these are my own standards.

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Re: Patterning - # of hits for various waterfowl

Postby MK10 » Sun Nov 03, 2013 4:57 pm

mjk wrote:Hi,

I know this has been discussed, but can't find a thread thru Google.

What is the accepted # of hits needed for Canadians, Mallards, Divers, etc.

Thank you. :thumbsup:



http://www.gfp.sd.gov/hunting/docs/Nont ... Roster.pdf
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Re: Patterning - # of hits for various waterfowl

Postby John Duck » Sun Nov 03, 2013 6:51 pm

10gaOkie wrote:My own rule of thumb that I live by is.... a 73% pattern at the max distance I intend to shoot. I dont shoot any payloads smaller than 1 1/8oz. So, if I was shooting 1 1/4oz of #1s at 45 yards, I would not hunt with it unless I could get at least 92 hits inside a 30" circle. This is from my in the field hunting experience of what works and what doesnt. I have no doubt I could get by with less hits but these are my own standards.

Chris


don't worry, when weather, wind and shot string are considered you are not going to even get near any 73% pattern, this I can promise. I shoot no payloads less than 1 1/4 and prefer 1 3/8.
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Re: Patterning - # of hits for various waterfowl

Postby 10gaOkie » Sun Nov 03, 2013 10:39 pm

I hunt open water most of the time with lots of wind and do just fine.

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Re: Patterning - # of hits for various waterfowl

Postby Elvis Kiwi » Mon Nov 04, 2013 1:29 am

MK10 wrote:
mjk wrote:Hi,

I know this has been discussed, but can't find a thread thru Google.

What is the accepted # of hits needed for Canadians, Mallards, Divers, etc.

Thank you. :thumbsup:



http://www.gfp.sd.gov/hunting/docs/Nont ... Roster.pdf



now I may be a little slow but if you read that info on the link and believed it we would all be shooting #BB guns :huh: :huh:
if I read it right it is saying 1-2 hits in vitals is all thats needed...I guess 1 in the head or neck bones will do the job but I believe most of us would like to put a few more holes than that in a bird.
Frank and Ned will start on this and go on and on from oppisite ends of the tennis court.
short answer is use a popular load (1 1/8th oz of #2...kent faststeel is a good starting point). try it in your gun at the range you THINK you will be shooting and if your pattern has a reasonable even spread without holes bigger than a tea cup saucer well get out and shoot some birds and see how you get on. I honestly believe if we were all honest with ourselves that that load will do 95% of all the shooting we do without too much fuss. sure there are denser/more open patterns and lighter kicking loads and ones that have longer legs but have a think before you poo hoo my above statement.
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Re: Patterning - # of hits for various waterfowl

Postby MK10 » Mon Nov 04, 2013 7:30 am

Elvis Kiwi wrote:
MK10 wrote:
mjk wrote:Hi,

I know this has been discussed, but can't find a thread thru Google.

What is the accepted # of hits needed for Canadians, Mallards, Divers, etc.

Thank you. :thumbsup:



http://www.gfp.sd.gov/hunting/docs/Nont ... Roster.pdf



now I may be a little slow but if you read that info on the link and believed it we would all be shooting #BB guns :huh: :huh:
if I read it right it is saying 1-2 hits in vitals is all thats needed...I guess 1 in the head or neck bones will do the job but I believe most of us would like to put a few more holes than that in a bird.
Frank and Ned will start on this and go on and on from oppisite ends of the tennis court.
short answer is use a popular load (1 1/8th oz of #2...kent faststeel is a good starting point). try it in your gun at the range you THINK you will be shooting and if your pattern has a reasonable even spread without holes bigger than a tea cup saucer well get out and shoot some birds and see how you get on. I honestly believe if we were all honest with ourselves that that load will do 95% of all the shooting we do without too much fuss. sure there are denser/more open patterns and lighter kicking loads and ones that have longer legs but have a think before you poo hoo my above statement.


I'm not sure how anyone would take away the same view. I'm not sure that Frank or Ned would agree with your BB theory either.

Yes, Roster indicates that we need at least 1-2 pellets strikes to vital organs to achieve consistent B1 (behaviour one) birds i.e. dead or immobile within 30 seconds. However, in order to achieve 1-2 pellet strikes to vital organs such as the brain, neck, heart etc. we need far more pellets striking the actual bird. Hence the extreme variance in suitable pattern densities from one bird size to the next.

I'd really suggest having a good look at the data again, and perhaps putting those recommendations to a serious test - you might be pleasantly surprised how well they really work.
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Re: Patterning - # of hits for various waterfowl

Postby dakotashooter2 » Mon Nov 04, 2013 10:31 am

My own personal experience has demostrated that 5-6 pellets will usually result in a bird hitting the ground dead. That number of pellets usually yields (for me), a broken wing, 2-3 hits in the vitals and 2-3 hits in non vital areas.
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Re: Patterning - # of hits for various waterfowl

Postby Frank Lopez » Mon Nov 04, 2013 11:25 am

Elvis Kiwi wrote:
now I may be a little slow but if you read that info on the link and believed it we would all be shooting #BB guns :huh: :huh:
if I read it right it is saying 1-2 hits in vitals is all thats needed...I guess 1 in the head or neck bones will do the job but I believe most of us would like to put a few more holes than that in a bird.
Frank and Ned will start on this and go on and on from oppisite ends of the tennis court.


It's about statistics and probability, Elvis. Yes, one pellet to the brain will kill any bird, and occasionally a single "golden BB" does account for a bird in the bag. But the objective of a shotgun is to hit a relatively fast moving target with a number of pellets to ensure that at least one pellet will strike a vital organ. The more pellets in the pattern, the greater the probability of a vital organ being struck and disrupted.

And as far as Ned and I go, we both believe that you need a minimum of 4 to 5 pellets to strike the bird to ensure that at least one of them will strike a vital organ. The difference between Ned and I is in how we arrive at the minimum number of pellets in the pattern are necessary to achieve that end.

Frank
I feel slightly sorry for a man who has never patterned his gun, who has no idea how far his chosen load will retain killing penetration. But I'm extremely sorry for the ducks he shoots at beyond the killing range of his gun and load - Bob Brister
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Re: Patterning - # of hits for various waterfowl

Postby lostknife4 » Mon Nov 04, 2013 2:11 pm

Sounds like TSS country to me !
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Re: Patterning - # of hits for various waterfowl

Postby Elvis Kiwi » Tue Nov 05, 2013 12:58 am

now this is better, we discussing things like gentlemen :thumbsup:
I wrote the above with tongue in cheek but stand by what I said. the data SUGGESTS a "golden BB" is all thats needed, I agree 1000% we need a pretty good pattern to get it to hit where its needed. very pleased to see you didnt take offense Frank as none was intended, for either of you fine gents...it just made my point easier to get across....a good sensible load will do 95% of what we ask our pet loads to do..no fuss no bother.
we all do things slightly different...and thank the good lord for that :thumbsup:
a single hit with a .50BMG would take care of it :biggrin:
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Re: Patterning - # of hits for various waterfowl

Postby Elvis Kiwi » Tue Nov 05, 2013 1:06 am

yip went back and re read whole thing again. interesting suggested loads???? BB as minimum for large geese had me scratching head till I spotted the velocity...below 1450fps.
from my own experience and that of the guys I shoot with the SINGLE biggest improvement we have seen to our shot/kill ratio was when speed got up to and just above 1500fps. I sure dont feel undergunned using steel #2s on geese as they have worked great for me.
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Re: Patterning - # of hits for various waterfowl

Postby lostknife4 » Tue Nov 05, 2013 7:58 am

Mike what is the average or as near as you can tell average distance that you kill these birds that you can with some certainty or as good a guess as you can provide that has led you to the conclusion that the extra velocity has made a significant difference? I'm wondering whether there is any reason why those big pellets are having difficulty penetrating the feather coverings that they require the added velocity and that may be partially the reason why I believe your success ratio may increase by using a smaller and much denser (mass) and a lot bigger pellet count and at a mv of 1350fps? First off the pattern density is an order of magnitude greater and being much smaller diameter would get through the feather cover a lot easier IMHO.
Notice I didn't say TSS, but consider the theory.
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Re: Patterning - # of hits for various waterfowl

Postby Frank Lopez » Tue Nov 05, 2013 11:30 am

Elvis Kiwi wrote:yip went back and re read whole thing again. interesting suggested loads???? BB as minimum for large geese had me scratching head till I spotted the velocity...below 1450fps.


Roster has a new chart out on which he accounts for velocities of up to 1600fps. No shot sizes were changed for geese or ducks with respect to this velocity increase.

Regarding your use of 1500fps #2 steel for geese, I have used 1 1/8oz #2s on geese with limited success. Friends of mine use 1 1/4oz #1s at a lower velocity and have better results than I had with the #2s. I now use 1 1/4oz BB and have no problems. What I found with the #2s was that the effective range was about 30 to 35 yards. Much beyond that and the number of cripples went up.

Frank
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Re: Patterning - # of hits for various waterfowl

Postby lostknife4 » Tue Nov 05, 2013 11:55 am

Frank Lopez wrote:
Elvis Kiwi wrote:yip went back and re read whole thing again. interesting suggested loads???? BB as minimum for large geese had me scratching head till I spotted the velocity...below 1450fps.


Roster has a new chart out on which he accounts for velocities of up to 1600fps. No shot sizes were changed for geese or ducks with respect to this velocity increase.

Regarding your use of 1500fps #2 steel for geese, I have used 1 1/8oz #2s on geese with limited success. Friends of mine use 1 1/4oz #1s at a lower velocity and have better results than I had with the #2s. I now use 1 1/4oz BB and have no problems. What I found with the #2s was that the effective range was about 30 to 35 yards. Much beyond that and the number of cripples went up.

Frank


Almost sounds to me as your load was either/or a bit shy on energy or pattern density or both...........
Anyway here is a chart for your perusal..
Image

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Re: Patterning - # of hits for various waterfowl

Postby Frank Lopez » Tue Nov 05, 2013 1:46 pm

The density was fine, Lost. But if you look at your chart, those #2s had 1.86 inches of gel penetration. That's a little light. I usually look for something in the 2 to 2.25 inch range. Just my personal preference based on the birds we shoot.

Frank
I feel slightly sorry for a man who has never patterned his gun, who has no idea how far his chosen load will retain killing penetration. But I'm extremely sorry for the ducks he shoots at beyond the killing range of his gun and load - Bob Brister
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Re: Patterning - # of hits for various waterfowl

Postby MK10 » Tue Nov 05, 2013 3:03 pm

Elvis Kiwi wrote:yip went back and re read whole thing again. interesting suggested loads???? BB as minimum for large geese had me scratching head till I spotted the velocity...below 1450fps.
from my own experience and that of the guys I shoot with the SINGLE biggest improvement we have seen to our shot/kill ratio was when speed got up to and just above 1500fps.


Elvis Kiwi wrote: sure dont feel undergunned using steel #2s on geese as they have worked great for me.


I've also taken Canada Geese in the South Island of New Zealand with your home grown Falcon steel shot Ultra Steel 35 ammunition (i.e. 12g, 70mm, 35g BB and #2's @ 1460 fps) and Hyper Steel 3" (i.e. 12g, 76mm, 32g #2 @ 1500 fps). While most these geese were taken over decoys at ranges under the 35 yard mark, the were quite a few taken at the 40-45 yard mark. At this longer distance BB's were clearly a better killer than the 2's in both loads.
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Re: Patterning - # of hits for various waterfowl

Postby Elvis Kiwi » Wed Nov 06, 2013 2:34 am

awesome that someone else has tasted our canada shooting!!!! and using falcon loads aswell...thats made my day.
yes I guess 40-45 yards about sees me stop pulling trigger I cant hit a running bunny past that so wont have much show on a bird.
and I do see your point Lost...but my wallet is too light to go there...one of the best write ups Ive seen on heavier than lead loads summed it up neatly by saying "if not for the cost I would shoot nothing else"
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