shot weight vs. velocity

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Re: shot weight vs. velocity

Postby mauserfan » Wed Feb 12, 2014 10:51 am

I read through this thread and did not see where anyone brought up one of the most critical issues in my opinion ; where to hit the bird. We shoot to the head & neck area. I have to assume then that we are all on the same page, right?....mauser
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Re: shot weight vs. velocity

Postby Theduckguru » Wed Feb 12, 2014 10:55 am

Yuchi1 wrote:
lostknife4 wrote:As would 1 oz TSS @ 1350 fps but given equal gel penetration with a LOT more pellets and more range .................
Lost
Sorry guys just had to post this..
Image
Image

So it would appear that for 30 yards the steel 3's would be a better choice than the 2's from a pattern density standpoint with the same amount of gel penetration.


One thing that is noticed using the #2 steel loads (chart) is that for a ~7% increase in MV (1500/1400FPS), a ~9% increase in effective range (30.8/28.0 yds.) is gained for a ~11% overall superiority of the faster load over the slower one.



Step back to 40, 45, 50, and 55 yards and you'll see that ballistic superiority disappear. Go to the patterning board, and you will see the benefits a slower/heavier loading.
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Re: shot weight vs. velocity

Postby lostknife4 » Wed Feb 12, 2014 2:37 pm

Slow is more fun!
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Re: shot weight vs. velocity

Postby slowshooter » Wed Feb 12, 2014 2:50 pm

Depends on what you are shooting at.

For a short time I was using 7 shot in a specific area because none of my shots were more than 20 yards and I was shooting at teal.

Then one day a ringneck buzzed by and I nailed it. Dropped like a stone. When I cleaned it the neck head were shot up pretty well. But the breast area? I peeled back the skin and the breast tissue look like I had taken a bedazzler to the meat. Almost no penetration.

Right now trying to develop a fast light load with small shot that will give me penetration inside of 25 yards on the sturdy ducks - but won't be so tight of a pattern that it will obliterated the easy to kill birds (meaning teal).
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Re: shot weight vs. velocity

Postby Theduckguru » Wed Feb 12, 2014 4:51 pm

slowshooter wrote:Depends on what you are shooting at.

For a short time I was using 7 shot in a specific area because none of my shots were more than 20 yards and I was shooting at teal.

Then one day a ringneck buzzed by and I nailed it. Dropped like a stone. When I cleaned it the neck head were shot up pretty well. But the breast area? I peeled back the skin and the breast tissue look like I had taken a bedazzler to the meat. Almost no penetration.

Right now trying to develop a fast light load with small shot that will give me penetration inside of 25 yards on the sturdy ducks - but won't be so tight of a pattern that it will obliterated the easy to kill birds (meaning teal).


#5
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Re: shot weight vs. velocity

Postby slowshooter » Wed Feb 12, 2014 4:55 pm

Theduckguru wrote:
slowshooter wrote:Depends on what you are shooting at.

For a short time I was using 7 shot in a specific area because none of my shots were more than 20 yards and I was shooting at teal.

Then one day a ringneck buzzed by and I nailed it. Dropped like a stone. When I cleaned it the neck head were shot up pretty well. But the breast area? I peeled back the skin and the breast tissue look like I had taken a bedazzler to the meat. Almost no penetration.

Right now trying to develop a fast light load with small shot that will give me penetration inside of 25 yards on the sturdy ducks - but won't be so tight of a pattern that it will obliterated the easy to kill birds (meaning teal).


#5


That's what I'm thinking. I have a bottle of that laying around I believe.
My other option was go smaller and faster then limit my shots accordingly.
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Re: shot weight vs. velocity

Postby Beretta06 » Wed Feb 12, 2014 7:01 pm

I don't agree with slower is better, I shoot 1 1/16 oz of 3s @ 1730fps patterns great out to 50yards. If you like shooting slow stuff great doesn't work for me!

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Re: shot weight vs. velocity

Postby cannon » Wed Feb 12, 2014 7:54 pm

Patternmaster tubes rule, and ported tubes are better.
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Re: shot weight vs. velocity

Postby jehler » Wed Feb 12, 2014 7:57 pm

Damn if I forgot to look to see if you really had a patternmaster in your gun when I was down
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Re: shot weight vs. velocity

Postby Mugzwump » Wed Feb 12, 2014 9:48 pm

This threads been running a long time now and it seems like it's pretty far from the OP's question.

Which is better, heavy and slow or fast and light?

Personally I do not like small shot as you have to put velocity behind it to get it to kill at distance, and then you're left with too many pellets in the meat. I'm a strict meat hunter, and I don't like cheap steel on the dinner table.

I choose to shoot large shot, #2 or BB at ducks, sometimes #3 or #4 say for woodies in a small hole or creek, but that's rare and only in a few spots where I know I'll be sitting 10 or 15 FEET from landing zone.

For geese it's BB or larger.

I try to keep it all around 1300 fps. I find switching velocity too much makes me a bad shot. I'll keep a box or two of high velocity rounds 1500fps or higher for goose hunting in extreme wind, but it's only for days when the wind is putting a big lead on my shots. Quite rare.

I like heavy loads and large shot, low velocity is damn fast enough for me. The kills are clean, that is what is most important to me.

I'd hate to shoot a bird and have it so full of shot it goes *clink* on my plate. I use #4 for partridge and rabbit for the same reason. If not a .22

Besides that I don't see why anyone would need a chart to know whats gonna kill a duck.

Now you could get into all kinds here as this thread as done great in showing. There is definitely more than one way to skin a cat.

If you choose to shoot #9's at a duck, well I'd imagine that might taste a bit like sand come dinner time, and just the same I'd wonder where the meat went if you chose to hit him with T shot.

Someone said you can't get more dead than dead... back in the lead days I used a .410 or 20 ga with #4's for ducks and geese.. all I ever needed. Today, its a 12 ga with #2 or BB steel.. it's all the same in the end... birds die,I go home, I eat.

You might see some advantages in throwing say #4's out at 1700 fps at passing geese (it would be physically minimal, hard to measure in reality) but when the BB's at 1350fps work fine... why use the extra powder charge? I sure as hell wouldn't use less #4 shot going fast over more triple B shot going "slow". Ultimately you are just substituting hitting a bird with one lethal pellet over hitting him with two half-lethal pellets. Even if a BBB sized pellet doesn't penetrate, it can still knock a bird out of the sky with the energy it has. I have cleaned many geese without one single hole in the head, body or wing. :eek: (I don't like to do the pissing contest thing too much. but when it's true it's true)

I look at it more like this, If I were to take a completely different approach to shooting a goose, say with a rifle, what rifle would I choose? Well to me the most sense would be a .22 cal long rifle. Fires a .22 inch bullet. Now I take that idea and transfer it to my shotgun. If I want one of these pellets to kill, it has to be similar to that .22 So for geese I use BB or bit bigger at the same muzzle velocity an average .22LR travels at.

Anyhow... sorry for the friggin' novel here, I just thought we might steer this thread back towards the question at hand... it is more a question of preference and choice rather than a question that minute details and half correct physics can answer.

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Re: shot weight vs. velocity

Postby Yuchi1 » Wed Feb 12, 2014 10:46 pm

Theduckguru wrote:
Yuchi1 wrote:
lostknife4 wrote:As would 1 oz TSS @ 1350 fps but given equal gel penetration with a LOT more pellets and more range .................
Lost
Sorry guys just had to post this..
Image
Image

So it would appear that for 30 yards the steel 3's would be a better choice than the 2's from a pattern density standpoint with the same amount of gel penetration.


One thing that is noticed using the #2 steel loads (chart) is that for a ~7% increase in MV (1500/1400FPS), a ~9% increase in effective range (30.8/28.0 yds.) is gained for a ~11% overall superiority of the faster load over the slower one.



Step back to 40, 45, 50, and 55 yards and you'll see that ballistic superiority disappear. Go to the patterning board, and you will see the benefits a slower/heavier loading.


Wrong (again) as what starts out faster will always be faster and with the appropriate choking, superior to the slow stuff even at those ranges. Been there, done that.
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Re: shot weight vs. velocity

Postby cannon » Thu Feb 13, 2014 6:52 am

jehler wrote:Damn if I forgot to look to see if you really had a patternmaster in your gun when I was down


You wouldn't have been able to see it if you had remembered to look. You would have been blinded by the glare from its chrome-plated glory.
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Re: shot weight vs. velocity

Postby jehler » Thu Feb 13, 2014 9:19 am

cannon wrote:
jehler wrote:Damn if I forgot to look to see if you really had a patternmaster in your gun when I was down


You wouldn't have been able to see it if you had remembered to look. You would have been blinded by the glare from its chrome-plated glory.

My mind hasn't been right since that trip, maybe I'm still suffering from its awe?
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Re: shot weight vs. velocity

Postby wildflights » Thu Feb 13, 2014 10:00 am

slowshooter wrote:Depends on what you are shooting at.

For a short time I was using 7 shot in a specific area because none of my shots were more than 20 yards and I was shooting at teal.

Then one day a ringneck buzzed by and I nailed it. Dropped like a stone. When I cleaned it the neck head were shot up pretty well. But the breast area? I peeled back the skin and the breast tissue look like I had taken a bedazzler to the meat. Almost no penetration.

Right now trying to develop a fast light load with small shot that will give me penetration inside of 25 yards on the sturdy ducks - but won't be so tight of a pattern that it will obliterated the easy to kill birds (meaning teal).


Love them nickel plated #7's. I shake my birds over a tin pan and reload shot with experience.
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Re: shot weight vs. velocity

Postby Theduckguru » Thu Feb 13, 2014 3:23 pm

Yuchi1 wrote:
Theduckguru wrote:
Yuchi1 wrote:
lostknife4 wrote:As would 1 oz TSS @ 1350 fps but given equal gel penetration with a LOT more pellets and more range .................
Lost
Sorry guys just had to post this..
Image
Image

So it would appear that for 30 yards the steel 3's would be a better choice than the 2's from a pattern density standpoint with the same amount of gel penetration.


One thing that is noticed using the #2 steel loads (chart) is that for a ~7% increase in MV (1500/1400FPS), a ~9% increase in effective range (30.8/28.0 yds.) is gained for a ~11% overall superiority of the faster load over the slower one.



Step back to 40, 45, 50, and 55 yards and you'll see that ballistic superiority disappear. Go to the patterning board, and you will see the benefits a slower/heavier loading.


Wrong (again) as what starts out faster will always be faster and with the appropriate choking, superior to the slow stuff even at those ranges. Been there, done that.


Yea, like steel has to be propelled at super speeds - not. Nobody ever made any money in America marketing slower anything. What is sad is you are marketing yourself.
Last edited by Theduckguru on Thu Feb 13, 2014 10:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: shot weight vs. velocity

Postby Mugzwump » Thu Feb 13, 2014 7:35 pm

Yuchi1 wrote:
Wrong (again) as what starts out faster will always be faster and with the appropriate choking, superior to the slow stuff even at those ranges. Been there, done that.


Well this just isn't always true... a more dense pellet will retain velocity much longer/further than a less dense pellet. which is why Lost gets away with TSS #9's . A #9 steel pellet will probably go about as far as you could throw a stone before it lost most of it's velocity to air resistance, even if you fired it at a ridiculous velocity, it would never out perform the denser pellet.

One thing that velocity has against it is this: air resistance is proportional to the square of velocity... so the higher your velocity the drag of air resistance becomes massive. A round ball has a very high form drag, at 90%.. a flat surface being 100%.

So.. with that you can easily say the slower velocity rounds are much more efficient than the high velocity rounds.

It is possible that the fast loads are under so much drag that they in fact slow down very rapidly, at which point they may become equal,or at least similar to the velocity of the slower loads. (I'm sure someone has a nice chart out there to contradict this)

We would probably need some heavy math to determine that... but I would't be surprised if it were true to a degree.

Another thing that is overlooked is what happens if the pellet is not perfectly round. As drag increases, by the square of velocity, so does the tendency for a moving object to become unstable, resulting in that object "wandering" from it's original path... in other words.. bad patterns.

It seems logical to me, that if you want to go fast and be good at it, you need a high density pellet that is very very round, but with a high density pellet... who needs to go fast?

There is most definitely an "optimum velocity" for each type pellet, one that is determined by physics to carry that pellet with the most efficiency. I'm not sure if there is any info out there that covers that... but it seems to me that would be the answer to the OP's question.

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Re: shot weight vs. velocity

Postby Jon Bergren » Thu Feb 13, 2014 11:05 pm

I shoot the fast stuff and it will kill further than the slow stuff. If you shoot steel 1's at 1730 fps which I do it will penetrate to kill snows to 62.2 yds. I also shoot and kill geese with 7/8 oz of B's and I can hold them together to 66.5 yds with a Terror choke. Don't tell me speed doesn't killl. Ned S the young 85 yr old.
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Re: shot weight vs. velocity

Postby Yuchi1 » Thu Feb 13, 2014 11:53 pm

Mugzwump wrote:
Yuchi1 wrote:
Wrong (again) as what starts out faster will always be faster and with the appropriate choking, superior to the slow stuff even at those ranges. Been there, done that.


My response was in reference to steel loads vs. steel loads as I am aware of the density factor.

Well this just isn't always true... a more dense pellet will retain velocity much longer/further than a less dense pellet. which is why Lost gets away with TSS #9's . A #9 steel pellet will probably go about as far as you could throw a stone before it lost most of it's velocity to air resistance, even if you fired it at a ridiculous velocity, it would never out perform the denser pellet.

One thing that velocity has against it is this: air resistance is proportional to the square of velocity... so the higher your velocity the drag of air resistance becomes massive. A round ball has a very high form drag, at 90%.. a flat surface being 100%.

So.. with that you can easily say the slower velocity rounds are much more efficient than the high velocity rounds.

It is possible that the fast loads are under so much drag that they in fact slow down very rapidly, at which point they may become equal,or at least similar to the velocity of the slower loads. (I'm sure someone has a nice chart out there to contradict this)

We would probably need some heavy math to determine that... but I would't be surprised if it were true to a degree.

Another thing that is overlooked is what happens if the pellet is not perfectly round. As drag increases, by the square of velocity, so does the tendency for a moving object to become unstable, resulting in that object "wandering" from it's original path... in other words.. bad patterns.

It seems logical to me, that if you want to go fast and be good at it, you need a high density pellet that is very very round, but with a high density pellet... who needs to go fast?

There is most definitely an "optimum velocity" for each type pellet, one that is determined by physics to carry that pellet with the most efficiency. I'm not sure if there is any info out there that covers that... but it seems to me that would be the answer to the OP's question.

mugz.
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Re: shot weight vs. velocity

Postby Yuchi1 » Thu Feb 13, 2014 11:57 pm

Theduckguru wrote:
Yuchi1 wrote:
Theduckguru wrote:
Yuchi1 wrote:
lostknife4 wrote:As would 1 oz TSS @ 1350 fps but given equal gel penetration with a LOT more pellets and more range .................
Lost
Sorry guys just had to post this..
Image
Image

So it would appear that for 30 yards the steel 3's would be a better choice than the 2's from a pattern density standpoint with the same amount of gel penetration.


One thing that is noticed using the #2 steel loads (chart) is that for a ~7% increase in MV (1500/1400FPS), a ~9% increase in effective range (30.8/28.0 yds.) is gained for a ~11% overall superiority of the faster load over the slower one.



Step back to 40, 45, 50, and 55 yards and you'll see that ballistic superiority disappear. Go to the patterning board, and you will see the benefits a slower/heavier loading.


Wrong (again) as what starts out faster will always be faster and with the appropriate choking, superior to the slow stuff even at those ranges. Been there, done that.


Yea, like steel has to be propelled at super speeds - not. Nobody ever made any money in America marketing slower anything. What is sad is you are marketing yourself.


I was simply pointing out the physical differences that velocity will impart, not marketing myself or (like some people) showing my hiney or, talking out of it either.
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Re: shot weight vs. velocity

Postby mudpack » Fri Feb 14, 2014 9:10 am

Jon Bergren wrote:I shoot the fast stuff and it will kill further than the slow stuff. If you shoot steel 1's at 1730 fps which I do it will penetrate to kill snows to 62.2 yds. I also shoot and kill geese with 7/8 oz of B's and I can hold them together to 66.5 yds with a Terror choke. Don't tell me speed doesn't killl. Ned S the young 85 yr old.

More speed does not kill more......I think that's the point than some of us are trying to make.

As for your other statements, I seem to remember some of your previous posts saying that you run out of killing pattern density at 55 yards. If this is true, how does achieving a "penetrate to kill" (whatever that means) distance to 66.7 yards help you?

If you added 1/8oz to that load, thereby dropping MV a bit, you might not lose pattern density until 60 yards at which point your penetration would still be adequate....? You'd gain 5 yards of lethal range.
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Re: shot weight vs. velocity

Postby Jon Bergren » Fri Feb 14, 2014 9:33 am

mudpack wrote:
Jon Bergren wrote:I shoot the fast stuff and it will kill further than the slow stuff. If you shoot steel 1's at 1730 fps which I do it will penetrate to kill snows to 62.2 yds. I also shoot and kill geese with 7/8 oz of B's and I can hold them together to 66.5 yds with a Terror choke. Don't tell me speed doesn't killl. Ned S the young 85 yr old.

More speed does not kill more......I think that's the point than some of us are trying to make.

As for your other statements, I seem to remember some of your previous posts saying that you run out of killing pattern density at 55 yards. If this is true, how does achieving a "penetrate to kill" (whatever that means) distance to 66.7 yards help you?

Per ususal Mudpack leaves out very import info from my posts. I kill to 55 yds with 7/8 oz of B's at 1765 fps because I am using a Mod extended choke which loses killing pattern density after 55 yds. This load will penetrate to kill to 66.5 yds and with a Terror choke I kill to 60 yds.

If you added 1/8oz to that load, thereby dropping MV a bit, you might not lose pattern density until 60 yards at which point your penetration would still be adequate....? You'd gain 5 yards of lethal range.


Why should I drop the velocity?, I can control the patterns. You would be shooting the fast stuff if you could, but you are unable to load it as well as control the pattern. Kinda like not understanding why the ejecta can spin and does. Ned S
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Re: shot weight vs. velocity

Postby lostknife4 » Fri Feb 14, 2014 9:53 am

Yuchi1 wrote:
I was simply pointing out the physical differences that velocity will impart, not marketing myself or (like some people) showing my hiney or, talking out of it either.


Velocity difference table using a final velocity fixed at 600 fps, the differences in initial or MV are indicated by the calculated range changes. Hope this helps,
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Re: shot weight vs. velocity

Postby lostknife4 » Fri Feb 14, 2014 9:56 am

Note the TSS #9 @ 1350, the last line of the table and the results compared to the first line of the table ie Steel #2 @ 1800 fps, the TSS still is superior with greater gel penetration at range within 3/4 approximate yards. Now if we were using equal diameter shot the Steel would definitely be out of the Medals race with TSS having 600 fps @ max range of 110 yards and 3.86 gel penetration
and still only going 1350 fps MV and 136 yards @ 1800 fps MV
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Last edited by lostknife4 on Fri Feb 14, 2014 10:10 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: shot weight vs. velocity

Postby lostknife4 » Fri Feb 14, 2014 10:04 am

Jon Bergren wrote:
mudpack wrote:
Jon Bergren wrote:

Why should I drop the velocity?, I can control the patterns. You would be shooting the fast stuff if you could, but you are unable to load it as well as control the pattern. Ned you sometimes surprise me in that you make perfect sense but only up to a point, in this post this is that point. The following statement leaves me wondering though IMHO Kinda like not understanding why the ejecta can spin and does. Ned S

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Re: shot weight vs. velocity

Postby jehler » Fri Feb 14, 2014 10:58 am

1 1/4 ounce at 1470 trumps all
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