Gaep Crimpers

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Re: Gaep Crimpers

Postby Jon Bergren » Tue Feb 18, 2014 10:17 am

I can get 100% patterns with the Hasting barrel and fold crimps, so does JP. Ned S
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Re: Gaep Crimpers

Postby lostknife4 » Tue Feb 18, 2014 1:21 pm

So do I Ned with my wad lock on a 12 ga bps but is the consistency or standard deviation that is the better indicator
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Re: Gaep Crimpers

Postby goosepit2007 » Tue Feb 18, 2014 2:36 pm

lostknife4 wrote:A lot of good advice but also some misguided advice too, the BPI roll crimp tool is just that ~ a roll crimp tool, it may also work as a finishing tool on six or eight pedal crimps but if you read their advertisement as referenced here following and above: http://www.ballisticproducts.com/Hull-V ... info/VISE/ , you will read that the BPI roll crimp tool is a ROLL CRIMP TOOL and not the next level "FINISHING" tool that the GAEP BN series is, in fact GAEP BN's have four levels of finish crimping. GAEP call their ROLL crimp tool an OTR or at least that is what is inscribed on the tools that I have.

I use 4 MEC Supersizers, 28, 20, 12 and 10, for my different gauge hulls and change the Supersizer by unscrewing 3 wing nuts and replacing that gauge Supersizer with a different one and then tighten 3 wing nuts the change over is accomplished quite quickly, as well as changing the GAEP head from an RTO to/from BN series, its quite quick actually and I do it quite often as I am not loading near the volumes as some of you guys and I like to experiment.
My Sizemaster Presses look after the initial sizing-decapping and the Supersizers are only used for GAEP crimping except for the 28 ga Mec 600 which as a separate operation I screw the Supersizer to the bench or just swing the Drill Press head to the side sometimes and size them with the Supersizer still mounted on the Drill Press. Gaep is then used as Jeff and others have described, I find this method easy and very quick as my left hand only leaves the Supersizer handle to insert or remove the hull and my right hand never leaves the hand crank on the press. Expensive? maybe, but over 50 years it has been amortized to a very low cost along with a bunch of other reloading and gunsmithing related tooling and test equiment.

Larry's comments should convince most TARGET shooters that where money is involved, and IMHO game too, the more CONSISTENT you can make your ammo the better your chances are. I have never seen a comparison of GAEP vs anything else ~ finish crimped patterns or velocity, but my money is on the GAEP having a lot better Standard Deviation.

Lost

bpi and precisions reloading are rto finish heads(roll crimp)...i have not tried but there is a review that says that it worked to keep the crimps closed...or something like that. would have to look and see what the review actually say's word for word type deal.

goose

here is the page with the review.


http://www.ballisticproducts.com/Origin ... fo/ROLL12/

as post same as above is not misguided at all, i said that they are for rto finish(roll crimp), and that there was review for the product on bpi roll crimp tool page that the reviewer states that he keeps his fold crimps shut by using there tooling.

i have not tried the rto heads to see if that is the case...but the reviewer thaught that it worked.

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Re: Gaep Crimpers

Postby UmatillaJeff » Tue Feb 18, 2014 10:46 pm

lostknife4 wrote:A lot of good advice but also some misguided advice too, the BPI roll crimp tool is just that ~ a roll crimp tool, it may also work as a finishing tool on six or eight pedal crimps but if you read their advertisement as referenced here following and above: http://www.ballisticproducts.com/Hull-V ... info/VISE/ , you will read that the BPI roll crimp tool is a ROLL CRIMP TOOL and not the next level "FINISHING" tool that the GAEP BN series is, in fact GAEP BN's have four levels of finish crimping. GAEP call their ROLL crimp tool an OTR or at least that is what is inscribed on the tools that I have.

I use 4 MEC Supersizers, 28, 20, 12 and 10, for my different gauge hulls and change the Supersizer by unscrewing 3 wing nuts and replacing that gauge Supersizer with a different one and then tighten 3 wing nuts the change over is accomplished quite quickly, as well as changing the GAEP head from an RTO to/from BN series, its quite quick actually and I do it quite often as I am not loading near the volumes as some of you guys and I like to experiment.
My Sizemaster Presses look after the initial sizing-decapping and the Supersizers are only used for GAEP crimping except for the 28 ga Mec 600 which as a separate operation I screw the Supersizer to the bench or just swing the Drill Press head to the side sometimes and size them with the Supersizer still mounted on the Drill Press. Gaep is then used as Jeff and others have described, I find this method easy and very quick as my left hand only leaves the Supersizer handle to insert or remove the hull and my right hand never leaves the hand crank on the press. Expensive? maybe, but over 50 years it has been amortized to a very low cost along with a bunch of other reloading and gunsmithing related tooling and test equiment.

Larry's comments should convince most TARGET shooters that where money is involved, and IMHO game too, the more CONSISTENT you can make your ammo the better your chances are. I have never seen a comparison of GAEP vs anything else ~ finish crimped patterns or velocity, but my money is on the GAEP having a lot better Standard Deviation.

Lost


So... We have no empirical date to prove that velocity is more consistent but we think it is because we want it to be!!

This statement is right up there with the guys who tell me we are going to have a good duck season because the fall for cast is good! Too many other factors for an empirical thinker to buy it.

tens of thousands of ducks are killed by factory ammo that varies as much ( and sometimes more) then 100 fps.

Even if your ammo varies that much... You are talking about a few inches at 40 yards from one shell to the next. The closer the target the less it means. If you guys think you are missing a target (duck, goose or clay bird) because your shells have too much deviation you are deluding yourselves!

Really guys.. Facts not feel good is what is needed here.
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Re: Gaep Crimpers

Postby lostknife4 » Wed Feb 19, 2014 5:50 am

True that I don't have any data at this point but if it ever stops snowing so I can get to my range I can get some data for my specific loadings however others may chime in especially those guys that target shoot for money who may already have this data. Statistics will prove that anything I your loading procedure and quantities of shot, powder, etc that can be controlled as closely as possible, including crimping will show up with a very small Standard Deviation thus will be very consistent however you have to have a good combination of everything else as well, including your shooting style.
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Re: Gaep Crimpers

Postby 3200 man » Wed Feb 19, 2014 6:35 am

I do understand what you're saying .......Jeff :thumbsup:

I have lost faith in most factory ammo's consistency other than some expensive loads for money shoots . So , I load my
own ! I also take the time to inspect each hull ,only shooting once fired with the ability to maintained good crimps . Quality
wads are a must over a good selection of weighed powder and good quality round shot is a must ! Now , along with the best
primer ( for the powder type ) , consistency in a load ( smallest ave Dev ) I've found , is in the loads compression and quality
of the crimp to (hold it there) and that's with just a shot charge or with buffer . So , the Gaep tool on the drill press offers this
to me as I can set it up to be very consistent every time ! Shooting 80 yd targets falling , you have to have consistency in
the load or you go sit down and watch us shoot-off for the money !

And I don't like sitting because of a weak shell , because it throws patterns off ! :hammer: :hi:
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Re: Gaep Crimpers

Postby 10gaOkie » Wed Feb 19, 2014 7:13 am

There is no proof that perfect/round pellets pattern any better than junky looking pellets. Also, the junky looking pellets will kill birds just as well as the perfect ones. Yet, almost to the man, reloaders prefer the best looking pellets. The same can be said with the gaep crimp.

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Re: Gaep Crimpers

Postby 3200 man » Wed Feb 19, 2014 7:33 am

The Pigeons I shoot with reclaimed shot , think the same as you Chris ! :thumbsup:

But , when cash is on the line I'll stay with good quality round shot . :yes:

Kinda thinking it falls true to steel shot too ? :huh:
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Re: Gaep Crimpers

Postby lostknife4 » Wed Feb 19, 2014 7:39 am

Chris I disagree with both your statements. What you said is partially true and for the average guy all he needs or wants is an almost perfect pattern and he cares not what the S.D. is. However there are those among us who want as spherical as possible shot and the lowest S.D. that WE can get! That's the main reason I handload! Not to say that your patterns and S.D. isn't more than acceptable to you, and others, I have the impression that with your experience and your experimentation you have developed quite a number of very acceptable recipes, a lot better than commercially available I'm sure, and loading procedures. So I guess we will just have to agree to disagree on those two points of contention.
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Re: Gaep Crimpers

Postby lostknife4 » Wed Feb 19, 2014 7:43 am

3200 man wrote:The Pigeons I shoot with reclaimed shot , think the same as you Chris ! :thumbsup:

But , when cash is on the line I'll stay with good quality round shot . :yes:

Kinda thinking it falls true to steel shot too ? :huh:


I use just normal Steel for the first round or two over deeks at 30 yards or so but the last shell in the gun is always TSS, GAEP RTO roll crimped!
Depending on the Ga and the conditions I may also have a full magazine of TSS.
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Re: Gaep Crimpers

Postby BT Justice » Wed Feb 19, 2014 8:43 am

LOST ,I'm gonna try anf help here, I know it's not going to penetrate some of the mindsets but I'll try.

First off I have to agree with Lost in the fact that ANYTHING and I mean anything that helps make your loads more consistent is worth at least looking into. I don't own the Gaep crimpers so I can't say anything about them, but if they help with consistency then I can understand the enthusiasm with them.

Here's a load that I worked on for quite awhile, it's not a worse or better crimp load but rather one that shows the difference between good and bad ignition, which is what a better crimp will also help with.
This is my 16 ga steel shot load with two different primers, exact same load except for powder charge and primer.
First load with 30 grains of STEEL powder and Fiocchi 616 primer
1470 fps
1269 fps
1488 fps
1279 fps
1412 fps 1383 fps avg Hi/Lo spread 219 fps
Now same exact load with 28 grains of STEEL powder(minus 2 grains) and the CCI 209M primer
1564 fps
1532 fps
1523 fps
1520 fps
1585 fps 1544 fps AVG Hi/Lo spread 65 fps

Both of the above loads were made using the exact same components except primers and powder charge, same lot of powder, same machine, same day, etc. Yet the Fiocchi primed load gave worse performance and lower velocities despite having 2 grains more of powder. To top it all off the Fiocchi primed load patterned like crap while the CCI 209M primed load patterned very well and very consistently, while the FIocchi primed load gave pattern differences of 10 -12% from shot to shot.
While I'm on it, where did the others 2 grains of powder go if it wasn't being burned properly in the load, out the end of the barrel.
Which gets to the next thing, the Fiocchi primed load would also be what I considered an IFFY load pressure wise. Why, well obviously there's not a complete powder burn going on in some of the loads, so there's unburnt powder traveling down the barrel..no big deal right...WRONG. We have no control over when or if this powder will ignite and sometimes it's right at the end of the barrel. I've seen pressure spike's as high as 23,000 PSI occur at the end of a trace line (which is when whatever your shooting is exiting the barrel). I really am not sure if this is dangerous or not, but it can't be very good for patterning having that big a pressure spike when your shot column hits open air.
Having a tool like the Gaep crimper will not insure you get better performance from you loads, but I know better crimps give better performance and consistency, which helps a great deal.
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Re: Gaep Crimpers

Postby 3200 man » Wed Feb 19, 2014 9:17 am

Joe

From what I've seen in my loads using the Gaep tool and that's ( before and after ) , I think you're exactly right !
Efficiency and Consistency in the load = performance with better patterns ! :thumbsup:
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Re: Gaep Crimpers

Postby goosepit2007 » Wed Feb 19, 2014 12:13 pm

use the right primers for the job is the big factor just like bt justice stated. then the next is load height(proper height for solid crisp flat fold crimp). with no give ect that can be achieved real easy with just the reloading press.

even with the gaep tool if your shot column height is not right the gaep tool will not get you any better deviation from shot to shot over just loading and finishing the hulls with the press and throwing them in the box. they might help some achieve better looking finished hulls. but in long run if there loading practice is not up to snuff even the best looking fold crimps from press or people that want another toy(gaep tool) on the loading bench. the loads will not perform at there best if the load is not right for the hull(tight fit),proper primer ect. that is were a chrony is a very good investment when you start testing all the loads out there be it steel,lead,bismuth,heavy-weight ect.

good post bt justice!!!!!
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Re: Gaep Crimpers

Postby C M Wings » Wed Feb 19, 2014 12:56 pm

BT Justice wrote:LOST ,I'm gonna try anf help here, I know it's not going to penetrate some of the mindsets but I'll try.

First off I have to agree with Lost in the fact that ANYTHING and I mean anything that helps make your loads more consistent is worth at least looking into. I don't own the Gaep crimpers so I can't say anything about them, but if they help with consistency then I can understand the enthusiasm with them.

Here's a load that I worked on for quite awhile, it's not a worse or better crimp load but rather one that shows the difference between good and bad ignition, which is what a better crimp will also help with.
This is my 16 ga steel shot load with two different primers, exact same load except for powder charge and primer.
First load with 30 grains of STEEL powder and Fiocchi 616 primer
1470 fps
1269 fps
1488 fps
1279 fps
1412 fps 1383 fps avg Hi/Lo spread 219 fps
Now same exact load with 28 grains of STEEL powder(minus 2 grains) and the CCI 209M primer
1564 fps
1532 fps
1523 fps
1520 fps
1585 fps 1544 fps AVG Hi/Lo spread 65 fps

Both of the above loads were made using the exact same components except primers and powder charge, same lot of powder, same machine, same day, etc. Yet the Fiocchi primed load gave worse performance and lower velocities despite having 2 grains more of powder. To top it all off the Fiocchi primed load patterned like crap while the CCI 209M primed load patterned very well and very consistently, while the FIocchi primed load gave pattern differences of 10 -12% from shot to shot.
While I'm on it, where did the others 2 grains of powder go if it wasn't being burned properly in the load, out the end of the barrel.
Which gets to the next thing, the Fiocchi primed load would also be what I considered an IFFY load pressure wise. Why, well obviously there's not a complete powder burn going on in some of the loads, so there's unburnt powder traveling down the barrel..no big deal right...WRONG. We have no control over when or if this powder will ignite and sometimes it's right at the end of the barrel. I've seen pressure spike's as high as 23,000 PSI occur at the end of a trace line (which is when whatever your shooting is exiting the barrel). I really am not sure if this is dangerous or not, but it can't be very good for patterning having that big a pressure spike when your shot column hits open air.
Having a tool like the Gaep crimper will not insure you get better performance from you loads, but I know better crimps give better performance and consistency, which helps a great deal.


So...... Changing critical components (primer and powder load) affects performance, and one combo works better and is more consistent for a zillion different reasons than another. OK, great. So... any chance of taking this good, consistent load and throwing a bunch of different crimps (good, poor, rolled, 8, 6, etc...) on it in sufficient number to be telling and see if they affect velocity, pressure, etc....?? That would be indicative of the effect of a crimp. I believe the change in primer and powder completely explain the disparity of the two mentioned loads. I see nothing that offers the effect of a crimp. Now I agree that a shell that shoots repeatably is a good thing; so I would choose shell B, and crimp them all the same. While you may get a few FPS and PSI differences between a RTO, GEAP, and petal crimp, I bet among themselves they remain too close to identical to ever blame on a miss. Practice with the load of choice removes a lot of statistical error - my 2 cents.
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Re: Gaep Crimpers

Postby 3200 man » Wed Feb 19, 2014 6:42 pm

CMwings , you are absolutely right , that's the final solution to a good load , in my mind ! :thumbsup:


Shoot what you shoot Best ! :hammer:
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Re: Gaep Crimpers

Postby UmatillaJeff » Wed Feb 19, 2014 7:10 pm

Look guys.... If I take a 10ga with large pellets say TT;s where I load exactly 70 pellets.

I take and pattern 10 of them I can assure you of one thing. In spite the fact that the load I use is very, very consistent I will have one pattern out of the bunch that will be a statistical anomaly. I will average 52 pellsts in a 30 inch circle at 60 yards. Some will fall as low as 48 and some will go as high as 57 but most as in 6 to 7 out of 10 will fall at 52 pellets.


It would be a simple to prove weather or not the device will put an extra pellet in the pattern or not. I suspect that while you may have more consistent velocity the pattern will not increase a single pellet. That is my hypothesis.

If consistent ammo made any difference when game shooting you would have clear winners every Thursday night.

We have from 20 to 45 guys show up and shoot games every Thursday night. There isn't a single man that dominates the wining! Why is that?

Well... The 4th and 5th and 6th man shots are an average of say 65 to 75-80 yards away. The 1 1/4 loads of 4's,5's and 6's that are the most common shells used by the guys who win the most have huge holes by the time you get out that far.

I win more then my share of pots and I can say with certainty that there isn't a man on that line who loads any better shells then I do and all I do is drop them with a progressive mec. If he does it doesn't show up when we are getting paid.

If weighing out a powder charge and putting a nice crimp won pots every guy on the line would do it.

It doesn't 3200 man and if you shoot games on any kind of serious basis you know what I am saying is true.

If you want to make yourselves feel good and extrapolate that better looking shells shoot better you are delusional.

There is not proof of any such thing.

Now... If you want to see me dominate the game? I will bring my modern day 8ga magnum and I will shoot 3 1/2 oz of lead 5's and I will have a pattern at 75 yards you can shoot starlings with!

A bird can not escape it if I put the barrel in the right place but I still can not break an 80 yard falling/ 6th man type of target every time and that gun has the pattern to do it!!

If you guys really want to kill more game and break more targets I I would bet the equity in the house I own that you would be far better off to practice shooting starlings in the off season in order to kill more ducks and geese and to shoot clay birds at 6o to 75 yards if you want to win fun and game shoots.

No crimping device is going to put you in the winners circle. Practice and experience are the only certain way to get it done.


Confidence in ones equipment is important but as long as your equipment is adequate it winning is mostly between the ears.

Skill is still what will put birds in the bag and money in the pocket.Jeff
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Re: Gaep Crimpers

Postby lostknife4 » Wed Feb 19, 2014 7:29 pm

Wow! If what you say is the only reason then why do Olympic Trap and Skeet shooters not use crap ammo and cheap guns? They certainly have the skill.....
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Re: Gaep Crimpers

Postby UmatillaJeff » Thu Feb 20, 2014 12:16 am

Nobody said to shoot crap ammo or cheap guns. Those Olymipic shooters would outshoot your ass with an 870 field gun and Estate promotional loads! But why? Because they can shoot. You can't even prove this thing does anything!

This silly crimping device will not make you a better shot the same way that 400 dollar a pound shot won't make you a better shot or put any more birds in your bag.

I guess after another season of watching guys miss 20- 40 yard birds all day long that I just do not have the confidence that the way to more birds in the bag is a magic crimping device!

This really is jack in the beanstalk bullshit if the truth be told. This is nothing more then magic beans!

Show me the proof that this device adds one more BB in a pattern. Show me the proof that this device lowers standard deviation even though with a shotgun it means little or nothing.

You boys focus on silly stuff and I will just keep shooting. Putting the focus anywhere but where it will do the most good seems to be the norm around this site.

Lets talk about magic crimps instead of looking at what will really put more birds in the bag!


You sportsman on this site are always talking about how you never shoot over 40 yards. If that is true.... How much difference in lead will you have if you could get your SD down to 20 FPs from say 100 FPS? Some factory ammo will vary that much and some crappy combos of handloads and can vary widely as well.

Do you think the poor combos are poor because they do not have a gaep crimp? Well what about the good combos that vary less then 50 FPS and also DO NOT have a gaep crimp? What about them? lets say we could get that down to 10FPS difference from one to the next.

How much will this affect our shooting at 40 yards? INCHES at the vary most. So it will make inches of difference where guys are missing by FEET!

That consistent ammo is also only going to help if that is the only ammo you shoot. If you shoot clays with a 1 0z load of lead at 1200 your consistency will be all off when you go to shoot steel at 1500 FPS.. Plus or minus 10FPS.


If this device did everything you boys think it MIGHT do.. It would do nothing that will put a bird in your bag outside of just being confident that you are doing all you can do to eliminate misses because of your shells.


Most of you shot ducks and geese for years with shells that worked far better then steel and the velocity swings were normally in excess of 75 FPS from one shell to the next . Didn't stop you then any more then this device will keep you from missing now or provide anything that you do not all ready have.

If you guys can prove me wrong, I would sure love to see it as I just need the proof to make me a buyer.

I want my crimps to be perfect!

I am just not silly enough to think it does ANYTHING without proof that it does and so far I have not seen actual proof .

I do know that a difference of 50 FPS is just a few inches at 40 yards though.... Now if only I could see guys missing by mere inches because they were so in tune with the shells they use that they are missing in front of the bird because this shell is fast and then behind the bird because this shell was slow.

We won't even get into the shot string that is many FEET LONG!!!
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Re: Gaep Crimpers

Postby BT Justice » Thu Feb 20, 2014 3:41 am

OK if crimps don't make a difference then why do worn out old hulls that have been reloaded 4 or 5 times give lower velocities and larger velocity spreads (which has been proven by several sources) than new or once fired hulls???
It's not going to make anyone an Olympic shooter, which by the way if anyone thinks they use standard ammo we can get our hands on your fooling yourselves, but it does help in the overall scheme of things.
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Re: Gaep Crimpers

Postby slowshooter » Thu Feb 20, 2014 4:22 am

Jeff,
I can understand the proof aspect - your argument is the same one I use when folks ask if they should buy a new piece of duck hunting gear.

And you are also right on another point, nothing replaces trigger time for the duck hunter or competitive shooter.

But for someone like me. Who measures every 5th shell out of my 9000 and works to get consistency of manufacture at every step of the way. I can say that the idea of the GAEP is appealing for two reasons. Each shell will feel the same when I pluck it out of the bag - and the crimp is so distinct it looks to be more consistent than my fold crimps.

The guys that I shoot with will attest to the fact that I'll lay two shell in my palm even before entering the box and just stare at them to do comparisons. For me that act is hypnotic and quells random mind wandering. The problem? When my crimps aren't exactly alike it makes me wonder what else might I might have to fix.

So I don't look at a roll crimper (specially the GAEP) as an immediate talisman against deviation -- but just another mouse step towards consistency of thought in the box as well as my consistency in manufacture getting ever so slightly better.

If I can do that… Win.

Granted, if I had one I would test the crap out of it and see what the general effect was on patterns with all my shotguns - and see how it directly affected my attention and attitude.

Applied in the real world, I shoot a lot of skeet. If I take a 1 1/8 load of 9s and my patterns go up by less than 1% using a GAEP. That's actually pretty darn good because if it takes 5 pellets (which is a number I'm pulling out of my butt) to break a clay - 6 pellets puts me above the minimum pellet count needed and right below the decimal point with a .91%.

Less than 1% on paper but still enough to card a break. Yay for me! :lol3: I don't even care if I don't hit the six pellet lottery on every shot.

Anyway that's my point of view. If it moves the needle in the right direction great. I'm not asking it to carry my game. But if it can make that burden, mentally and physically just a little lighter. Everything is moving in the right direction.

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Re: Gaep Crimpers

Postby C M Wings » Thu Feb 20, 2014 7:10 am

It takes 3-4, #9 pellets to break a clay if you ask around the trap or skeet range. Frankly I have no idea if that is correct.

What is correct is that NOTHING replaces trigger time. A 1% increase in pattern density is meaningless, regardless how it is achieved, because statistically I would offer it is in the noise of your gun/shell/weather combination overall statistic. 10%? Let's talk....

A consistent shell is important. Confidence in your gear is important. Pretty, not so much, unless that falls into your measure of consistency. If ALL my crimps are swirly and depressed in the middle, I expect ALL those shells will perform statistically the same. If I learn where they shoot, I will kill a lot of ducks or break a lot of targets. I was an AA trap shooter before it basically jut got too expensive to sustain the rating. I broke 99's and 100's with whatever shells I had at 16 yards. 7/8 reloads with recycled shot, or brand new SSTs or Nitros. The difference in the shells was a statistic non-factor. They were all between 1200 and 1300 FPS, and I knew where the gun put that pattern. Nothing else matters when you hit with the center of even a below average pattern. Dead bird.

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Re: Gaep Crimpers

Postby lostknife4 » Thu Feb 20, 2014 8:13 am

Fact is I use RTO crimps with frangible disks on a LOT of my loadings and for those that are segmented crimps I run them through a GAEP finishing tool as well. Yes I like the look of them and with over 50 years experience handloading I know how to set my MEC's to give very good crimps but I guess for the same reason I use TSS on game, I just want to send the best with the best possible preparation of something I can control. Along with trigger time, choke tube selection, barrel configuration and a whole host of other things IMHO I believe my ammo is more consistent using the GAEP than it ever was not using it. Proving that is on the bucket list.
Look guys if ya don't think it helps then just don't use it, but don't crap on us who do please, it's uncalled for and unwarranted especially from people who have never used one nor actually tested their velocities and patterns nor even done a statistical analysis ie Standard Deviation calculation, which I believe most of the Chronographs will do today, my Oehler 33 does it and it's quite old. So if you have done that, and it doesn't work for you, we would like to hear your constructive criticisms otherwise ..... well what can I say!
We have been discussing the merits of using a GAEP tool for hull crimp finishing and it appears that a lot of people have seen fit to try to get off the specific topic, some seem pertinent to me but others just argumentative for the sake of argument it seems IMHO.
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"It's not the game but the chase ~ not the trophy but the race !" from my Dad, many years ago.
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Re: Gaep Crimpers

Postby 3200 man » Thu Feb 20, 2014 8:38 am

I would certainly agree with you at that range/distance on 16 yd targets and even on birds inside 35 yds with shells off the
shelf but , having a load that will perform past 40 yds ( maybe 70% pattern ) is a lot different . Yes , it's just a shell loaded
with what-ever and it goes boom and if you ( some how ) hit the target , it's dead or broke .
This isn't about being satisfied with any shell , it's how we can load a shell with more consistency in velocity that looks good ,
every time ! This in our experience , is what makes us better shooters with better patterns and less shells shot to achieve a
limit of birds or a personal best at clay targets . just wondering ? you may have had that little percentage of lost targets go
away if you were shooting a better constructed shell ?

Yep , Trigger time for what-ever you shoot , will make you a better shooter ! NOOO Doubt :thumbsup:
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Re: Gaep Crimpers

Postby 3200 man » Thu Feb 20, 2014 9:01 am

Jeff I agree with you that skill is the most important part of shooting and for what-ever you are satisfied with in your loads

I hope we can meet someday and you can show me your skill and I can show you mine but , one thing will be obvious is ,

My loads will look better than yours ! And , who ever looses , buys the Beers :thumbsup:
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Re: Gaep Crimpers

Postby C M Wings » Thu Feb 20, 2014 9:28 am

Guys - I like a pretty shell and I'm about as anal about performance as one can get. I'm also an engineer who REALLY likes gadgets and toys when it comes to guns, and reloading... etc. I don't have a pretty Italian finishing tool, but I will! Gotta see what it's all about!

All I'm saying, as en engineer who works for the Army and has tested guns from .223 to 155-mm for going on 30 years - consistent ammo matters, and there are a LOT of ways to make ammo consistent. It instills confidence! So whatever you do to affect that - go for it! But there is no one single magic bullet, with the exception of trigger time. The perfect shell is still a lost bird if you don't know where it shoots.

As for that small percentage between AA and AAA? That is 100% mental, and picking the right shoots. Want to screw your average? Shoot on a windy, rainy day. Shoot where targets aren't set right (trap is all about repetition), or where the sun rises or sets in your eyes. Show up tired, moody, or unmotivated. These are the factors that separate a 95 from a 100. Not the shell. I broke lots of great scores with 7/8 reloads using recycled shot, and lots of average scores with 1-1/8 AA's, STS, and Nitro shells - which are the premier trap loads (and vice-versa). No. I knew where my TMX patterned, and when I missed, it was all on me.

As for ducks - like I've said on other threads, I hunt 95% decoying birds at 16 yards trap distances (35 yards and under). I can get away with a lesser quality shell like a 2-3/4 cheap Winchester or a 7/8 reload that may not be perfect. I kill a lot of ducks because I know my personal capabilities and limitations, and because I know what the ducks will do where I hunt, not because of the shell in my gun. In fact, I offer that's the least important factor for my conditions. Having ducks toll in where I want them is much more important - and if they don't, I'll shoot them another day.
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