Gaep Crimpers

Interact with others on shot gun shells, reloading, ballistics, chokes, or anything that has to do with your shooting.

Moderators: donell67, NV Guide, pennsyltucky, Ohio Wildfowler

Re: Gaep Crimpers

Postby 3200 man » Thu Feb 20, 2014 10:15 am

:beer: , We are Waterfowlers and clay target shooters and each one of us tries to stay within our ability , :thumbsup:

I just like to have the best ammo I can reload and shoot well , it's a decease I know and we have it , that use a Gaep tool ! :lol3:
3200 man
hunter
 
Posts: 2704
Joined: Thu Nov 12, 2009 10:30 am


Re: Gaep Crimpers

Postby C M Wings » Thu Feb 20, 2014 10:43 am

3200 - LOL!

Like I said, I have a pretty Italian finishing tool in my future. Were I really motivated I would apply that finish to 1,000 trap reloads and see if I can still break a good score..... Maybe step back to 27 yards and have a go....

Ducks
Ducks
C M Wings
hunter
 
Posts: 309
Joined: Tue Jan 22, 2008 2:35 pm

Re: Gaep Crimpers

Postby UmatillaJeff » Thu Feb 20, 2014 1:49 pm

3200 man wrote::beer: , We are Waterfowlers and clay target shooters and each one of us tries to stay within our ability , :thumbsup:

I just like to have the best ammo I can reload and shoot well , it's a decease I know and we have it , that use a Gaep tool ! :lol3:



AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH...................HONESTY AT LAST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


There is nothing wrong with wanting you ammo to look a certain way as it does mess with your head. I shot 50 straight one day from the 27 yard line with my buddy's reject shells that he was going to cut open. He said this and I will never forget it. You can do it but it would mess with my head too much. It's just not worth it to me!
Count all the times you shoot a bird on the water. This will teach you about how effective the shells you think are so great are.
UmatillaJeff
hunter
 
Posts: 545
Joined: Fri Jan 28, 2011 3:12 pm

Re: Gaep Crimpers

Postby UmatillaJeff » Thu Feb 20, 2014 2:03 pm

3200 man wrote:I would certainly agree with you at that range/distance on 16 yd targets and even on birds inside 35 yds with shells off the
shelf but , having a load that will perform past 40 yds ( maybe 70% pattern ) is a lot different . Yes , it's just a shell loaded
with what-ever and it goes boom and if you ( some how ) hit the target , it's dead or broke .
This isn't about being satisfied with any shell , it's how we can load a shell with more consistency in velocity that looks good ,
every time ! This in our experience , is what makes us better shooters with better patterns and less shells shot to achieve a
limit of birds or a personal best at clay targets . just wondering ? you may have had that little percentage of lost targets go
away if you were shooting a better constructed shell ?

Yep , Trigger time for what-ever you shoot , will make you a better shooter ! NOOO Doubt :thumbsup:



That is just it though 3200 man. You can't prove that the tool gives you a better pattern. You think it does because of the way it makes you FEEL.. the way it puts a smile on your face when you see that finished beauty going into the box.

At this point it's kind of like having an argument with a liberal. They make the argument based on emotion and not logic and there for you will never win unless you can make them feel your point makes more sense.


And sadly... Just like when arguing with a liberal.... When empirical data is not forthcoming to back up the position we have LOST saying...

Well... Don't pick on me just because you don't want to load shells the way we do.


You see the liberal takes his ball and goes home when he can't prove his point either.

I want perfect crimps and the warm fuzzy feeling... Just prove to me it does something other then saying it should make for more consistent velocity when we already have shells that provide all the consistency that a shot gunner can make use of!
Count all the times you shoot a bird on the water. This will teach you about how effective the shells you think are so great are.
UmatillaJeff
hunter
 
Posts: 545
Joined: Fri Jan 28, 2011 3:12 pm

Re: Gaep Crimpers

Postby lostknife4 » Thu Feb 20, 2014 2:45 pm

In the post by Chris you will read that he has in fact better results using RTO and finished GAEP crimped ammo, have you any data Jeff?
Lost
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=433201
"It's not the game but the chase ~ not the trophy but the race !" from my Dad, many years ago.
User avatar
lostknife4
hunter
 
Posts: 4329
Joined: Sat Apr 03, 2010 4:32 pm
Location: Eastern Canada

Re: Gaep Crimpers

Postby solway gunner » Thu Feb 20, 2014 3:12 pm

jeff,
One of the benefits the Gaep crimp finisher gives the end use is simplicity of use to finish off a shell to factory standard and in some cases much better. I understand that you may enjoy using you current press and take comfort in the knowledge that you can give taper and depth adjustment without any hassle every time you switch between hulls-eg 3.5" fed v rem,however,some guys find this process troublesome and time consuming.,the Gaep eliminates this process by only needing the depth of crimp setting correctly,therafter it finishes the shell for you.How about the guy with in a lot of folks eyes a lowly $20 lee load all turning out shells to embarrass remington or winchester?but more importantly ,loading shells on his plastic press that come morning after a previous nights loading session his crimps havent "popped " open?ballisticaly giving him a highly accurate shell with low deviation spread.,more so than his standard lee on its own could ever produce.So theres a major improvement for him yes?
Chris also just pointed out the importance of keeping crimps tight on used hulls-here we see the Gaep giving an advantage because of the taper profile it rolls and tucks into the final crimp ,giving a better burn rate and more consistent shell eliminating those bloopers that can happen once you get passed a couple of loadings.
By using the same principle loadings of slacker fitting wads in some hulls benefit with a gaep finish too -eg sam1s in new cheddite hulls can give within 10fps deviation spread-no horse fodder here ,which in turn cangive a minimal improvement in pattern density,but more importantly ensuring that powder burn rates are exellent,giving the all imprtant velocity consistency that we all crave and thats a fact.
Ever seen powder seeping by the gas seal of your wad in your loaded shells if you hold your shell up to the light?-run it under a gaep and thatl cure that old chestnut.
Finally,because of the alteration to the crimp ,i always recommend a 10% reduction or 2 grain decrease in powder charge to all loadings initialy to avoid a possible increase in breech pressure,in the same vain as the negative effect a standard "over crimped"with too much depth applied from a mec press can do also..although ,in some cases equivalent velocitys can be obtained with a Gaep finished shell vs std press crimp with by this powder reduction.
These are some of the real benefits of using one,whether its not enough to justify the end cost to some or just because some guys like to have the "best looking shells" with what seem like trivial improvements to others is up to the end user.

Finaly jeff,heres my no bullcrap challenge for you,load up shells that match these on a standard lee load all press and ill post you a crimp finisher of your choice/gauge free of charge just for your trouble..these are new 3"cheddite hulls.
Image
solway gunner
hunter
 
Posts: 1428
Joined: Thu Jan 10, 2008 10:50 am
Location: scotland uk

Re: Gaep Crimpers

Postby C M Wings » Thu Feb 20, 2014 6:03 pm

Them be puuuuuuuurdy! How do they shoot? OMG! Did I just ask that??? :hi: :lol3: :lol3:
Ducks
C M Wings
hunter
 
Posts: 309
Joined: Tue Jan 22, 2008 2:35 pm

Re: Gaep Crimpers

Postby 10gaOkie » Thu Feb 20, 2014 6:33 pm

If my good friends, here on DHC, choose to overlook the rto and gaep improved crimps, thats ok with me. What you guys like and choose to shoot really has no effect on my shooting. However, I dont make a living from proceeds from selling rto and gaep hardware, so I have nothing to benefit from trying to sway others into liking rto or gaep. There for, I have not gone to the trouble to show the difference in using these crimps. The only person that I need to convice is me. If just getting nice looking crimps were the only benefit to my reloads, I would most likely not bother to use them. In my pattern testing and time spent in the duck blind, both have shown me there is benefits in my reloads being better than before I used these two crimping methods. Both are more trouble and they take more time and effort, not to mention extra cost for equipment. I have said before, they both were worth the effort and extra cost for me. They may not be for you. For me to get 93% patterns at 50 yards with a 10ga load or 97% patterns at 45 yards with a 12ga load, I dont feel I could have reached those numbers without the extra time spent on crimps. So far, I think the improvement with a rto crimp is better than a gaep finished fold crimp. However, the time and effort is way more for the rto crimp and just gaep finish fold crimp.

Chris
10gaOkie
hunter
 
Posts: 2953
Joined: Sun Apr 17, 2005 8:38 pm
Location: OKC

Re: Gaep Crimpers

Postby UmatillaJeff » Thu Feb 20, 2014 6:53 pm

Thanks for the offer but I do not own a lee loader! Jeff
Count all the times you shoot a bird on the water. This will teach you about how effective the shells you think are so great are.
UmatillaJeff
hunter
 
Posts: 545
Joined: Fri Jan 28, 2011 3:12 pm

Re: Gaep Crimpers

Postby War Wagon » Thu Feb 20, 2014 6:59 pm

Do you think putting this rounded crimp on shells will make them feed better into your action ?..
User avatar
War Wagon
hunter
 
Posts: 972
Joined: Tue Mar 22, 2011 7:23 pm
Location: Green Bay Wisconsin

Re: Gaep Crimpers

Postby 3200 man » Thu Feb 20, 2014 7:23 pm

That's one of the good points of a Gaep finishing tool , look at the pictures Kevin has here , nice even tapered nose on those
NEW loaded hulls and you can see , these are very nice compressed loads , they come out that way every time you Gaep them !
3200 man
hunter
 
Posts: 2704
Joined: Thu Nov 12, 2009 10:30 am

Re: Gaep Crimpers

Postby 10gaOkie » Thu Feb 20, 2014 7:29 pm

A bull nosed crimp will definitely feed and cycle better than one that is not.

Chris
10gaOkie
hunter
 
Posts: 2953
Joined: Sun Apr 17, 2005 8:38 pm
Location: OKC

Re: Gaep Crimpers

Postby Jon Bergren » Thu Feb 20, 2014 10:55 pm

War Wagon wrote:Do you think putting this rounded crimp on shells will make them feed better into your action ?..


Absolutely, but you don't need to use a GAEP to do that. The mini press with the taper crimp will do it as well as sitting the load on a powder insert in the final crimp station and coming down slightly on it. The latter is done by feel. Ned S
Jon Bergren
hunter
 
Posts: 1356
Joined: Fri Mar 08, 2013 7:07 pm

Re: Gaep Crimpers

Postby UmatillaJeff » Thu Feb 20, 2014 11:32 pm

I just like the way the crimps look. I may well purchase one and if I do I will show you the results that will show weather or not it will indeed put a extra bird in the bag.

the velocity issue is a non issue with me. My 10ga ammo is very consistent using Allient steel powder. consistent enough to know that when I miss it is because I missed.

I want to see an increase in pellets in the pattern.

I mean Chris no offense by what I will say next but the fact of the matter is that you showed what a Roll crimp did in an certain situation with a certain load.

I have loads that do not require a roll crimp or a Gaep that will do the same.

Just like buffer.. show me a super load with buffer and I will show you one just as good without it or better. The load with buffer may do more pellets then the load without it, but I can show you another load entirely that will do as good or better then the buffered load.

What I find hysterical is that back when 10ga cases were as rare as hens teeth we used to shoot the crimps off a 3 1/2 inch case and then trim them down to a 2 7/8 inch length and load them with an 1 1/2 of lead 4's, buffer, and then roll crimp them closed.

We got an extra bang or two out of a case this way. People would tell us how we would have holes in our patterns because of the over shot card wad we roll crimped the case over. Fold crimps were the only way to go!

Never mind that all shells were roll crimped at one time!

Now we have people who believe the only way to get the types of numbers are to roll crimp! Well that just isn't so.

I have owned a roll crimp tool for nearly 40 years in 10ga, 12ga, and 28ga and have made use of them for special shells that I didn't want to mess up with I. E buckshot, or Hevi shot, or any number of other reasons. It certainly wasn't to increase performance.

I will buy one,. but if it doesn't put more pellets in a 30 inch circle at 60 yards I will sell it in short order.

Performance is all that matters to me.

My shells feed in any autoloader I shoot them in and if velocity spreads make any difference I seem to be able to make up for it with ability to shoot.

So for me... It will come down to holes in the pattern board and as much as I do want it to do that my hypothesis is that it will not.


If it does..... Nobody will be a bigger fan or a better salesperson then I will. Jeff
Count all the times you shoot a bird on the water. This will teach you about how effective the shells you think are so great are.
UmatillaJeff
hunter
 
Posts: 545
Joined: Fri Jan 28, 2011 3:12 pm

Re: Gaep Crimpers

Postby slowshooter » Fri Feb 21, 2014 2:27 am

So no matter what proof people provided you, would have said that it was just their load and gun... That's what you just did, right?
Not trying to start an argument but if you say that what the GAEP does doesn't matter - then when someone says it does - then you say they can't prove it... It's no longer incumbent upon them to do anything, they owe you nothing.

If someone says it works great for them and you pipe in that it doesn't work for them... It's incumbent on you to prove your assertion that it doesn't work for them. It's just that easy - and just kind of impossible.

All I'm saying is that that your ignorance about their setup, loads, guns, methodology and results is not just as good as their knowledge about how they achieved their results.

It goes in both directions as well. If you don't get good results - other people's good results aren't going to change. And they shouldn't be telling you to prove it either...

Just a thought.
All this for a bowl of borscht.
User avatar
slowshooter
hunter
 
Posts: 9019
Joined: Wed Apr 05, 2006 8:44 pm
Location: San Jose, CA

Re: Gaep Crimpers

Postby pedro13 » Fri Feb 21, 2014 5:19 am

The bn4 is for slower powders like asteel. Then they the otp for roll crimp. I thinks their stuff is top notch. It produces fine looking tubes. I use the fold crimp on certain loads and rto on others.
Attachments
image.jpg
image.jpg
pedro13
hunter
 
Posts: 27
Joined: Mon Jun 04, 2012 2:03 pm

Re: Gaep Crimpers

Postby slowshooter » Fri Feb 21, 2014 5:42 am

pedro13 wrote:The bn4 is for slower powders like asteel. Then they the otp for roll crimp. I thinks their stuff is top notch. It produces fine looking tubes. I use the fold crimp on certain loads and rto on others.


Those look pretty enough to marry.

Performance improvement for you noticeable?

Thanks!
All this for a bowl of borscht.
User avatar
slowshooter
hunter
 
Posts: 9019
Joined: Wed Apr 05, 2006 8:44 pm
Location: San Jose, CA

Re: Gaep Crimpers

Postby C M Wings » Fri Feb 21, 2014 6:11 am

OK, so I am a little confused - so please have patience....

The GAEP is a finishing tool that makes hull crimps "pretty enough to marry" (I laughed out loud when I read that...), and the RTO tool is used for making roll over crimps... Right??

So question (assuming what I said is right) - can you use a GAEP to improve a roll over crimp to give it that nice bull-nose for better feed, or does the RTO already do that?

Second - can you use an RTO tool on a fold crimp to get that same bull-nose effect if it indeed performs that function on a roll crimp?

I've never rolled or GAEP'd a shell, but I'm going to start. I like the way you guys "personalize" your shells using these tools. If it improves performance - gravy. I don't think I shoot well enough to be able to tell.

Ducks
Ducks
C M Wings
hunter
 
Posts: 309
Joined: Tue Jan 22, 2008 2:35 pm

Re: Gaep Crimpers

Postby rerhardt » Fri Feb 21, 2014 6:37 am

I know nothing about Gaep Crimpers but I have done a few roll crimps with slugs, What I do for really good looking/function crimps that are folded off my press is to lube the properly adjusted dies with a little minimal oil(inside the die) from a small brush, it really makes a difference, also applied about every two or so boxes on my mec resizer collar has been the ticket the life of the collar, my mec has over 51,000 rounds through it.
rerhardt
hunter
 
Posts: 72
Joined: Mon Jan 16, 2012 9:13 pm

Re: Gaep Crimpers

Postby lostknife4 » Fri Feb 21, 2014 7:56 am

C M Wings wrote:OK, so I am a little confused - so please have patience....

The GAEP is a finishing tool that makes hull crimps "pretty enough to marry" (I laughed out loud when I read that...), and the RTO tool is used for making roll over crimps... Right??

Right!
Image

So question (assuming what I said is right) - can you use a GAEP to improve a roll over crimp to give it that nice bull-nose for better feed, or does the RTO already do that?

Second - can you use an RTO tool on a fold crimp to get that same bull-nose effect if it indeed performs that function on a roll crimp?

The BN series Gaep heads are designed for various depths and I don't know if the RTO is the "proper" depth for a segmented crimp. I have used my RTO crimper , in 10 ga, before the BN series was made and acquired a BN in 10 ga after Kevin announced he was successful in getting GAEP to make the BN's.

I've never rolled or GAEP'd a shell, but I'm going to start. I like the way you guys "personalize" your shells using these tools. If it improves performance - gravy. I don't think I shoot well enough to be able to tell.

Ducks


Lost
"It's not the game but the chase ~ not the trophy but the race !" from my Dad, many years ago.
User avatar
lostknife4
hunter
 
Posts: 4329
Joined: Sat Apr 03, 2010 4:32 pm
Location: Eastern Canada

Re: Gaep Crimpers

Postby goosepit2007 » Fri Feb 21, 2014 7:59 am

Jon Bergren wrote:
War Wagon wrote:Do you think putting this rounded crimp on shells will make them feed better into your action ?..


Absolutely, but you don't need to use a GAEP to do that. The mini press with the taper crimp will do it as well as sitting the load on a powder insert in the final crimp station and coming down slightly on it. The latter is done by feel. Ned S



i have been using this tecnique for year with ten gauge new hulls and 12 gauge new hulls. it works great with stuborn new hulls, but know rcbs has 20 and 12 gauge taper dies that i put in my last open station. either way works great. if you have a mec set for 23/4 inch and you also have 3 inch set up take the 3 inch over to the 23/4 inch set up and put in the last station and you will not need the powder drop insert to get the extra taper . for 23/4 hulls use the powder insert the same pres. that is if you can not get the press set for taper to do that with just press ect.

go by fill and there will be plenty of taper way more then guy needs.

best part is there is no heat setting the crimp that in my opinion would take life away from the hulls.

goose
goosepit2007
hunter
 
Posts: 870
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2012 8:13 pm

Re: Gaep Crimpers

Postby 3200 man » Fri Feb 21, 2014 8:43 am

Rick

The warmth of the nose on the hull ( with the Gaep tool spinning ) softens the plastic of the nose , making it roll over
easier , I haven't seen hull mouths crack any more than crimping them cold but , maybe less ! I know one thing , a little lube
goes a long way in Gaeping a load ! Once you get the feel and the drill stop set , it's a breeze , to get very uniform loads !
3200 man
hunter
 
Posts: 2704
Joined: Thu Nov 12, 2009 10:30 am

Re: Gaep Crimpers

Postby lostknife4 » Fri Feb 21, 2014 8:54 am

I remember now why I kept this old Lee Loader Jr. I could never duplicate how well it would crimp the Winchester paper hulls compared to a MEC!!!!
I used the RTO Gaep on one and a BN2 Gaep on the other hulls after they had been crimped by the Jr. The third hull was Jr crimp only. I don't think the GAEP tools are deep enough to effect the petals after the Jr. had made the crimp but I can see very little difference maybe a bit on the roll over edge and slight taper. A BN#4 maybe would show some pressure against the petals but keep in mind these hulls were already crimped by Jr.
Lost

Image

Image
"It's not the game but the chase ~ not the trophy but the race !" from my Dad, many years ago.
User avatar
lostknife4
hunter
 
Posts: 4329
Joined: Sat Apr 03, 2010 4:32 pm
Location: Eastern Canada

Re: Gaep Crimpers

Postby 10Tenner » Fri Feb 21, 2014 8:59 am

Do you think putting this rounded crimp on shells will make them feed better into your action ?..

I was having issues with New Federal 10 hulls, crimps not very good. I even bought new tooling for my PW in hopes it would improve, but it did not. Because of the uneven top of the new hulls they would catch on the extractor slot in the barrel of my Gold 10's. Since using the Gaep tool head I have had not one shell catch on the extractor slot on the barrel. I purchased some new Remington hulls, and get great crimps.
My PW 800+ I was having to adjust the rounding on the final crimp station between WAA HS and Remington Gunclub and straight wall hulls, not to mention Estate hulls popping open after time. Now I just set the crimp depth and no Estate reloads opening up.
Is it worth the time for me to use the Geap tooling? To me it is!! 10Tenner
10Tenner
hunter
 
Posts: 145
Joined: Sat Nov 11, 2006 6:47 pm

Re: Gaep Crimpers

Postby UmatillaJeff » Fri Feb 21, 2014 10:49 am

slowshooter wrote:So no matter what proof people provided you, would have said that it was just their load and gun... That's what you just did, right?
Not trying to start an argument but if you say that what the GAEP does doesn't matter - then when someone says it does - then you say they can't prove it... It's no longer incumbent upon them to do anything, they owe you nothing.

If someone says it works great for them and you pipe in that it doesn't work for them... It's incumbent on you to prove your assertion that it doesn't work for them. It's just that easy - and just kind of impossible.

All I'm saying is that that your ignorance about their setup, loads, guns, methodology and results is not just as good as their knowledge about how they achieved their results.

It goes in both directions as well. If you don't get good results - other people's good results aren't going to change. And they shouldn't be telling you to prove it either...

Just a thought.




Yea... I have patterned many hundreds of 12ga and 10ga loads to come up with top performers that also require no additional bullshit such as buffer or another step in the reloading process. The loads I reload will do the same numbers as the finest loads I have seen here without these steps.

So.... Yes... If the tool won't make those loads perform at a higher level I will not bother with it's use at that will defy logic!

Hear me... I do not need a pretty crimp for my mental status.

My 10ga cases only go twice or maybe three times before they are no longer reloadable and the velocity from first reload to third reload is close enough that my misses are not related to inconsistent velocity.

I can't make you guys believe that shell to shell inconsistency isn't affecting weather or not you are missing a bird and that is fine.

If you want to think that you are missing birds because your shells vary by even as much as 100 fps that just isn't the case.

Look... you guys are always talking about how you all kill your birds so close and that you never shoot over 40 yards.

If that is true then since we are going to make assumptions that we can not prove with this tool then lets make some assumptions about the ducks you guys shoot.

If you never shoot over 40 it implies that the majority are shot far closer.. In fact you just made a post attesting to that vary thing.

So if a shell to shell inconsistency is mere inches at 40 yards... How much does it affect a shot at 10 yards? 20 yards?

The truth is that it amounts to nothing. Nothing that would or wouldn't affect killing a bird.

Look at a chart that shows the difference in ammo that goes 1550 FPS and ammo at 1350 fps with the smaller steel at 40 yards.

look at the difference in actual speed by the time they get to 40 yards and the difference in forward allowance.

It's so little that you can't make use of the extra speed where you need it most which is at longer range rather a ten or a 15 yard decoy shot.

So now we are going to ignore the fact that there are plenty of fine performing steel reloads with small amounts of standard deviation say less then 50 FPS with standard fold crimps and say that we can't shoot properly and accurately unless we get the deviation on a shot shell load down to less then that?

That is just deluding yourself of the truth.

If were are going to try and eliminate as many variables as possible in order to shoot as well as we can that is fine but lets not completely crap ourselves into delusional thought processes!

If you think that shells that vary by fewer then 50 FPS are going to put one extra bird in your bag it just isn't so.


Now put two extra steel TT's in a 30 inch circle at 60 yards? That would be a near 5% pattern increase with a pellet big enough to make a difference. If it can do that we will have something.
Count all the times you shoot a bird on the water. This will teach you about how effective the shells you think are so great are.
UmatillaJeff
hunter
 
Posts: 545
Joined: Fri Jan 28, 2011 3:12 pm

PreviousNext

Return to Shotshell, Reloading, Ballistics, & Chokes

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 10 guests