UmatillaJeff wrote:Yea... I have patterned many hundreds of 12ga and 10ga loads to come up with top performers that also require no additional bullshit such as buffer or another step in the reloading process. The loads I reload will do the same numbers as the finest loads I have seen here without these steps.
I've only had one steel load benefit from using buffer. But I ALWAYS use it with the old hevishot. If I was using an unfinished pellet like black cloud it would go in because that stuff just looks like it's made to bridge.
So.... Yes... If the tool won't make those loads perform at a higher level I will not bother with it's use at that will defy logic!
That's how most of us roll. Reloaders tend to be remarkably practical when it comes to getting results. If it works, do it again. If it works better, do it more!
Hear me... I do not need a pretty crimp for my mental status.
Good for you!
My 10ga cases only go twice or maybe three times before they are no longer reloadable and the velocity from first reload to third reload is close enough that my misses are not related to inconsistent velocity.
Seems like good practice to me.
I can't make you guys believe that shell to shell inconsistency isn't affecting weather or not you are missing a bird and that is fine.
Well sure it's tough to convince folks... While your belief is firm other folks believe in Murphy's Law and the Black Swan.
If you want to think that you are missing birds because your shells vary by even as much as 100 fps that just isn't the case.
Can't cherry pick an attribute and say that's what everyone is basing their argument upon. Most folks really could give a crap about speed. Patterns are where it's at. On the other hand. Speed does count to me - and honestly I'm probably one of few... And that's because I'm stupid enough to shoot skeet and clays with 1 ounce (sometime 7/8ths) and I use a Terror .655. So I can easily tell when I switch between speeds on shells. That 100 fps or more can really **** with ya when your pattern is literally the size of a fist.
Look... you guys are always talking about how you all kill your birds so close and that you never shoot over 40 yards.
And so most guys do. But those birds seem to have minds of their own. Especially geese. I'm sure not using hevishot to shoot in my face teal. I've shot plenty of ducks and geese at longer distances. I certainly don't like to do that, but sometimes those days define themselves and there's not much to do be very careful about not stretching your skill set and shell farther than is ethical.
If that is true then since we are going to make assumptions that we can not prove with this tool then lets make some assumptions about the ducks you guys shoot.
can't prove it. I trust the guys that say they get better patterns - and I trust them when they say they get better consistency. The truth is that while it works for them, I don't know if it would work for me any more than you know that it would work for you. But presuming that they are lying, incapable of measuring or simply can't achieve what they say they have just isn't my thing. Assumptions are a logic killer.
If you never shoot over 40 it implies that the majority are shot far closer.. In fact you just made a post attesting to that vary thing.
I do prefer to shoot tighter than longer. Mainly because I prefer a butcher shot to a passing shot. But that has nothing to do with what other results folks are getting with a GAEP.
So if a shell to shell inconsistency is mere inches at 40 yards... How much does it affect a shot at 10 yards? 20 yards?
Like I said mere inches mean something when shooting tight. If I miss at 30 yards with an IC I'm not off by a little. But a lot. Anyone can do the math and see how far an average clay can travel while a specific speed load goes by. It's usually not much unless you are shooting big boy targets and those are still being thrown at certain clubs and big tournaments that are genuine tests of skill.
The truth is that it amounts to nothing. Nothing that would or wouldn't affect killing a bird.
Look at a chart that shows the difference in ammo that goes 1550 FPS and ammo at 1350 fps with the smaller steel at 40 yards.
look at the difference in actual speed by the time they get to 40 yards and the difference in forward allowance.
I don't disagree at all. We're saying the same thing on how shot passes a target and how fast.
It's so little that you can't make use of the extra speed where you need it most which is at longer range rather a ten or a 15 yard decoy shot.
So now we are going to ignore the fact that there are plenty of fine performing steel reloads with small amounts of standard deviation say less then 50 FPS with standard fold crimps and say that we can't shoot properly and accurately unless we get the deviation on a shot shell load down to less then that?
That is just deluding yourself of the truth.
I don't remember anyone saying that at all. In fact the only person that is arguing that it's not worth it (you) has had to create an argument based solely on travel and distance - and the resulting delta from different speeds. I think when folks use the term consistency they mean more than speed.
If were are going to try and eliminate as many variables as possible in order to shoot as well as we can that is fine but lets not completely crap ourselves into delusional thought processes!
So the folks that have stated they have achieved better patterns are delusional? That's not a fair statement particularly if you haven't actually used the tool yet. Secondly some folks may simply have higher standards than you when it comes to patterns. If some have eliminated all the variables they can, well that's great for them. To my recollection, no one has said ignore other shells either. Really, the idea that "good enough is good enough" is fine. But for those whose hobby it is to chase perfection? More power to them. It's those guys over the decades that have provided incremental improvements to reloading that are still in use today.
If you think that shells that vary by fewer then 50 FPS are going to put one extra bird in your bag it just isn't so.
You created this argument so you can define it any way you choose.
Now put two extra steel TT's in a 30 inch circle at 60 yards? That would be a near 5% pattern increase with a pellet big enough to make a difference. If it can do that we will have something.
Well, it might be good for you to give it a try before you say it's not worth doing, or insinuating that folks aren't achieving the results they say that they have.
If you can make a better load happen that would be awesome! I support your efforts to push the boundaries and hopefully if the change is wide spread after folks work up some loads maybe we'll all be using a GAEP in 10 years.
All this for a bowl of borscht.