Why Incredibly Fast Shells

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Re: Why Incredibly Fast Shells

Postby Beretta06 » Sun Mar 02, 2014 11:31 am

BT Justice wrote:
Beretta06 wrote:
Theduckguru wrote:
Beretta06 wrote:
Rob MacK wrote:One last note, a 1 1/4oz load of #2 steel started at 1400fps will kill mallard sized ducks all day long at 60 yards if you can a) keep the pattern together (something that is easily possible with even factory chokes) and b)put the pattern on the bird.

I've still never heard a viable explanation as to why or how fast loads "kill better".

Frank


Frank,

What load of steel 2s did you get to hold to 60 yds? Choke gun combo?

Rob


All the data on my reloading bench says #2s at 1400fps run out of energy at 51-52 yards. That data is from reputable sources such as rsi and BP. How do you get your 2s to fly so far? I'm just curious!

Dwight


Maybe you should use the Consep Lethality Table instead of data from 2 salesmen in Minnesota. I agree with the CLT and Frank that #2 shot @ 1400 fps is a suitable selection for long range large ducks (typical activity 45-65 yards).


I forgot explain to me your theory behind the 2 salesman from Minnesota. That are printing bad data on the magical #2. I would really like to hear it. (:

Dwight

I'm still waiting on franks explanation for the above comment . Since Frank is the expert in 3" 1-1/4 oz #2s @1400 fps how does that load fair on high wind days?

Dwight
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Re: Why Incredibly Fast Shells

Postby Frank Lopez » Sun Mar 02, 2014 11:54 am

Beretta06 wrote:I'm still waiting on franks explanation for the above comment . Since Frank is the expert in 3" 1-1/4 oz #2s @1400 fps how does that load fair on high wind days?

Dwight


Dwight, it depends on your definitions. Somewhere along the line, someone came up with some arbitrary number for the "minimum penetration in ballistic gel" and all was good in the world. And, although he didn't develop the idea, L.P. Brezny championed the 600fps rule. Brezny had the pulpit as the ballistic editor for Wildfowl magazine, so whatever he published must be true. It says so right there in black and white. Unfortunately, it isn't quite true and has been proven to be inaccurate (see HERE). Others, notably Roster, have used reams of empirical data to arrive at a different set of criteria. Personally, I've found the latter to be more accurate.

As far as the wind is concerned, allowances have always had to be made, even when we used lead. Back in the 60's there were a lot of guys that used #7 1/2s to good effect out to 40 yards. Of course, they were using some very tight chokes and putting the patterns on the head and neck. But, when the shooting was best, on those days on the leading edge of a front or in a nor'easter, the #7 1/s were left in the bag and out came the #4s. Pretty much the same today with steel. When the wind is up, you've got two choices. Use heavier shot or cut down your range. Sometimes, when the shooting is real good, you have to do both.

Frank
I feel slightly sorry for a man who has never patterned his gun, who has no idea how far his chosen load will retain killing penetration. But I'm extremely sorry for the ducks he shoots at beyond the killing range of his gun and load - Bob Brister
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Re: Why Incredibly Fast Shells

Postby Mugzwump » Sun Mar 02, 2014 12:30 pm

steelshotshooter wrote:Mugz,

are you referring to "shot string"?
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.



I guess you could say that I am. Typically I imagine "shot string" as the pellets traveling together in the pattern ALL at similar velocity... but with thinking that the shotcup goes through serious deceleration during the release of the pattern, what is really happening down range with the pattern is half the pellets are not only behind the other half, but traveling much slower and elongating the shot string as distance goes. So you could say, putting pellets up on paper does frick-all when it's time to kill ducks as you're looking at the entire scenario at once while a ducks death happens in a millisecond time frame where half the pellets are past it, and the other half still a few feet away going too slow to kill it anyways.

Anyone know of any up close high speed camera footage of flying ducks getting shot at ?? :hammer:

Lol... round we go. I really can't wait till the snow geese show up and I'll finally get the frig up off my couch.

Mugz.
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Re: Why Incredibly Fast Shells

Postby Mugzwump » Sun Mar 02, 2014 12:35 pm

Frank Lopez wrote:
As far as the wind is concerned, allowances have always had to be made, even when we used lead. Back in the 60's there were a lot of guys that used #7 1/2s to good effect out to 40 yards. Of course, they were using some very tight chokes and putting the patterns on the head and neck. But, when the shooting was best, on those days on the leading edge of a front or in a nor'easter, the #7 1/s were left in the bag and out came the #4s. Pretty much the same today with steel. When the wind is up, you've got two choices. Use heavier shot or cut down your range. Sometimes, when the shooting is real good, you have to do both.

Frank


That is really well said Frank! We used #4's almost exclusively and on the coast of James bay the wind was always up.. we'd shoot "with the wind" leading a certain amount in whichever direction for the effects of the wind that day. Rain, sleet and snow are also a pain in the A when it comes to putting the shot on the bird.

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Re: Why Incredibly Fast Shells

Postby Mugzwump » Sun Mar 02, 2014 12:37 pm

Next time there is 1/2" hail raining down try patterning those high speed 7/8 oz loads... :wink:

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Re: Why Incredibly Fast Shells

Postby steelshotshooter » Sun Mar 02, 2014 12:46 pm

I do know that with loads like the 1,600+ fps. 7/8 oz. loads, they have the shortest "shot string" of all! That's another reason why I like them, you either have a clean kill or a clean miss. Very very few crippled birds...

If I can find my notes, I have done a series of shot string tests with an electronic counter, that measures speed from first pellet strike to last pellet strike, recording shot string length...

Snow geese! We have been on a couple of the COLG hunts and have killed a couple hundred birds so far. Three of us are shooting 7/8 oz. of T steel in 12 ga.. We have a hunt planned for next week and will be shooting 7/8 oz. of BB's for that trip, and compare it to out T load kill ratio....
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Addendum: 1/2" hail!!! I believe I'll have to sit that one out.... :beer:
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Last edited by steelshotshooter on Sun Mar 02, 2014 12:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Why Incredibly Fast Shells

Postby Theduckguru » Sun Mar 02, 2014 12:48 pm

Beretta06 wrote:
BT Justice wrote:
Beretta06 wrote:
Theduckguru wrote:
Beretta06 wrote:
Rob MacK wrote:One last note, a 1 1/4oz load of #2 steel started at 1400fps will kill mallard sized ducks all day long at 60 yards if you can a) keep the pattern together (something that is easily possible with even factory chokes) and b)put the pattern on the bird.

I've still never heard a viable explanation as to why or how fast loads "kill better".

Frank


Frank,

What load of steel 2s did you get to hold to 60 yds? Choke gun combo?

Rob


All the data on my reloading bench says #2s at 1400fps run out of energy at 51-52 yards. That data is from reputable sources such as rsi and BP. How do you get your 2s to fly so far? I'm just curious!

Dwight


Maybe you should use the Consep Lethality Table instead of data from 2 salesmen in Minnesota. I agree with the CLT and Frank that #2 shot @ 1400 fps is a suitable selection for long range large ducks (typical activity 45-65 yards).


I forgot explain to me your theory behind the 2 salesman from Minnesota. That are printing bad data on the magical #2. I would really like to hear it. (:

Dwight

I'm still waiting on franks explanation for the above comment . Since Frank is the expert in 3" 1-1/4 oz #2s @1400 fps how does that load fair on high wind days?

Dwight


The two salesman in Minnesota sell loading components and publish reloading data. They promote their products, neither has done any real field testing of any thing they sell. Both promote very high velocity loads, its marketing. So it you are relying on their data, that's up to you.

Depending on who's data you decide to use, a #2 steel pellet launched at 1400 fps will have 2.1-2.6 ft/lb of energy at 60 yard. That is enough to take mallards. The next time you find yourself with a mallard at a range you limit the load you are using, I encourage you to accelerate your swing as you pull the trigger and see what happens.
Last edited by Theduckguru on Sun Mar 02, 2014 12:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Why Incredibly Fast Shells

Postby Frank Lopez » Sun Mar 02, 2014 12:56 pm

Mugzwump wrote:Typically I imagine "shot string" as the pellets traveling together in the pattern ALL at similar velocity... but with thinking that the shotcup goes through serious deceleration during the release of the pattern, what is really happening down range with the pattern is half the pellets are not only behind the other half, but traveling much slower and elongating the shot string as distance goes. So you could say, putting pellets up on paper does frick-all when it's time to kill ducks as you're looking at the entire scenario at once while a ducks death happens in a millisecond time frame where half the pellets are past it, and the other half still a few feet away going too slow to kill it anyways.

Anyone know of any up close high speed camera footage of flying ducks getting shot at ?? :hammer:

Lol... round we go. I really can't wait till the snow geese show up and I'll finally get the frig up off my couch.

Mugz.


Not a close up of ducks being hit by the shot string, or even a proper shotgun, but it does serve to illustrate what happens to the pellets when they are fired. Keep in mind that this is an anti personnel load fired out of a 120mm cannon mounted on an M1A1 Abrams tank. The "shot" in this case, consists of 7/8 inch diameter tungsten balls and the cannon, of course, has no choke. But the basic aerodynamic effect on the load is the same. You can see that as the shot charge exits the muzzle, excepting some flyers, the shot stays fairly compact for a few yards. Then, as the load begins to slow, air pressure has a greater and greater effect. The shot peels out of the formation much like peeling a banana. As this shot migrates out of the core it reaches some point where it is on its own, so to speak. This is when the pellet, without the help of its brethren, succumbs to the effect of air pressure at a greater rate and begins to really trail the main body of shot. What is interesting is that while the pattern is still somewhat effective, the bulk of the shot, probably somewhere around 2/3s the total, reside in the front third of the shot string. This is the part of the shot string that does the killing. On the other hand, the rear two thirds of the string/pattern, are relatively thin. This is the part that cripples. We often call it fringing.

Anyway, HERE'S THE VIDEO. Have a look.

Frank
I feel slightly sorry for a man who has never patterned his gun, who has no idea how far his chosen load will retain killing penetration. But I'm extremely sorry for the ducks he shoots at beyond the killing range of his gun and load - Bob Brister
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Re: Why Incredibly Fast Shells

Postby Frank Lopez » Sun Mar 02, 2014 1:03 pm

steelshotshooter wrote:I do know that with loads like the 1,600+ fps. 7/8 oz. loads, they have the shortest "shot string" of all! That's another reason why I like them, you either have a clean kill or a clean miss. Very very few crippled birds...


That's because they have fewer pellets to begin with! :biggrin:

Seriously, though, I can believe it. The reason, I believe, is that you start out with a shorter shot column. This (again, in my opinion) creates a smaller lateral component to the forces incurred on ignition. Shortening the shot column height has long been known to improve patterns. As far as crippling goes, I don't believe shot string, either long or shot, to be a factor at normal waterfowl ranges. Once the range gets to 50 yards and beyond, yes, but then only on direct crossing shots.

Frank
I feel slightly sorry for a man who has never patterned his gun, who has no idea how far his chosen load will retain killing penetration. But I'm extremely sorry for the ducks he shoots at beyond the killing range of his gun and load - Bob Brister
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Re: Why Incredibly Fast Shells

Postby Mugzwump » Sun Mar 02, 2014 1:12 pm

Frank Lopez wrote:
Mugzwump wrote:Typically I imagine "shot string" as the pellets traveling together in the pattern ALL at similar velocity... but with thinking that the shotcup goes through serious deceleration during the release of the pattern, what is really happening down range with the pattern is half the pellets are not only behind the other half, but traveling much slower and elongating the shot string as distance goes. So you could say, putting pellets up on paper does frick-all when it's time to kill ducks as you're looking at the entire scenario at once while a ducks death happens in a millisecond time frame where half the pellets are past it, and the other half still a few feet away going too slow to kill it anyways.

Anyone know of any up close high speed camera footage of flying ducks getting shot at ?? :hammer:

Lol... round we go. I really can't wait till the snow geese show up and I'll finally get the frig up off my couch.

Mugz.


Not a close up of ducks being hit by the shot string, or even a proper shotgun, but it does serve to illustrate what happens to the pellets when they are fired. Keep in mind that this is an anti personnel load fired out of a 120mm cannon mounted on an M1A1 Abrams tank. The "shot" in this case, consists of 7/8 inch diameter tungsten balls and the cannon, of course, has no choke. But the basic aerodynamic effect on the load is the same. You can see that as the shot charge exits the muzzle, excepting some flyers, the shot stays fairly compact for a few yards. Then, as the load begins to slow, air pressure has a greater and greater effect. The shot peels out of the formation much like peeling a banana. As this shot migrates out of the core it reaches some point where it is on its own, so to speak. This is when the pellet, without the help of its brethren, succumbs to the effect of air pressure at a greater rate and begins to really trail the main body of shot. What is interesting is that while the pattern is still somewhat effective, the bulk of the shot, probably somewhere around 2/3s the total, reside in the front third of the shot string. This is the part of the shot string that does the killing. On the other hand, the rear two thirds of the string/pattern, are relatively thin. This is the part that cripples. We often call it fringing.

Anyway, HERE'S THE VIDEO. Have a look.

Frank


LOL... well that would definitely work in the goose pit. Thanks!

Mugz.
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Re: Why Incredibly Fast Shells

Postby Beretta06 » Sun Mar 02, 2014 4:22 pm

Mugzwump wrote:Next time there is 1/2" hail raining down try patterning those high speed 7/8 oz loads... :wink:

Mugz.


As funny as that may sound I have a permanant pattern board club just to see if there is any noticeable differance in differant weather conditions in pattern.

Just because I wonder,

My grandfather and grandmother shot 1-1/4oz of 4s @1200fps from Thier 16 gauges in the cheasapeake bay in late 30s 40s and 50s before they moved west. Which he assured me was plenty to kill black ducks in the backbay. And cans from sink boxes.

If you take 1/16oz of 3s and raise the velocity to 1730 you get a really close recreation of that lod 1-1/4 #4 lead load. Pellet count wise as well as downrange energy. I taylor make the round to pattern well from 25yd to 50 yd.

I found with the 3.5" 1-1/2oz loads along time ago that getting a steel load to throw a decent pattern from 25 to 60 yards wasn't going to be accomplished by one single choke, nether was 1-3/8oz nor 1-1/4 oz, I'm seriously not changing chokes during the day, so I choose to limit shots into the 25-30 yard to 50 yard window.
I have shot the same blind on the family club for 27 years i have tried so many loads and chokes.

Over the years I've come to the conclusion the simplifying guns, gear, and ammo is best.1-1/16oz of #3s covers me for decoys to 50yards I sneak in a 55yard shot here and there. Closeing Saturday was a perfect example I took to pintails about the 35 yard range a widgeon at about 40 yards 3 greenwings at in the 20 to 25 yard range, and a redhead in the 50 to 55 yard range, which is really pushing the yardage on the way I have the combination set up. It's a bit tight a 25yard and maybe a little open at 55.

I do not need a round that shoots to 65yd. If your 1-1/4 oz of 2s does great for you. In my situation it is unnecessary, I can get more rounds per lb of shot with what I need anymore is just a waste.

Where I do find 1-1/4 oz 2s very handy is when the N/W wind blows in Los Banos. When we have a sustained wind of 35-40mph and gusts to 50-55 mph I currently use 1-1/4 oz of 2s at 1615fps. I don't use them for distance but rather, an upgrade in shot size for wind deflection, windy days at our place is a pick and choose day, shot are usually in the 35 yard range usually on the deck, I am testing this summer and rsi load of 1-1/8oz 2s @1635 fps as I realize pellet count is not an issue on windy days as I don't take small ducks in this situation 1-1/8oz 2s is probably enough we will see what the pattern board says.

Ps I have 2 gunny sacks full of the wooden decoys they used!

Dwight
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Re: Why Incredibly Fast Shells

Postby Jon Bergren » Sun Mar 02, 2014 4:53 pm

I started hunting with my Fathers Hunting Club in 1939. I was 11 yrs old and turned 12 the following Dec. I shot a SxS Crescent Davis 20 gage and couldn't miss. I stayed right with the Old Timers in the blind. I missed hunting while in College 46 thru '50. Then I only got to hunt Thanksgiving weekend. I lived in SE Iowa and hunted the timber on Huron Island. We hunted the migration and when I went to work after college I had to pick my vacation week two months ahead of time. 33% of the time I hit it right. I moved to Texas in '74 and got to hunt the Wintering waterfowl. It wasn't if you were going to ger your limit but how long it would take.
When I was 4 yrs old, I got to go to duck camp which was like a deer camp. They had two WW1 tents, one for sleeping and one for lounging, cooking and eating. They had 100 live decoys and 5 fliers. We also had a flier hen named Suzy. She didn't fly out to the live decoys but went and joined the wild ones and brought them in coming back and inside the blind while they blasted them. I would feed a few grains of corn as a reward. At home she was my pet duck and followed me all around the yard. I remember piles of mallards over my head tall. I tell friends I was born in a duck blind. Ned S Who still has his SxS.
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Re: Why Incredibly Fast Shells

Postby steelshotshooter » Sun Mar 02, 2014 5:12 pm

Great story Ned, thanks for sharing...

You got a picture of that old double gun you could post....
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Re: Why Incredibly Fast Shells

Postby Mugzwump » Sun Mar 02, 2014 5:34 pm

Beretta06 wrote:
Mugzwump wrote:Next time there is 1/2" hail raining down try patterning those high speed 7/8 oz loads... :wink:

Mugz.


As funny as that may sound I have a permanant pattern board club just to see if there is any noticeable differance in differant weather conditions in pattern.

Just because I wonder,

My grandfather and grandmother shot 1-1/4oz of 4s @1200fps from Thier 16 gauges in the cheasapeake bay in late 30s 40s and 50s before they moved west. Which he assured me was plenty to kill black ducks in the backbay. And cans from sink boxes.

If you take 1/16oz of 3s and raise the velocity to 1730 you get a really close recreation of that lod 1-1/4 #4 lead load. Pellet count wise as well as downrange energy. I taylor make the round to pattern well from 25yd to 50 yd.

I found with the 3.5" 1-1/2oz loads along time ago that getting a steel load to throw a decent pattern from 25 to 60 yards wasn't going to be accomplished by one single choke, nether was 1-3/8oz nor 1-1/4 oz, I'm seriously not changing chokes during the day, so I choose to limit shots into the 25-30 yard to 50 yard window.
I have shot the same blind on the family club for 27 years i have tried so many loads and chokes.

Over the years I've come to the conclusion the simplifying guns, gear, and ammo is best.1-1/16oz of #3s covers me for decoys to 50yards I sneak in a 55yard shot here and there. Closeing Saturday was a perfect example I took to pintails about the 35 yard range a widgeon at about 40 yards 3 greenwings at in the 20 to 25 yard range, and a redhead in the 50 to 55 yard range, which is really pushing the yardage on the way I have the combination set up. It's a bit tight a 25yard and maybe a little open at 55.

I do not need a round that shoots to 65yd. If your 1-1/4 oz of 2s does great for you. In my situation it is unnecessary, I can get more rounds per lb of shot with what I need anymore is just a waste.

Where I do find 1-1/4 oz 2s very handy is when the N/W wind blows in Los Banos. When we have a sustained wind of 35-40mph and gusts to 50-55 mph I currently use 1-1/4 oz of 2s at 1615fps. I don't use them for distance but rather, an upgrade in shot size for wind deflection, windy days at our place is a pick and choose day, shot are usually in the 35 yard range usually on the deck, I am testing this summer and rsi load of 1-1/8oz 2s @1635 fps as I realize pellet count is not an issue on windy days as I don't take small ducks in this situation 1-1/8oz 2s is probably enough we will see what the pattern board says.

Ps I have 2 gunny sacks full of the wooden decoys they used!

Dwight


Have you noticed anything as far as weather vs. pattern? All I know is some days the wind blows hard, big stuff falls from the sky and it's damn hard to keep my eyes open never mind hit anything flying.

I've only been shooting steel since 1999 and even then where I come from most people didn't know about the changes to the rules, I should say I often shot lead probably right up to about 2004. A lot of the native guys refused to change ways, and thus people we're given grace periods, a lot of guys up there are sustenance hunters. I don't think we ever saw a game warden.

So, I don't have as many years with the steel stuff as most guys here... maybe I am still in the dark ages with it.

I shoot the stuff off the shelf, I only load the fancy HD crap to experiment with it. I have yet to see anything worth while with the prices and decent steel rounds are cheap as it is.

Normally I'll shoot 1 1/4 oz, sometime the 1 3/8 oz stuff. What I do is bring different shot sizes, I carry #4 up to BBB and some times T. All of it is around 1300-1450 fps. I'll still carry 3 or 4 chokes, I often use a full choke, I feel I make more head shots with it, and birds come down dead, where as the mod or imp has a wide pattern and my hits are a bit all over. Close range over decoys I'll run the mod or imp and anything past 35 yards or in wind I'll shoot full.

Will I ever change my ways? probably not.. I don't miss very often and I'm not ever wondering *** is wrong with my shooting.

I think it's crazy to limit your load to 7/8 oz... but I've seen crazier, thinking about those lead days I remember a kid I met on the mud flats.. I was near the Hannah bay bird sanctuary in northern Ontario. This kid was maybe 13 or 14 years old. Well he was dropping passing geese with a .22 cal lever action at about 25 or 30 yards out. He says "I ran out of shells for my pump." lol... He had a few more birds than I did and I was shooting a .410 single.

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Re: Why Incredibly Fast Shells

Postby lostknife4 » Sun Mar 02, 2014 6:03 pm

Mugzwump wrote:
Frank Lopez wrote:
Mugz.



Anyway, HERE'S THE VIDEO. Have a look.

Frank


LOL... well that would definitely work in the goose pit. Thanks!

Mugz.[/quote]

Just imagine what that would do if the wad and shot was spinning as it left the barrel instead of just the wad tumbling!
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Re: Why Incredibly Fast Shells

Postby Jon Bergren » Sun Mar 02, 2014 6:40 pm

lostknife4 wrote:
Mugzwump wrote:
Frank Lopez wrote:
Mugz.



Anyway, HERE'S THE VIDEO. Have a look.

Frank


LOL... well that would definitely work in the goose pit. Thanks!

Mugz.


Just imagine what that would do if the wad and shot was spinning as it left the barrel instead of just the wad tumbling!
Lost[/quote]

The shotcup/shot can spin and does, the reason is one of first things you learn in Engineering. Hastings grooved their barrels to stop the spin. Ned S
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Re: Why Incredibly Fast Shells

Postby Beretta06 » Sun Mar 02, 2014 6:56 pm

I think we changed over in 88 or 89 the change was so abrupt the only manufacturer that was supplying was federal. If I remember right. Lucky you. You didn't suffer through the first Gen of steel.we went straight to reloading as soon as rsi and mec had components. The first try at reloading was a mec recipe AA hull 800x powder. 1-1/16 I think. 1383fps and was a vast improvement on the garbage 1st gen factory loads.

Ithica model 37 is a bottom ejecting pump based on a John Browning design. Which ultimately was the design for the BPS.

If you think those were good story's imagine if you were able to shoot black ducks on the back bay of the Chesapeake bay a night during a full moon.and it wasn't illegal back then. That story by far was always my favorite.

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Re: Why Incredibly Fast Shells

Postby Mugzwump » Sun Mar 02, 2014 7:18 pm

Beretta06 wrote:I think we changed over in 88 or 89 the change was so abrupt the only manufacturer that was supplying was federal. If I remember right. Lucky you. You didn't suffer through the first Gen of steel.we went straight to reloading as soon as rsi and mec had components. The first try at reloading was a mec recipe AA hull 800x powder. 1-1/16 I think. 1383fps and was a vast improvement on the garbage 1st gen factory loads.

Ithica model 37 is a bottom ejecting pump based on a John Browning design. Which ultimately was the design for the BPS.

If you think those were good story's imagine if you were able to shoot black ducks on the back bay of the Chesapeake bay a night during a full moon.and it wasn't illegal back then. That story by far was always my favorite.

Dwight

Yep.. we did quite a bit of duck shooting off the bow of a 26 footer with a 60 hp going full tilt just as the sun went down, which was around 10pm or so up there... We'd chase down flocks of ducks, geese and brants till it go too dark to see them. We didn't know know if it was legal or not we never even thought about the rules back then. Wasn't anyone saying you couldn't. We had no season and no limits for most of my childhood and then some.. well all the natives are still without any restrictions.. Its still the just as wild as the wild is. Quite something though to go back, opening day of the season and you can go 100 miles in either direction and not find another hunter. Can't replace that.

Yea. we had out share of woes with the steel too...maybe not as bad as you. Mostly we didn't know anything about it, no internet, no one reloading, a whole bunch of rumors no one knew what was what, we just missed a lot of birds... hence the grace periods etc.. we often couldn't even buy steel shells.. we were forced to use whatever the general store had. be it lead, steel, 10, 20, 16, 12.. .410 we shot whatever was in stock. Just the way it was.

Love the ithacas... We've got a featherlight model 37 in 12 ga.

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Re: Why Incredibly Fast Shells

Postby Jon Bergren » Sun Mar 02, 2014 8:01 pm

When steel was mandated in Texas, I reloaded this load from RSI that said, "DO NOT USE AS RECIPE INGO.
GM hull
Win 209 primer
30.5 grs 'SR 4756
Sam 1 shotcup 2 3/4"
1 oz of steel, I used steel 3's
1484 fps
10.140 LUP
This load would penetrate to kill to 49 yds and my Son killed them to 50 yds. I did not shoot it past 45 yds. In 1998 I started loading with STEEL powder mostly AA hulls. Ned S
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Re: Why Incredibly Fast Shells

Postby Beretta06 » Sun Mar 02, 2014 8:05 pm

The steel was so bad, biggest reason was federal tried to match velocities and payloads so instead of 1-1/2 oz 4s we were shooting 1-1/4 oz 4s at same velocity as old lead loads! After numerous misses and puffs of feathers that 1st opener. My dad was so pissed he reloads his 870 after missing. Shoots 3 decoys. And I'm just a kid I say what the hell. My dad says "I just wanted to make sure there was something in these F-ing shells"!

We had to swap over, I don't think it was state wide but the were to or three large areas that were first, the first season. The stuff I reload now is just sick good now, it's interesting to think back and remember and realize how far things have come. All the tungsten bases shot alloys seem like such a waste.



Dwight
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Re: Why Incredibly Fast Shells

Postby Jon Bergren » Sun Mar 02, 2014 8:39 pm

steelshotshooter wrote:Great story Ned, thanks for sharing...

You got a picture of that old double gun you could post....
.
.


No, and my Pastor Son has it in Bartlesville, Ok. Ned S
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Re: Why Incredibly Fast Shells

Postby Beretta06 » Sun Mar 02, 2014 9:10 pm

Jon Bergren wrote:
steelshotshooter wrote:Great story Ned, thanks for sharing...

You got a picture of that old double gun you could post....
.
.


No, and my Pastor Son has it in Bartlesville, Ok. Ned S


Ned I don't know how to explain that these are the guns I'm talking bout with model 37 designation
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Beretta06
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Re: Why Incredibly Fast Shells

Postby Jon Bergren » Sun Mar 02, 2014 10:11 pm

I owned a Mod 37 Ithaca back in the '50's but couldn't hit with it. That was before I learned how to fit guns. Ned S
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Re: Why Incredibly Fast Shells

Postby Mugzwump » Sun Mar 02, 2014 10:39 pm

Beretta06 wrote:The steel was so bad, biggest reason was federal tried to match velocities and payloads so instead of 1-1/2 oz 4s we were shooting 1-1/4 oz 4s at same velocity as old lead loads! After numerous misses and puffs of feathers that 1st opener. My dad was so pissed he reloads his 870 after missing. Shoots 3 decoys. And I'm just a kid I say what the hell. My dad says "I just wanted to make sure there was something in these F-ing shells"!

We had to swap over, I don't think it was state wide but the were to or three large areas that were first, the first season. The stuff I reload now is just sick good now, it's interesting to think back and remember and realize how far things have come. All the tungsten bases shot alloys seem like such a waste.



Dwight


Yep... we call that tail feather soup. That's all you get for dinner.

I wish the tungsten prices were lower.... none of us would be on here talking about all this crap, we'd forget about lead and that would be it.

Mugz.
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Re: Why Incredibly Fast Shells

Postby Beretta06 » Sun Mar 02, 2014 11:54 pm

I shot 200 rounds of tungsten Matrix 3" #5 1-1/4 oz 1525fps by far the best thing I have ever shot, bought it from cabelas on sale years ago for $131 per 100 now it $4.50 $5 a round or so. Haven't bothered with any other tungsten rounds since.

It's been fun thinking a little out of the box and going from one of the largest duck loads on the market. And hand loading a small fast load and enjoying the same and better success. It really fun shooting next to someone that's still got the 3.5" in the gun and giving the crap after you limited with 1-1/16 oz and now your backing them up knocking their birds down. It really gets to my brother. LOL

I tested the 1-1/16oz 3s @ 1730 I didn't expect to like it, the pellet count is near what I like I patterned it, again unexpected it was good, took it to the blind, and it's real good, I like that sound it makes when it hits the bird like a slap on bear skin. A good Square hit. 1-1/16oz isn't what I expected to like, it just fits my situation so well decoys to 50 yd so well.

And I'm new to D.H.C it's been fun mixing it up with you guys. Sometimes you learn somthing, If your open to somthing that isn't your own thoughts or ideas.

Dwight
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