Why Incredibly Fast Shells

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Re: Why Incredibly Fast Shells

Postby Mugzwump » Tue Mar 04, 2014 9:55 pm

Jon Bergren wrote:No "gimmies" allowed. Ned S


Ya clearly got none to give.

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Re: Why Incredibly Fast Shells

Postby Jon Bergren » Tue Mar 04, 2014 10:20 pm

Mugzwump wrote:
Jon Bergren wrote:No "gimmies" allowed. Ned S


Ya clearly got none to give.

Mugz.


Yes I do. The answer why ejecta can spin. Ned S
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Re: Why Incredibly Fast Shells

Postby Mugzwump » Tue Mar 04, 2014 11:25 pm

Alright Mr. Ned,

I stopped thinking you were going to say anything that actually meant anything awhile ago. I've been done with this thread for longer than you think, just trying to see how big of a hole you have behind your keyboard.
I will say this: though no one here has any credibility at all, some people do have self respect and character. It's these people who carry the forum and incite the conversation and the discussions we are all here to read. It's these people that have things of value to share.

If you are going to partake in discussions such as the one here that ended 4 pages ago; if you are going to suggest ideas or theories and stand fast to them, argumentatively and mundanely pronouncing them to be fact without offering true reason or even the slightest amount of educated and respectful dialogue, it is of no consequence to anyone but yourself. You clearly are not one of those people who have the respect and character that carry us forward.
Maybe you have gone far enough in your life that you have no desire to interact on a level other than a "he-said-she -said" mentality, but I ask of you not to disrespect our interests and faith in each other by making statements true or false, without the decency of explaining how they have come to be your opinion and without the respectful offering of an honest response to a honest question.

I am not sure what it is you are protecting... is it the fact that you have scrubbed yourself into a corner or is it that you enjoy the feeling of holding some form of knowledge over someone's head, even if it is only fictional?

I hope you have found some form of gratification here, maybe there is one half-smirk left on your face at the end of it. If so I am glad to be part of it, but at your age you should know by now that honesty and respect are the ultimate form of character... and without character here, you are no one but just another virtual being in the midst of millions of no bodies. By ridicule or by that holier-than-thou attitude you carry with you so proudly... you are left to your own devices.

I hereby withdraw my candidacy for biggest highjacker of the "Why Incredibly Fast Shells" Thread of 2014...

She's all yours Captain Ned.

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Re: Why Incredibly Fast Shells

Postby Yuchi1 » Wed Mar 05, 2014 10:26 pm

baltz526 wrote:Wadlock type chokes and barrels do give more consistent patterns. At least with larger shot sizes of steel, the choke I have gives more consistent patterns. Less flyers out side the core pattern. I'll bet there is super high speed film on it somewhere. They sold a lot of the barrels in the past for lead shot.



Interesting commentary in the second paragraph of p. 286*

* http://books.google.com/books?id=-gmdwd ... on&f=false
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Re: Why Incredibly Fast Shells

Postby baltz526 » Wed Mar 05, 2014 10:39 pm

That would be an interesting book to have
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Re: Why Incredibly Fast Shells

Postby Yuchi1 » Wed Mar 05, 2014 10:41 pm

baltz526 wrote:That would be an interesting book to have


May have to purchase it for the daughter as she's headed toward a forensic science degree.
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Re: Why Incredibly Fast Shells

Postby lostknife4 » Thu Mar 06, 2014 8:40 am

Yuchi1 wrote:
baltz526 wrote:Wadlock type chokes and barrels do give more consistent patterns. At least with larger shot sizes of steel, the choke I have gives more consistent patterns. Less flyers out side the core pattern. I'll bet there is super high speed film on it somewhere. They sold a lot of the barrels in the past for lead shot.



Interesting commentary in the second paragraph of p. 286*

* http://books.google.com/books?id=-gmdwd ... on&f=false


IMHO my Wadlock barrel with straight rifling does in fact pattern better than the smooth bore BPS barrel from Browning and I attribute that by the most part is not because it stops INTERNAL shotcup and shot from spinning or rotating but rather the barrel has much thicker section and therefore has more resistance to any harmonic frequency influences.

I have been the cause of and have observed quite a few years ago the effects of shooting BB gun steel pellets in paper cases from redneck reloads in an old double barrel shotgun, that was long before the invention of plastic shotcups and we used hornet's nests for wadding. None of the scratches that were evident had a path other than straight down the barrel. Neither did these scratches affect the pattern of these guns and my conclusion is that the straight rifling in my Wadlock barrel has little or no effect on any undefined forces that cause rotation. My opinion in part is reinforced by the lack of response from Varney-Carron to my requests for information to support their claim that there is in fact any rotation and the reasons for it.


The following paragraph, referenced previously above, describes the affect of rifling, not a broached straight "rifling" as in the Wadlock barrel, and the results of the shot under centrifugal force which opens the pattern much quicker than while not under any rotational forces. Enlarged patterns at much shorter ranges being the result of rifling. Also it would appear that the shotcup petals , since it is spinning from a rifled bore, are forced straight outward perpendicular to the line of flight, by centrifugal force and remain that way longer than a smooth bore petal shotcup and the shotcup remains with a more stable and concentric shape which permits it to fly farther than the smooth bore shotcup where the petals fold back in no apparent order and hence do not have the trajectory of the spinning wad as described in the paragraph below.

Image

Further in the linked article is a reference that I would dearly love to read:

Image

In conclusion: Rifled bores, other than straight rifled or broached bores, will, due to centrifugal force, have much larger patterns at shorter distances than smooth bores. There is no evidence proving that shotcups rotate or spin within a smooth bore barrel in this referenced link as these observations are all concerning Exterior Ballistics, albeit a reason for shotcups spinning is provided, ie rifled bores.

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Re: Why Incredibly Fast Shells

Postby Jon Bergren » Thu Mar 06, 2014 9:06 am

lostknife4 wrote:
Yuchi1 wrote:
baltz526 wrote:Wadlock type chokes and barrels do give more consistent patterns. At least with larger shot sizes of steel, the choke I have gives more consistent patterns. Less flyers out side the core pattern. I'll bet there is super high speed film on it somewhere. They sold a lot of the barrels in the past for lead shot.



Interesting commentary in the second paragraph of p. 286*

* http://books.google.com/books?id=-gmdwd ... on&f=false


IMHO my Wadlock barrel with straight rifling does in fact pattern better than the smooth bore BPS barrel from Browning and I attribute that by the most part is not because it stops INTERNAL shotcup and shot from spinning or rotating but rather the barrel has much thicker section and therefore has more resistance to any harmonic frequency influences.

I have been the cause of and have observed quite a few years ago the effects of shooting BB gun steel pellets in paper cases from redneck reloads in an old double barrel shotgun, that was long before the invention of plastic shotcups and we used hornet's nests for wadding. None of the scratches that were evident had a path other than straight down the barrel. Neither did these scratches affect the pattern of these guns and my conclusion is that the straight rifling in my Wadlock barrel has little or no effect on any undefined forces that cause rotation. My opinion in part is reinforced by the lack of response from Varney-Carron to my requests for information to support their claim that there is in fact any rotation and the reasons for it.


The following paragraph, referenced previously above, describes the affect of rifling, not a broached straight "rifling" as in the Wadlock barrel, and the results of the shot under centrifugal force which opens the pattern much quicker than while not under any rotational forces. Enlarged patterns at much shorter ranges being the result of rifling. Also it would appear that the shotcup petals , since it is spinning from a rifled bore, are forced straight outward perpendicular to the line of flight, by centrifugal force and remain that way longer than a smooth bore petal shotcup and the shotcup remains with a more stable and concentric shape which permits it to fly farther than the smooth bore shotcup where the petals fold back in no apparent order and hence do not have the trajectory of the spinning wad as described in the paragraph below.

Image

Further in the linked article is a reference that I would dearly love to read:

Image

In conclusion: Rifled bores, other than straight rifled or broached bores, will, due to centrifugal force, have much larger patterns at shorter distances than smooth bores. There is no evidence proving that shotcups rotate or spin within a smooth bore barrel in this referenced link as these observations are all concerning Exterior Ballistics, albeit a reason for shotcups spinning is provided, ie rifled bores.

Lost


Lost knows about centrifugal force but doesn't know the force that can cause the shotgun ejecta to spin. He had the Engr class that explained it in college. Ned S
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Re: Why Incredibly Fast Shells

Postby lostknife4 » Thu Mar 06, 2014 9:39 am

Jon Bergren wrote:Lost knows about centrifugal force but doesn't know the force that can cause the shotgun ejecta to spin. He had the Engr class that explained it in college. Ned S


And Ned apparently is the only one on here that knows what causes the shotcup to spin while inside the barrel and has this confused with "ejecta" which the word by definition means "from" the barrel therefore not Internal Barrel Ballistics.
But all this time Ned has refused to explain the theory behind his hypothesis as it applies to the shotcup spinning INSIDE the barrel and in fact I and others have provided links to video's, in DHC and other forums, that clearly show that the "ejecta" at the point of "ejection" near the muzzle, shotcups are NOT spinning when ejected from smooth bore barrels. Not once has Ned supplied any clear evidence via pictures or videos nor Engineering Reference material to prove his hypothesis nor do I ever expect that he will. He has never supplied any documentation, that I know of, about a lot of other things he has been asked to supply supporting/back up information on either.
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Re: Why Incredibly Fast Shells

Postby kenner » Thu Mar 06, 2014 9:50 am

Here's a possible experiment and maybe not...... When I try to find the perfect spine of arrow shaft, (not for my shotgun),, I shoot a shaft at point blank and then take a half-arrow-length step back and shoot again and repeat that 'til the oscillation of the tail of the shaft, left to right, is minimized...

So,, couldn't a person mark on petal of a wad; put it in a hull w/ NO powder, only a primer; NO shot; align the hull and wad and mark both; shoot at a "stop" at the barrel's end.

And then, to test spin outside the barrel, just keep moving back, as I do with my arrows.

Would that work???
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Re: Why Incredibly Fast Shells

Postby Jon Bergren » Thu Mar 06, 2014 10:40 am

kenner wrote:Here's a possible experiment and maybe not...... When I try to find the perfect spine of arrow shaft, (not for my shotgun),, I shoot a shaft at point blank and then take a half-arrow-length step back and shoot again and repeat that 'til the oscillation of the tail of the shaft, left to right, is minimized...

So,, couldn't a person mark on petal of a wad; put it in a hull w/ NO powder, only a primer; NO shot; align the hull and wad and mark both; shoot at a "stop" at the barrel's end.

And then, to test spin outside the barrel, just keep moving back, as I do with my arrows.

Would that work???


I'll post on the forum why the ejecta spins. Ned S
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Re: Why Incredibly Fast Shells

Postby steelshotshooter » Thu Mar 06, 2014 11:34 am

I have watched slow motion videos of wads leaving the barrel in trap and skeet shooting, and some have followed the wad till it dropped to the ground, and I have yet to see a wad "spin" from a smoot bore barrel....
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Re: Why Incredibly Fast Shells

Postby Theduckguru » Thu Mar 06, 2014 4:45 pm

You are shooting a wad containing shot through the barrel with several thousand pounds pressure behind the wad. I don't know how many pounds of lateral pressure is exerted of the wad during acceration in the barrel, but it is enough to stop any spin. But let's say I am wrong, you would then have to believe that lateral preassure on the wad stops rotation of a wad, with the mass of the shot in cup, in about 1/2" of choke. That would be one heck on a brake.
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Re: Why Incredibly Fast Shells

Postby slowshooter » Thu Mar 06, 2014 5:41 pm

Methinks I should have read this thread before I posted into Ned's. :lol3:
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Re: Why Incredibly Fast Shells

Postby UmatillaJeff » Thu Mar 06, 2014 6:03 pm

steelshotshooter wrote:I have watched slow motion videos of wads leaving the barrel in trap and skeet shooting, and some have followed the wad till it dropped to the ground, and I have yet to see a wad "spin" from a smoot bore barrel....
.
.



I have seen this many times as well. I have lots of videos of guys shooting clay targets and Starlings that we watch to analyze why a guy is missing certain shots ETC ETC.

The wad is not spinning out side of the gun. I don't give a rats ass what anybody says as I have watched the videos hundred of times and the wads are not spinning and that goes for my hastings wad lock barrels as well as the regular old smooth bore shotgun barrels. This is universal from a Perazzi to a H@R single shot.

What goes on inside the barrel?

The shadow knows... ha-ha- ha-
If steel 2's are so wonderful why did they come out with Bismuth, hevi shot, tungsten, and TSS ? Why do people pay 2 to 5 dollars a shot when all you need is steel 2's? Hmmm......
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Re: Why Incredibly Fast Shells

Postby Yuchi1 » Fri Mar 07, 2014 9:08 am

lostknife4 wrote:
Yuchi1 wrote:
baltz526 wrote:Wadlock type chokes and barrels do give more consistent patterns. At least with larger shot sizes of steel, the choke I have gives more consistent patterns. Less flyers out side the core pattern. I'll bet there is super high speed film on it somewhere. They sold a lot of the barrels in the past for lead shot.



Interesting commentary in the second paragraph of p. 286*

* http://books.google.com/books?id=-gmdwd ... on&f=false


IMHO my Wadlock barrel with straight rifling does in fact pattern better than the smooth bore BPS barrel from Browning and I attribute that by the most part is not because it stops INTERNAL shotcup and shot from spinning or rotating but rather the barrel has much thicker section and therefore has more resistance to any harmonic frequency influences.

I have been the cause of and have observed quite a few years ago the effects of shooting BB gun steel pellets in paper cases from redneck reloads in an old double barrel shotgun, that was long before the invention of plastic shotcups and we used hornet's nests for wadding. None of the scratches that were evident had a path other than straight down the barrel. Neither did these scratches affect the pattern of these guns and my conclusion is that the straight rifling in my Wadlock barrel has little or no effect on any undefined forces that cause rotation. My opinion in part is reinforced by the lack of response from Varney-Carron to my requests for information to support their claim that there is in fact any rotation and the reasons for it.


The following paragraph, referenced previously above, describes the affect of rifling, not a broached straight "rifling" as in the Wadlock barrel, and the results of the shot under centrifugal force which opens the pattern much quicker than while not under any rotational forces. Enlarged patterns at much shorter ranges being the result of rifling. Also it would appear that the shotcup petals , since it is spinning from a rifled bore, are forced straight outward perpendicular to the line of flight, by centrifugal force and remain that way longer than a smooth bore petal shotcup and the shotcup remains with a more stable and concentric shape which permits it to fly farther than the smooth bore shotcup where the petals fold back in no apparent order and hence do not have the trajectory of the spinning wad as described in the paragraph below.

Image

Further in the linked article is a reference that I would dearly love to read:

Image

In conclusion: Rifled bores, other than straight rifled or broached bores, will, due to centrifugal force, have much larger patterns at shorter distances than smooth bores. There is no evidence proving that shotcups rotate or spin within a smooth bore barrel in this referenced link as these observations are all concerning Exterior Ballistics, albeit a reason for shotcups spinning is provided, ie rifled bores.

Lost


B,

IMO, the gist of the limited material linked, is the rifling stabilized the shotcup and stopped it from tumbling, as contrasted with the smooth bore barrels. With that being said, would it be a huge leap in logic to surmise the straight rifling, as broached into HWL barrels would present a similar stabilizing effect?

And, like you, would really like to read the article referenced in the footnotes.

BTW, while up on the elevated platform of our wobbletrap house, I have (while coaching young shooters) noticed various shotcups spinning (like a badminton shuttlecock) while flying downrange and yet, others do not spin. Whether those "spinning" shotcups are doing so (or, not) whilst travelling down those particular bore(s) is still a mystery, to me.

One observation made and is so consistent in repeatability, is that my HWL barrels render patterns that are the most even in pellet distribution (especially with the 20" core) of any barrels I've patterned, to-date and do so with a wide variety of loads.

I have found (steel shotshells) that the factory HWL tube in IC is very appropriate in field use out to 45-50 yards with small(er) pellets launched at high (1550FPS/MV) velocity. The Kent Fasteel load in 2 3/4" with 1 1/16 oz. of #3's @1550FPS/MV is one that fits this bill, as demonstrated (to me) in multiple field instances. Have noted such results with both the 24" HWL barrel aboard one of the 870WM's as well as the 30"HWL on one of the 1100's so, barrel-to-barrel, gun-to-gun, an unmistakable consistency was observed with HWL barrels.

I have been pondering a sort of "test" on this spinning payload situation. Using one of my "old" 30" trap barrels (polished out to remove any residue) and a handload of 15gm/cc tungsten w/o any shotcup (or, a thin, lead load one) fired down the bore (1X) and checked for scoring marks with said measured at both the forcing cone and at the muzzle for any change in attitude to the barrel's axis, to see if there's a difference as this would suggest a rotation of the payload while moving down the barrel. The tungsten would leave rather significant marks as (at, 15gm/cc) it would be ~200DPH vs. the 120DPH of a typical shotgun barrel.

My question (aside from sacrificing a barrel) is would such a test be somewhat moot when you consider the material differences between a plastic shotcup and 15gm/cc tungsten? Is there some method for "marking" a shotcup to where it would leave a "trail" from where it travelled down the bore of the barrel?

Redneck engineering at it's finest....
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Re: Why Incredibly Fast Shells

Postby Yuchi1 » Fri Mar 07, 2014 9:16 am

Sent from my Sumerian tablets

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Re: Why Incredibly Fast Shells

Postby mudpack » Fri Mar 07, 2014 9:33 am

Jon Bergren wrote:First of all one of the first things I learned In Engr class Mechanics of Materials was why ejecta spins. .


I find it interesting, ned, that all these classes you supposedly took, and all the "nuclear" work you did came out of your degree as an Agricultural Engineer (Iowa State, 1953). They put atomic radishes in missiles in Iowa??

For the rest of us: ned has never been able to give the basis for his belief in the "spinning wad" theory, other than a scratch in a choke tube and some plastic smears in another. Look at some of the Federal Black Cloud and Winchester Blind Side advertising videos; they clearly show payloads exiting muzzles in very slow motion and none of them are spinning. There are other shotgun videos on YouTube showing exiting payloads, and not one is spinning. You can see for yourself.

Ol' ned has changed his tune, over time, from "all shotcups spin" to his current "some shotcups can spin". But one thing has not changed: he can't tell us why that would be. He just says "you should know/I shouldn't have to tell you". Draw your own conclusions.
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Re: Why Incredibly Fast Shells

Postby mudpack » Fri Mar 07, 2014 10:01 am

Yuchi1 wrote:BTW, while up on the elevated platform of our wobbletrap house, I have (while coaching young shooters) noticed various shotcups spinning (like a badminton shuttlecock) while flying downrange and yet, others do not spin. Whether those "spinning" shotcups are doing so (or, not) whilst travelling down those particular bore(s) is still a mystery, to me....


I shoot a lot of the clay sports, and have notice the same thing: most wads just fly out there and fall to the ground, but there are quite a few that spin like top and helicopter to the ground. I believe the explanation is the shotcup's pedals.
As they fold back from air pressure, one or more of these pedals could take a twist, which would then cause them to have "pitch" like a propeller blade. Then, air pressure would cause the cup to react like a propeller and start spinning.

I'm one of the engineers that ned sometimes refers to. The only possible thing (that I can think of) that ned might have in the back of his mind is the Coriolis Effect (CE). A simple explanation of the CE can be found on Wiki, and you'll be able to see that it is a visual phenomena, not a mechanical one. I.e. the CE is optical illusion, not something that actually happens. Other than that, there is no force I'm aware of that would cause a shotcup traveling down a barrel to start rotating. If there is, ol' ned is the only one who knows about it, and he ain't talkin'.
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Re: Why Incredibly Fast Shells

Postby kenner » Fri Mar 07, 2014 10:04 am

Actually, Ned started a thread recently, "Why ejecta can spin":
http://www.duckhuntingchat.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=446194
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Re: Why Incredibly Fast Shells

Postby mudpack » Fri Mar 07, 2014 10:35 am

Thanks, kenner, I just found it.
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Re: Why Incredibly Fast Shells

Postby lostknife4 » Fri Mar 07, 2014 5:36 pm

Yuchi1 wrote:B,
J
IMO, the gist of the limited material linked, is the rifling stabilized the shotcup and stopped it from tumbling, as contrasted with the smooth bore barrels. With that being said, would it be a huge leap in logic to surmise the straight rifling, as broached into HWL barrels would present a similar stabilizing effect?
First off we have to define tumbling and rotation. There has to be some "stabilizing effect" to a broached or straight rifled bore but just what the parameters of the stabilization is beyond me and I feel there is no requirement for a broached barrel other than the fact that the Wadlock is a much more robust barrel. I think in your friend's case he has not fully analyzed the situation and is thinking 2D when in fact it is a 3D situation. The tumbling or attempt at tumbling is because of this off central axis centre of gravity and the resultant is trying to force the wad to twist sidewise and of course the barrel walls wont allow that but more importantly there is no force making this shotcup rotate about the central or bore axis. Just using common sense he claims approximately 6000 rpm and yet he also claims great patterns from these same cartridges. That is a really obfuscating the facts!

And, like you, would really like to read the article referenced in the footnotes.

BTW, while up on the elevated platform of our wobbletrap house, I have (while coaching young shooters) noticed various shotcups spinning (like a badminton shuttlecock) while flying downrange and yet, others do not spin. Whether those "spinning" shotcups are doing so (or, not) whilst travelling down those particular bore(s) is still a mystery, to me.
These spinning wads are External Ballistics and the forces in play to make these shotcups spin are the air in contact with non symmetrical shotcup petals, this happens all the time and is a well known fact, shotcups outside the barrel can and do spin erratically when they come in contact with the air outside the barrel!

One observation made and is so consistent in repeatability, is that my HWL barrels render patterns that are the most even in pellet distribution (especially with the 20" core) of any barrels I've patterned, to-date and do so with a wide variety of loads.
Is it the broached straight fifling or the heavy barrel that in your opinion is responsible for this?

I have found (steel shotshells) that the factory HWL tube in IC is very appropriate in field use out to 45-50 yards with small(er) pellets launched at high (1550FPS/MV) velocity. The Kent Fasteel load in 2 3/4" with 1 1/16 oz. of #3's @1550FPS/MV is one that fits this bill, as demonstrated (to me) in multiple field instances. Have noted such results with both the 24" HWL barrel aboard one of the 870WM's as well as the 30"HWL on one of the 1100's so, barrel-to-barrel, gun-to-gun, an unmistakable consistency was observed with HWL barrels.

I have been pondering a sort of "test" on this spinning payload situation. Using one of my "old" 30" trap barrels (polished out to remove any residue) and a handload of 15gm/cc tungsten w/o any shotcup (or, a thin, lead load one) fired down the bore (1X) and checked for scoring marks with said measured at both the forcing cone and at the muzzle for any change in attitude to the barrel's axis, to see if there's a difference as this would suggest a rotation of the payload while moving down the barrel. The tungsten would leave rather significant marks as (at, 15gm/cc) it would be ~200DPH vs. the 120DPH of a typical shotgun barrel.

My question (aside from sacrificing a barrel) is would such a test be somewhat moot when you consider the material differences between a plastic shotcup and 15gm/cc tungsten? Is there some method for "marking" a shotcup to where it would leave a "trail" from where it travelled down the bore of the barrel?
Since I have already accomplished this scratch job you can take it from me and several others who have also attested to the fact that the scratches are straight down the barrel add to that the myriad of video's on line showing the shotcup leaving the barrel with absolutely no spinning whatsoever. Why ruin a perfectly good barrel but then again who knows this form of broaching may be beneficial because taken to the extreme isn't that what a Wadlock barrel is?

Redneck engineering at it's finest....


LOL,
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Re: Why Incredibly Fast Shells

Postby kenner » Fri Mar 07, 2014 6:31 pm

Sure glad y'all didn't tear me to shreds for my simpleton, proposed experiment!!... not worth it, I guess :-D whew........ :beer:
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Re: Why Incredibly Fast Shells

Postby Yuchi1 » Fri Mar 07, 2014 7:49 pm

lostknife4 wrote:
Yuchi1 wrote:B,
J
IMO, the gist of the limited material linked, is the rifling stabilized the shotcup and stopped it from tumbling, as contrasted with the smooth bore barrels. With that being said, would it be a huge leap in logic to surmise the straight rifling, as broached into HWL barrels would present a similar stabilizing effect?
First off we have to define tumbling and rotation. There has to be some "stabilizing effect" to a broached or straight rifled bore but just what the parameters of the stabilization is beyond me and I feel there is no requirement for a broached barrel other than the fact that the Wadlock is a much more robust barrel. I think in your friend's case he has not fully analyzed the situation and is thinking 2D when in fact it is a 3D situation. The tumbling or attempt at tumbling is because of this off central axis centre of gravity and the resultant is trying to force the wad to twist sidewise and of course the barrel walls wont allow that but more importantly there is no force making this shotcup rotate about the central or bore axis. Just using common sense he claims approximately 6000 rpm and yet he also claims great patterns from these same cartridges. That is a really obfuscating the facts!

And, like you, would really like to read the article referenced in the footnotes.

BTW, while up on the elevated platform of our wobbletrap house, I have (while coaching young shooters) noticed various shotcups spinning (like a badminton shuttlecock) while flying downrange and yet, others do not spin. Whether those "spinning" shotcups are doing so (or, not) whilst travelling down those particular bore(s) is still a mystery, to me.
These spinning wads are External Ballistics and the forces in play to make these shotcups spin are the air in contact with non symmetrical shotcup petals, this happens all the time and is a well known fact, shotcups outside the barrel can and do spin erratically when they come in contact with the air outside the barrel!

One observation made and is so consistent in repeatability, is that my HWL barrels render patterns that are the most even in pellet distribution (especially with the 20" core) of any barrels I've patterned, to-date and do so with a wide variety of loads.
Is it the broached straight fifling or the heavy barrel that in your opinion is responsible for this? (IMO, the broaching, as with my Remington Premier barrels (which are very robust) the patterns attained (with them) were nowhere near the quality as the HWL barrels)

I have found (steel shotshells) that the factory HWL tube in IC is very appropriate in field use out to 45-50 yards with small(er) pellets launched at high (1550FPS/MV) velocity. The Kent Fasteel load in 2 3/4" with 1 1/16 oz. of #3's @1550FPS/MV is one that fits this bill, as demonstrated (to me) in multiple field instances. Have noted such results with both the 24" HWL barrel aboard one of the 870WM's as well as the 30"HWL on one of the 1100's so, barrel-to-barrel, gun-to-gun, an unmistakable consistency was observed with HWL barrels.

I have been pondering a sort of "test" on this spinning payload situation. Using one of my "old" 30" trap barrels (polished out to remove any residue) and a handload of 15gm/cc tungsten w/o any shotcup (or, a thin, lead load one) fired down the bore (1X) and checked for scoring marks with said measured at both the forcing cone and at the muzzle for any change in attitude to the barrel's axis, to see if there's a difference as this would suggest a rotation of the payload while moving down the barrel. The tungsten would leave rather significant marks as (at, 15gm/cc) it would be ~200DPH vs. the 120DPH of a typical shotgun barrel.

My question (aside from sacrificing a barrel) is would such a test be somewhat moot when you consider the material differences between a plastic shotcup and 15gm/cc tungsten? Is there some method for "marking" a shotcup to where it would leave a "trail" from where it travelled down the bore of the barrel?
Since I have already accomplished this scratch job you can take it from me and several others who have also attested to the fact that the scratches are straight down the barrel add to that the myriad of video's on line showing the shotcup leaving the barrel with absolutely no spinning whatsoever. Why ruin a perfectly good barrel but then again who knows this form of broaching may be beneficial because taken to the extreme isn't that what a Wadlock barrel is? (Say I do conduct such an experiment and find the scoring is off-axis by ~1mm from forcing cone throat to the muzzle, what level of possible (RPM's) rotation would such indicate in a 30" barrel with ~26.5" of total payload contact area?

Redneck engineering at it's finest....


LOL,
Lost
Sent from my Sumerian tablets

Does the number of bands claimed simply mean you have an Ebay account?

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Re: Why Incredibly Fast Shells

Postby Yuchi1 » Fri Mar 07, 2014 8:11 pm



Think I may have found this publication: http://library2.nsuok.edu/search/o1754597

The university is 3.4 miles from the house.
Sent from my Sumerian tablets

Does the number of bands claimed simply mean you have an Ebay account?

FSH Pro Staffer

High Potentate, NSSB (no spinning shotcup brotherhood)
Yuchi1
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Posts: 1611
Joined: Wed Jan 17, 2007 9:15 pm
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