Why Incredibly Fast Shells

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Re: Why Incredibly Fast Shells

Postby Mugzwump » Sat Mar 01, 2014 8:08 pm

solway gunner wrote:
Mugzwump wrote:
solway gunner wrote:
Mugzwump wrote:
solway gunner wrote:
Mugzwump wrote:
Beretta06 wrote:3200 is correct in saying 1oz of #3s is perfect for a decoying load for ducks. I tinkered with 4s and 5s. Go with the 3s. Although in the Central Valley at some point we will have rain and tule fog. I ounce 4s or 5s with my cylinder choke works nice when your max range and visibility is in that 30-35 yard range.

For me I combine a decoying and short passing load. Rsi #88 the majority of my work is done in the 30 to 50 yard range. I just don't take shots over 50yd anymore. It's 470gr of steel close to 1 1/16oz of steel 3s 1730fps. I like to keep the pellet count up as we shoot a lot of greenwings. Pattern density is key with small ducks. If I were shooting medium and large only. I might drop to 7/8oz or move up to #2s or #1s

For windy days I shoot 1 1/8 oz #2s @ 1595 or 1 1/4oz #2s 1615fps windy days is a parade of big ducks at our club.

I shoot an Italian gun don't worry you will find the right combo it just takes some effort. I'm still working at it. I'm going to work on a few recipes over the summer out of the rsi book.

I shot 3.5" 1 1/2 oz @1500fps for 10 straight years 60 + yards is doubtful.

Dwight

Good luck stay in contact on your project


Just curious as to why anyone who would choose to shoot a 7/8 oz load at birds wouldn't just shoot a 20 gauge that day?

Mugz.

why ? because the bigger bore always affords the best pattern with a shorter shotstring,is not as restricted by pellet size, has less recoil in like for velocitys and will always have a lower breech pressure which in turn has a detrimental effect on patterns,thats why.


Pretty sure you and I covered that in our last discussion solway... with that thinking we all should be using 10 gauges.

Mugz.


Not strictly true as the 12ga covers 99% of wildfowling senarios,all other gauges inc 10ga make up the other 1% ,yet this is 20ga 7/8oz v 12ga 7/8oz and 12ga wins by the very same principle as the 10ga wins over the 12ga,and so on.The bigger the bore size the more effective the gun shall be in any given situation with like for payloads.


Nice weave.

Mugz



Now theres a reply brimming with intellect.
Didnt figure that it was too much of a commonsense reply for you to comprehend.I was wrong.
Next time you go down to disneyland with yer red ryder be sure and shoot them 10-15ft birds you like a sittin now wont ya..
:hi:


Sorry I just didn't want to get back into that whole discussion. All I meant was that you can spin this stuff any which way to make it sound like your opinion is more right... which is what you did... no harm no foul there we all do it. Back to the OP's Q.

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Re: Why Incredibly Fast Shells

Postby Mugzwump » Sat Mar 01, 2014 8:11 pm

Jon Bergren wrote:
Mugzwump wrote:
steelshotshooter wrote:A 7/8 oz. 12 ga. loads have a LOT less recoil than a 1 3/8 oz. load but, I'm not sure how far that heavy of a load will reliably and consistently kill ducks and geese. I know what the lighter loads will do....
.
.


well.. recoil is something that each person tolerates differently. I shoot a nice old heavy gun with wooden stocks... my bud shoots a modern gun that I find kicks like a mule... though he doesn't mind it. Who's to say whats reasonable? I figure if you can get the gun up for a second shot then whatever recoil isn't a factor.

As far as range goes if they're equal in pellet mass and MV, then they're equal in range. The "heavy" load has a better percentage of making a kill on pellet count alone. Sure a lighter load can be made to go faster and thus kill further but your chances of making the hit are substantially lower anyway...

My 1 3/8 oz store bought are reliable, and consistent... pretty much the whole reason they're a multi-million dollar industry. Whats most important is whether or not I put the load on the bird and the only thing that reliably helps that is number of pellets in the sky and a good judge of lead.

I can't say an increase of 200 fps or so really makes a big difference, and I wouldn't sacrifice payload for it... I'd actually opt for less MV and more payload within reason.

Mugz.



The reason you probablly don't opt for fast loads is you can't reload them and/or your gun does not pattern them well.
As far as number of pellets in the sky doesn't assure you of a kill. I can hold 7/8 oz of B's together to 60 yds with a killing pattern killing Lessers. It takes 5 pellets with sufficient energy to kill geese and it takes 35 pellets in the pattern to do this. A Terror choke does this for me and the B's will penetrate to kill to 66.5 yds. 200 fps does not make a big difference, however going to a BB from a B will increase the kill distance 4 yds, thats 12 ft . Ned S


Lol... no wait... LMAO... ahem.... :huh:

What ?

Ahhh... crap.... I shouldn't have asked.

Mugz.
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Re: Why Incredibly Fast Shells

Postby Mugzwump » Sat Mar 01, 2014 8:19 pm

Mugzwump wrote:
Jon Bergren wrote:
Mugzwump wrote:
steelshotshooter wrote:A 7/8 oz. 12 ga. loads have a LOT less recoil than a 1 3/8 oz. load but, I'm not sure how far that heavy of a load will reliably and consistently kill ducks and geese. I know what the lighter loads will do....
.
.


well.. recoil is something that each person tolerates differently. I shoot a nice old heavy gun with wooden stocks... my bud shoots a modern gun that I find kicks like a mule... though he doesn't mind it. Who's to say whats reasonable? I figure if you can get the gun up for a second shot then whatever recoil isn't a factor.

As far as range goes if they're equal in pellet mass and MV, then they're equal in range. The "heavy" load has a better percentage of making a kill on pellet count alone. Sure a lighter load can be made to go faster and thus kill further but your chances of making the hit are substantially lower anyway...

My 1 3/8 oz store bought are reliable, and consistent... pretty much the whole reason they're a multi-million dollar industry. Whats most important is whether or not I put the load on the bird and the only thing that reliably helps that is number of pellets in the sky and a good judge of lead.

I can't say an increase of 200 fps or so really makes a big difference, and I wouldn't sacrifice payload for it... I'd actually opt for less MV and more payload within reason.

Mugz.



The reason you probablly don't opt for fast loads is you can't reload them and/or your gun does not pattern them well.
As far as number of pellets in the sky doesn't assure you of a kill. I can hold 7/8 oz of B's together to 60 yds with a killing pattern killing Lessers. It takes 5 pellets with sufficient energy to kill geese and it takes 35 pellets in the pattern to do this. A Terror choke does this for me and the B's will penetrate to kill to 66.5 yds. 200 fps does not make a big difference, however going to a BB from a B will increase the kill distance 4 yds, thats 12 ft . Ned S


Lol... no wait... LMAO... ahem.... :huh:

What ?

Ahhh... crap.... I shouldn't have asked.

Mugz.


Sorry old man... I couldn't resist.

Please don't suggest that any of us can or can't do something... you're assuming things, and it's just bad form. I'd also like to see some of your information backed up with either your own math or someone else's for that matter. All this ".5 yds" and 5 in 35 make it sound like you're pulling numbers from some sort of idealistic scenario or test bench that no one ever see's in real life... tell me, what software you running?
:beer:

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Re: Why Incredibly Fast Shells

Postby Frylock » Sat Mar 01, 2014 8:44 pm

Mugzwump wrote:
Mugzwump wrote:
Jon Bergren wrote:
Mugzwump wrote:
steelshotshooter wrote:A 7/8 oz. 12 ga. loads have a LOT less recoil than a 1 3/8 oz. load but, I'm not sure how far that heavy of a load will reliably and consistently kill ducks and geese. I know what the lighter loads will do....
.
.


well.. recoil is something that each person tolerates differently. I shoot a nice old heavy gun with wooden stocks... my bud shoots a modern gun that I find kicks like a mule... though he doesn't mind it. Who's to say whats reasonable? I figure if you can get the gun up for a second shot then whatever recoil isn't a factor.

As far as range goes if they're equal in pellet mass and MV, then they're equal in range. The "heavy" load has a better percentage of making a kill on pellet count alone. Sure a lighter load can be made to go faster and thus kill further but your chances of making the hit are substantially lower anyway...

My 1 3/8 oz store bought are reliable, and consistent... pretty much the whole reason they're a multi-million dollar industry. Whats most important is whether or not I put the load on the bird and the only thing that reliably helps that is number of pellets in the sky and a good judge of lead.

I can't say an increase of 200 fps or so really makes a big difference, and I wouldn't sacrifice payload for it... I'd actually opt for less MV and more payload within reason.

Mugz.



The reason you probablly don't opt for fast loads is you can't reload them and/or your gun does not pattern them well.
As far as number of pellets in the sky doesn't assure you of a kill. I can hold 7/8 oz of B's together to 60 yds with a killing pattern killing Lessers. It takes 5 pellets with sufficient energy to kill geese and it takes 35 pellets in the pattern to do this. A Terror choke does this for me and the B's will penetrate to kill to 66.5 yds. 200 fps does not make a big difference, however going to a BB from a B will increase the kill distance 4 yds, thats 12 ft . Ned S


Lol... no wait... LMAO... ahem.... :huh:

What ?

Ahhh... crap.... I shouldn't have asked.

Mugz.


Sorry old man... I couldn't resist.

Please don't suggest that any of us can or can't do something... you're assuming things, and it's just bad form. I'd also like to see some of your information backed up with either your own math or someone else's for that matter. All this ".5 yds" and 5 in 35 make it sound like you're pulling numbers from some sort of idealistic scenario or test bench that no one ever see's in real life... tell me, what software you running?
:beer:

Mugz.

He's to arrogant to back any of his nonsense up.
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Re: Why Incredibly Fast Shells

Postby Beretta06 » Sat Mar 01, 2014 11:43 pm

Theduckguru wrote:
Beretta06 wrote:
Rob MacK wrote:One last note, a 1 1/4oz load of #2 steel started at 1400fps will kill mallard sized ducks all day long at 60 yards if you can a) keep the pattern together (something that is easily possible with even factory chokes) and b)put the pattern on the bird.

I've still never heard a viable explanation as to why or how fast loads "kill better".

Frank


Frank,

What load of steel 2s did you get to hold to 60 yds? Choke gun combo?

Rob


All the data on my reloading bench says #2s at 1400fps run out of energy at 51-52 yards. That data is from reputable sources such as rsi and BP. How do you get your 2s to fly so far? I'm just curious!

Dwight


Maybe you should use the Consep Lethality Table instead of data from 2 salesmen in Minnesota. I agree with the CLT and Frank that #2 shot @ 1400 fps is a suitable selection for long range large ducks (typical activity 45-65 yards).[/quote]

I forgot explain to me your theory behind the 2 salesman from Minnesota. That are printing bad data on the magical #2. I would really like to hear it. (:

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Re: Why Incredibly Fast Shells

Postby slowshooter » Sun Mar 02, 2014 3:46 am

How about them Giants?

Do the Cubs have a chance this year? :lol3:
All this for a bowl of borscht.
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Re: Why Incredibly Fast Shells

Postby BT Justice » Sun Mar 02, 2014 4:05 am

Beretta06 wrote:
Theduckguru wrote:
Beretta06 wrote:
Rob MacK wrote:One last note, a 1 1/4oz load of #2 steel started at 1400fps will kill mallard sized ducks all day long at 60 yards if you can a) keep the pattern together (something that is easily possible with even factory chokes) and b)put the pattern on the bird.

I've still never heard a viable explanation as to why or how fast loads "kill better".

Frank


Frank,

What load of steel 2s did you get to hold to 60 yds? Choke gun combo?

Rob


All the data on my reloading bench says #2s at 1400fps run out of energy at 51-52 yards. That data is from reputable sources such as rsi and BP. How do you get your 2s to fly so far? I'm just curious!

Dwight


Maybe you should use the Consep Lethality Table instead of data from 2 salesmen in Minnesota. I agree with the CLT and Frank that #2 shot @ 1400 fps is a suitable selection for long range large ducks (typical activity 45-65 yards).


I forgot explain to me your theory behind the 2 salesman from Minnesota. That are printing bad data on the magical #2. I would really like to hear it. (:

Dwight[/quote]
I don't believe it's bad data so much as the wrong gun/load/choke combination to make long range #2's work like they should.
My go to late season and long range duck load for the past 10 years has been a 10 ga 1 3/8 oz load of 2's going 1620 fps shot through my Gold 10 with a .720 Terror tube. This has been and still is a proven winner for long range ducks, I don't advocate it but it will work out to 52 yards with no problems.
For geese I don't use 2's simply because they don't get the job done for me at ranges beyond 40 yards and even at that it's iffy sometimes. Your mileage may vary.
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Re: Why Incredibly Fast Shells

Postby eastcoastsoxfan » Sun Mar 02, 2014 7:48 am

52 yards for 2s makes sense!
65 yards is ridiculous
I'd love to see a killing 65 yard pattern of 2s from a 12ga, I'm going to say I never will because it's not possible
"The old school hunters shoot what they shoot and kill as many as they always have, the newbies have their 3.5."
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Re: Why Incredibly Fast Shells

Postby Jon Bergren » Sun Mar 02, 2014 8:00 am

Frylock wrote:
Mugzwump wrote:
Mugzwump wrote:
Jon Bergren wrote:
Mugzwump wrote:
steelshotshooter wrote:A 7/8 oz. 12 ga. loads have a LOT less recoil than a 1 3/8 oz. load but, I'm not sure how far that heavy of a load will reliably and consistently kill ducks and geese. I know what the lighter loads will do....
.
.


well.. recoil is something that each person tolerates differently. I shoot a nice old heavy gun with wooden stocks... my bud shoots a modern gun that I find kicks like a mule... though he doesn't mind it. Who's to say whats reasonable? I figure if you can get the gun up for a second shot then whatever recoil isn't a factor.

As far as range goes if they're equal in pellet mass and MV, then they're equal in range. The "heavy" load has a better percentage of making a kill on pellet count alone. Sure a lighter load can be made to go faster and thus kill further but your chances of making the hit are substantially lower anyway...

My 1 3/8 oz store bought are reliable, and consistent... pretty much the whole reason they're a multi-million dollar industry. Whats most important is whether or not I put the load on the bird and the only thing that reliably helps that is number of pellets in the sky and a good judge of lead.

I can't say an increase of 200 fps or so really makes a big difference, and I wouldn't sacrifice payload for it... I'd actually opt for less MV and more payload within reason.

Mugz.



The reason you probablly don't opt for fast loads is you can't reload them and/or your gun does not pattern them well.
As far as number of pellets in the sky doesn't assure you of a kill. I can hold 7/8 oz of B's together to 60 yds with a killing pattern killing Lessers. It takes 5 pellets with sufficient energy to kill geese and it takes 35 pellets in the pattern to do this. A Terror choke does this for me and the B's will penetrate to kill to 66.5 yds. 200 fps does not make a big difference, however going to a BB from a B will increase the kill distance 4 yds, thats 12 ft . Ned S


Lol... no wait... LMAO... ahem.... :huh:

What ?

Ahhh... crap.... I shouldn't have asked.

Mugz.


Sorry old man... I couldn't resist.

Please don't suggest that any of us can or can't do something... you're assuming things, and it's just bad form. I'd also like to see some of your information backed up with either your own math or someone else's for that matter. All this ".5 yds" and 5 in 35 make it sound like you're pulling numbers from some sort of idealistic scenario or test bench that no one ever see's in real life... tell me, what software you running?
:beer:

Mugz.

He's to arrogant to back any of his nonsense up.


All "nonsense" is backed up by over 2300 patterns steel shot, killing of waterfowl and Crains, having a rangefinder inspecting kills at certain distances, a copy of KPY shotgun ballistic data, two Chronys and access to Jonmacs pressure gun. You can't argue with idiots. Ned S
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Re: Why Incredibly Fast Shells

Postby Theduckguru » Sun Mar 02, 2014 8:13 am

eastcoastsoxfan wrote:52 yards for 2s makes sense!
65 yards is ridiculous
I'd love to see a killing 65 yard pattern of 2s from a 12ga, I'm going to say I never will because it's not possible


Enjoy

http://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=ipad& ... mcc=&pmnc=
Banded Birds - Mallard / Black Ducks, 3 Jack Miners and 25 AVISE. BW Teal - 2, Wood Ducks - 1, Morning Doves - 1, Snow/Ross - 2 (both reward bands), Canada Geese - 12 (2 neck collars)
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Re: Why Incredibly Fast Shells

Postby eastcoastsoxfan » Sun Mar 02, 2014 8:29 am

Theduckguru wrote:
eastcoastsoxfan wrote:52 yards for 2s makes sense!
65 yards is ridiculous
I'd love to see a killing 65 yard pattern of 2s from a 12ga, I'm going to say I never will because it's not possible


Enjoy

http://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=ipad& ... mcc=&pmnc=


I've seen those posted on here before, I'm pretty sure those videos had their own thread which sparked quite a discussion.I'm thinking Tom's rangefinder must of been calibrated wrong or something because I've yet to see a pattern anywhere on here or the net that would hold any kind of density at 65 yards. If you can show me a pattern, I might believe but I can't imagine the pellets having enough energy at that range.
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Re: Why Incredibly Fast Shells

Postby Mugzwump » Sun Mar 02, 2014 8:40 am

Jon Bergren wrote:
Frylock wrote:
Mugzwump wrote:
Mugzwump wrote:
Jon Bergren wrote:
Mugzwump wrote:
steelshotshooter wrote:A 7/8 oz. 12 ga. loads have a LOT less recoil than a 1 3/8 oz. load but, I'm not sure how far that heavy of a load will reliably and consistently kill ducks and geese. I know what the lighter loads will do....
.
.


well.. recoil is something that each person tolerates differently. I shoot a nice old heavy gun with wooden stocks... my bud shoots a modern gun that I find kicks like a mule... though he doesn't mind it. Who's to say whats reasonable? I figure if you can get the gun up for a second shot then whatever recoil isn't a factor.

As far as range goes if they're equal in pellet mass and MV, then they're equal in range. The "heavy" load has a better percentage of making a kill on pellet count alone. Sure a lighter load can be made to go faster and thus kill further but your chances of making the hit are substantially lower anyway...

My 1 3/8 oz store bought are reliable, and consistent... pretty much the whole reason they're a multi-million dollar industry. Whats most important is whether or not I put the load on the bird and the only thing that reliably helps that is number of pellets in the sky and a good judge of lead.

I can't say an increase of 200 fps or so really makes a big difference, and I wouldn't sacrifice payload for it... I'd actually opt for less MV and more payload within reason.

Mugz.



The reason you probablly don't opt for fast loads is you can't reload them and/or your gun does not pattern them well.
As far as number of pellets in the sky doesn't assure you of a kill. I can hold 7/8 oz of B's together to 60 yds with a killing pattern killing Lessers. It takes 5 pellets with sufficient energy to kill geese and it takes 35 pellets in the pattern to do this. A Terror choke does this for me and the B's will penetrate to kill to 66.5 yds. 200 fps does not make a big difference, however going to a BB from a B will increase the kill distance 4 yds, thats 12 ft . Ned S


Lol... no wait... LMAO... ahem.... :huh:

What ?

Ahhh... crap.... I shouldn't have asked.

Mugz.


Sorry old man... I couldn't resist.

Please don't suggest that any of us can or can't do something... you're assuming things, and it's just bad form. I'd also like to see some of your information backed up with either your own math or someone else's for that matter. All this ".5 yds" and 5 in 35 make it sound like you're pulling numbers from some sort of idealistic scenario or test bench that no one ever see's in real life... tell me, what software you running?
:beer:

Mugz.

He's to arrogant to back any of his nonsense up.


All "nonsense" is backed up by over 2300 patterns steel shot, killing of waterfowl and Crains, having a rangefinder inspecting kills at certain distances, a copy of KPY shotgun ballistic data, two Chronys and access to Jonmacs pressure gun. You can't argue with idiots. Ned S


No you can't.

You're still not backing anything up! Keep listing stuff... maybe that will help?

Mugz.
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Re: Why Incredibly Fast Shells

Postby Jon Bergren » Sun Mar 02, 2014 8:44 am

Theduckguru wrote:
eastcoastsoxfan wrote:52 yards for 2s makes sense!
65 yards is ridiculous
I'd love to see a killing 65 yard pattern of 2s from a 12ga, I'm going to say I never will because it's not possible


Enjoy

I have a Danish recipe of 1 oz in a Cheddite Hull that will go 1867 fps and with 2's will penetrate to 61.2 yds. That's getting close. This load patterns very well with 3's. The Danes also have 2000 fps load that will push it to 64 yds. I don't shoot this load because of the CIP pressures. The Danes do. You have to jump up to steel B's to get killing loads. Ned S
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Re: Why Incredibly Fast Shells

Postby eastcoastsoxfan » Sun Mar 02, 2014 8:56 am

Jon Bergren wrote:
Theduckguru wrote:
eastcoastsoxfan wrote:52 yards for 2s makes sense!
65 yards is ridiculous
I'd love to see a killing 65 yard pattern of 2s from a 12ga, I'm going to say I never will because it's not possible


Enjoy

I have a Danish recipe of 1 oz in a Cheddite Hull that will go 1867 fps and with 2's will penetrate to 61.2 yds. That's getting close. This load patterns very well with 3's. The Danes also hae 2000 fps load that will push it to 64 yds. I don't shoot this load because of the CIP pressures. The Danes do. You have to jump up to steel B's to get killing loads. Ned S


Ned,
I can see your velocities pulling off the penetration but 1400fps 2s is far fetched when every ballistic program says otherwise
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Re: Why Incredibly Fast Shells

Postby steelshotshooter » Sun Mar 02, 2014 9:04 am

I've read Rosters stuff for years and well....... To put it as mildly as I can, I think he's an idiot!

If you can shoot and kill ducks and geese - there it is....
.
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Re: Why Incredibly Fast Shells

Postby Mugzwump » Sun Mar 02, 2014 9:36 am

Okay, I ran some numbers this morning and I think everyone on this thread is right to a degree. A #2 @ 1400 fps *should* retain a velocity somewhere in the range of 650 - 1000 fps at 60 yards. ( worst and best case) I'm not using a computer for this just old school scribbling, so I am sure someone with some software can do better. This is a broad assumption on my part using wind as a handicap or aid... this makes sense to me, with the pellet flight time being between .12 and.18 of a second.

Adding 200 fps, will maybe give you 25 - 50 fps extra at 60 yards saving at best 0.01 seconds.

If we were to take a 1300 fps round and an 1800 fps round, you would see a much greater difference between the two and the faster round will reach further.

My theory about it all is still the same, the 1300-1400 fps round still carries at least 650 fps at 60 yards. Which is still sufficient to kill, why would I go any faster?

My conclusion as to why people like faster loads and some people don't is that those of us who were shooting 1300 fps all our lives have ingrained a certain " instinct" on how much to lead a shot; They will be pretty upset when you slip a 1800 fps round in and ask them to hit that duck at 60 yards, most likely shooting way out in front. The other way around, those of use that can't hit anything at all will be pleased by a fast round as the lead on the shot is reduced giving the inexperienced shooter a significant break in the learning curve.

If you routinely shoot at that distance, I now see no reason why you shouldn't use a high velocity round, and if patterns are equal to the lower velocity round, they are probably a better choice. (assuming we all can hit the target at all) Gains in performance would only be noticeable at increases of 500 fps or so.

As drag on a pellet is squared by velocity, your lead on the bird is increased or decreased by a function of the squared drag acting on the velocity resulting in time loss or gain. ( time is fnct of lead)



If you're conservative about the distances you shoot birds, increasing MV is of no substantial gain.

This does not address the issue of substituting velocity for payload... and I'm just running out of coffee so the hell with that.
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Re: Why Incredibly Fast Shells

Postby steelshotshooter » Sun Mar 02, 2014 9:50 am

Thanks for your time and effort to post that Mugz.... :beer:
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Re: Why Incredibly Fast Shells

Postby baltz526 » Sun Mar 02, 2014 10:03 am

Now that everyone said all that. What most of us found by use of lead shot, before the steel shot mandate. For steel shot when we shoot it 200-300fps faster than the old lead loads and use a shot size 2-3 sizes larger. We have the same killing ability as we used to, out to a reasonable range. Lets call it 55yrds. Why incredibly fast shells? No reason at all.
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Re: Why Incredibly Fast Shells

Postby Frank Lopez » Sun Mar 02, 2014 10:06 am

Mugzwump wrote:My theory about it all is still the same, the 1300-1400 fps round still carries at least 650 fps at 60 yards. Which is still sufficient to kill, why would I go any faster?


Actually, a #2 pellet started at 1400fps will be down to about 550fps at 60 yards. If you subscribe to the 600fps minimum terminal velocity, this really doesn't work for you. On the other hand, if you look at the penetration tables, 550fps for a #2 steel pellet is right on the cusp.

Frank
I feel slightly sorry for a man who has never patterned his gun, who has no idea how far his chosen load will retain killing penetration. But I'm extremely sorry for the ducks he shoots at beyond the killing range of his gun and load - Bob Brister
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Re: Why Incredibly Fast Shells

Postby On the X » Sun Mar 02, 2014 10:11 am

Frank Lopez wrote:
Mugzwump wrote:My theory about it all is still the same, the 1300-1400 fps round still carries at least 650 fps at 60 yards. Which is still sufficient to kill, why would I go any faster?


Actually, a #2 pellet started at 1400fps will be down to about 550fps at 60 yards. If you subscribe to the 600fps minimum terminal velocity, this really doesn't work for you. On the other hand, if you look at the penetration tables, 550fps for a #2 steel pellet is right on the cusp.

Frank

What is the "cusp" Frank? And I'm not being argumentative with you this time, I'm actually trying to learn something lol
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Re: Why Incredibly Fast Shells

Postby Frank Lopez » Sun Mar 02, 2014 10:23 am

Cusp - the edge, the limit, the break over point, etc.

One thing you have to remember about penetration in ballistic gel is that it is something of a conservative approximation. In reality it is just a comparison against a standard, as ballistic gel has little in common with an actual duck. (i.e. no feathers, no fat, no elastic skin, no bones, etc.) A pellet striking the head or neck of a duck will need a heck of a lot less penetration to be lethal than the same pellet striking the thorax.

Still, experience tells us that some minimal penetration distance into ballistic gel will penetrate sufficiently into ducks to kill. About an inch and a quarter usually works for ducks.

Frank
I feel slightly sorry for a man who has never patterned his gun, who has no idea how far his chosen load will retain killing penetration. But I'm extremely sorry for the ducks he shoots at beyond the killing range of his gun and load - Bob Brister
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Re: Why Incredibly Fast Shells

Postby Mugzwump » Sun Mar 02, 2014 10:55 am

Frank Lopez wrote:
Mugzwump wrote:My theory about it all is still the same, the 1300-1400 fps round still carries at least 650 fps at 60 yards. Which is still sufficient to kill, why would I go any faster?


Actually, a #2 pellet started at 1400fps will be down to about 550fps at 60 yards. If you subscribe to the 600fps minimum terminal velocity, this really doesn't work for you. On the other hand, if you look at the penetration tables, 550fps for a #2 steel pellet is right on the cusp.

Frank


Oh yea? I guess I breezed over something... must be my shortcuts on air resistance, or I'm just flaking out hard on something... I was thinking the 650 fps made more sense than the high-end of my calculations... even still if we drop to 550fps and ignore my high-end crap the general comparisons between the two muzzle velocties are still valid...

I think 600 fps is very high for a minimum velocity.. maybe a minimum to go through the chest, but definitely not a minimum to kill in general.

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Re: Why Incredibly Fast Shells

Postby Mugzwump » Sun Mar 02, 2014 11:01 am

something else that I've never really considered is how much pellets leaving the wad last would be slower than those leaving first? I would imagine the velocity drops significantly in those first milliseconds that the pellet mass is in the shape of a large cylinder wrapped in rapidly deforming plastic. Once it all opens up calculations for a single pellet would be more accurate, using the lower MV.

?

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Re: Why Incredibly Fast Shells

Postby steelshotshooter » Sun Mar 02, 2014 11:10 am

Mugz,

are you referring to "shot string"?
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Re: Why Incredibly Fast Shells

Postby On the X » Sun Mar 02, 2014 11:27 am

Frank Lopez wrote:Cusp - the edge, the limit, the break over point, etc.

One thing you have to remember about penetration in ballistic gel is that it is something of a conservative approximation. In reality it is just a comparison against a standard, as ballistic gel has little in common with an actual duck. (i.e. no feathers, no fat, no elastic skin, no bones, etc.) A pellet striking the head or neck of a duck will need a heck of a lot less penetration to be lethal than the same pellet striking the thorax.

Still, experience tells us that some minimal penetration distance into ballistic gel will penetrate sufficiently into ducks to kill. About an inch and a quarter usually works for ducks.

Frank

Think I will pick up a whole chicken, tether it up. shoot it, check penetration depth, then cook it and eat it. If I need one with feathers I will have to steal one the night before from the guy up the road before I run the test.
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