The gaep black hole sucked me in

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Re: The gaep black hole sucked me in

Postby lostknife4 » Mon Mar 17, 2014 6:21 pm

Electrical supplied frequency in North America is 60 Hertz not 50 so the electric motor would have to be changed.
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Re: The gaep black hole sucked me in

Postby UmatillaJeff » Mon Mar 17, 2014 7:10 pm

Those are beautiful presses to watch but overkill for he kind of precision called for. It's not match ammo for 1000 yard shooting. Once the proper patterning load is found, the loading process we use that is far simpler is just fine. It really does not require all that. Jeff
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Re: The gaep black hole sucked me in

Postby culot » Tue Mar 18, 2014 12:46 am

UmatillaJeff wrote:Those are beautiful presses to watch but overkill for he kind of precision called for. It's not match ammo for 1000 yard shooting. Once the proper patterning load is found, the loading process we use that is far simpler is just fine. It really does not require all that. Jeff


I'm not a bench rest shooter, nerd maby :smile: I started like everyone with a Lee load all in late -80 , then a Mec Sizemaster 77
then a PW 375C and 2011 i bought a gaep T3 crimper .... then the italian way of loading hit me :hammer:

My press isn't a " Rolls " Cortini is a Rolls , and for progressive press OMV-SIMPLY is a rolls , and for me to buy it

is less money vs a MEC 9000 auto..

/ Peter
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Re: The gaep black hole sucked me in

Postby culot » Tue Mar 18, 2014 2:13 am

lostknife4 wrote:Electrical supplied frequency in North America is 60 Hertz not 50 so the electric motor would have to be changed.
Lost


a SMART press + a drill will be a better solution for US , this motor is a special version of washing-machine motor.

Q: aren't they any "adapters " ??


/ Peter
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Re: The gaep black hole sucked me in

Postby culot » Tue Mar 18, 2014 2:36 am

slowshooter wrote:Wait, no one gets better patterns with roll crimpin'?


It depends what you mean with " better" , if tighter pattern is better rollcrimp if nothing for you.

But they will fill the outer ring in pattern " better " so if you want your first round be more open rollcrimp

can be an option.. and off course it looks cool :lol3: same as copperplated shot in a transparent hull.

And if you want a minimum of equipment, rolllcrimp with a gaep / omv crimp head is the way to go,

just weight powder and shot by hand, place a plastic/card disk over shot and roll down, and your done .

/ Peter
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Re: The gaep black hole sucked me in

Postby solway gunner » Tue Mar 18, 2014 4:30 am

culot wrote:
rollcrimp T2special.JPG
I did this with the Gaep T2sp crimp tool, you don't
need a extra rollcrimp tool. but for best result use new non-skived hulls

/ Peter


Hold the bus there..!
You can actualy shallow roll crimp some loadings with a Gaep crimp finisher as featured above,like when you havent much column height which is fine.However,its not something i advertise due to one simple reason-depth.The crimp finishers wont roll as deep as a traditional "roll crimping tool" because simply they werent designed to.,they are designed to finish a crimp to factory standard to a pre set depth over a set crimp and that is it,they wont go any further.,Gaeps roll crimping tools product code is OTP for the record and yes,i sell them although i dont have them listed .
You guys talk amongst yourselves about it ,but horses for courses here,dont buy one on the pretense that it will do both ,because they dont and again-they are not designed to (although they do to a degree-)buy a traditional roll crimping tool -ANY brand make for that job alone if thats what you need to do.
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Re: The gaep black hole sucked me in

Postby culot » Tue Mar 18, 2014 4:54 am

solway gunner wrote:
culot wrote:
rollcrimp T2special.JPG
I did this with the Gaep T2sp crimp tool, you don't
need a extra rollcrimp tool. but for best result use new non-skived hulls

/ Peter


Hold the bus there..!
You can actualy shallow roll crimp some loadings with a Gaep crimp finisher as featured above,like when you havent much column height which is fine.However,its not something i advertise due to one simple reason-depth.The crimp finishers wont roll as deep as a traditional "roll crimping tool" because simply they werent designed to.,they are designed to finish a crimp to factory standard to a pre set depth over a set crimp and that is it,they wont go any further.,Gaeps roll crimping tools product code is OTP for the record and yes,i sell them although i dont have them listed .
You guys talk amongst yourselves about it ,but horses for courses here,dont buy one on the pretense that it will do both ,because they dont and again-they are not designed to (although they do to a degree-)buy a traditional roll crimping tool -ANY brand make for that job alone if thats what you need to do.


Have you tryed rollcrimp using a gaep T2 special ? If not , try one !
Was it any wrong with my rollcrimped shell?

For me it's better have 1 tool instead of 2 ... and i roll my shell with 10-11mm space down to shot.
I have a little more roundness on the rim, but i want them that way. another thing that's not so much talk
of here, is the use of non-scived hulls when rollcrimping , they give way better result vs scived hulls.
and my tool don't give any spin marks of my clear disk , like some special Rollcrimp tool does.

/peter
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Re: The gaep black hole sucked me in

Postby 3200 man » Tue Mar 18, 2014 6:35 am

Peter

At what RPM's are you running the Gaep tool to roll crimp ?
Thinking that a roll crimp is best used for full payload weight , is there any difference in performance over a fold crimp
using the Gaep tool to finish it ?

I use both the BN 2 and the BN 4 for my loads and get very good S/D around 15/20 fps , what more does a guy want ?
I have found wad pressure is the key and being able to hold it there with the Gaep tool , has worked for me !
Most of our Factory loads are Skived so , this is helpful with the fold crimp and better when Gaep finished in all gauges .

The right tool for the job makes for a better finished project.........for me ! :thumbsup:
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Re: The gaep black hole sucked me in

Postby lostknife4 » Tue Mar 18, 2014 6:51 am

X² on the above 3 posts.

Solway is spot on with his comments, I cut hulls and RTO/OTP them with no skive.
It has only been in the last little while that the BN series has been available for 10 ga and that was because of Solways efforts to get GAEP to manufacture them. My BN 10 Ga was bought from Solway but my OTP was purchased many years ago.

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Re: The gaep black hole sucked me in

Postby solway gunner » Tue Mar 18, 2014 7:05 am

culot wrote:
solway gunner wrote:
culot wrote:
rollcrimp T2special.JPG
I did this with the Gaep T2sp crimp tool, you don't
need a extra rollcrimp tool. but for best result use new non-skived hulls

/ Peter


Hold the bus there..!
You can actualy shallow roll crimp some loadings with a Gaep crimp finisher as featured above,like when you havent much column height which is fine.However,its not something i advertise due to one simple reason-depth.The crimp finishers wont roll as deep as a traditional "roll crimping tool" because simply they werent designed to.,they are designed to finish a crimp to factory standard to a pre set depth over a set crimp and that is it,they wont go any further.,Gaeps roll crimping tools product code is OTP for the record and yes,i sell them although i dont have them listed .
You guys talk amongst yourselves about it ,but horses for courses here,dont buy one on the pretense that it will do both ,because they dont and again-they are not designed to (although they do to a degree-)buy a traditional roll crimping tool -ANY brand make for that job alone if thats what you need to do.


Have you tryed rollcrimp using a gaep T2 special ? If not , try one !
Was it any wrong with my rollcrimped shell?

For me it's better have 1 tool instead of 2 ... and i roll my shell with 10-11mm space down to shot.
I have a little more roundness on the rim, but i want them that way. another thing that's not so much talk
of here, is the use of non-scived hulls when rollcrimping , they give way better result vs scived hulls.
and my tool don't give any spin marks of my clear disk , like some special Rollcrimp tool does.

/peter


Yes of course ive tried them,why wouldnt i have done.
The point ive had to make on here is in reply to your posting which resulted in questions being PMd to me ,hence my post.
Im pointing out the technical differences between heads,and looking closely at your picture proves this,if your happy,great,thats all that matters.
I dont think youl find many US suppliers of non skived hulls as fold crimping predominates the US reloading scene so they are not a requirement,hence the lack of interest in roll crimping.
Last edited by solway gunner on Tue Mar 18, 2014 1:08 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: The gaep black hole sucked me in

Postby lostknife4 » Tue Mar 18, 2014 7:14 am

culot wrote:
lostknife4 wrote:Electrical supplied frequency in North America is 60 Hertz not 50 so the electric motor would have to be changed.
Lost


a SMART press + a drill will be a better solution for US , this motor is a special version of washing-machine motor.

Q: aren't they any "adapters " ??


/ Peter


A drill press is a very economical solution but to my knowledge there is no economical "adapter" available to change operating frequency of motors from 50 to 60 hertz.
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Re: The gaep black hole sucked me in

Postby DoubleDutchChuck » Tue Mar 18, 2014 2:54 pm

I loaded a lot of rounds back in the 50's and 60's with a roll crimper and was happy to use the new process of the folded crimp. Being a teenager back then, I didn't think of testing or trying "progressive" loads. All I wanted to do is load the recipe and go back to the blind....shooting. I''m sure there are RTO loads that perform beautifully, but for myself, I find it easier to use folded crimp loads that produce the performance that I like. Now being permanently retired, I may "play" with RTO loads again.
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Re: The gaep black hole sucked me in

Postby lostknife4 » Tue Mar 18, 2014 2:59 pm

Slow loading etc, it's more fun !! Especially the etc !
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Re: The gaep black hole sucked me in

Postby culot » Tue Mar 18, 2014 3:26 pm

solway gunner wrote:
culot wrote:
solway gunner wrote:
culot wrote:
rollcrimp T2special.JPG
I did this with the Gaep T2sp crimp tool, you don't
need a extra rollcrimp tool. but for best result use new non-skived hulls

/ Peter


Hold the bus there..!
You can actualy shallow roll crimp some loadings with a Gaep crimp finisher as featured above,like when you havent much column height which is fine.However,its not something i advertise due to one simple reason-depth.The crimp finishers wont roll as deep as a traditional "roll crimping tool" because simply they werent designed to.,they are designed to finish a crimp to factory standard to a pre set depth over a set crimp and that is it,they wont go any further.,Gaeps roll crimping tools product code is OTP for the record and yes,i sell them although i dont have them listed .
You guys talk amongst yourselves about it ,but horses for courses here,dont buy one on the pretense that it will do both ,because they dont and again-they are not designed to (although they do to a degree-)buy a traditional roll crimping tool -ANY brand make for that job alone if thats what you need to do.


Have you tryed rollcrimp using a gaep T2 special ? If not , try one !
Was it any wrong with my rollcrimped shell?

For me it's better have 1 tool instead of 2 ... and i roll my shell with 10-11mm space down to shot.
I have a little more roundness on the rim, but i want them that way. another thing that's not so much talk
of here, is the use of non-scived hulls when rollcrimping , they give way better result vs scived hulls.
and my tool don't give any spin marks of my clear disk , like some special Rollcrimp tool does.

/peter


Yes of course ive tried them,why wouldnt i have done.
The point ive had to make on here is in reply to your posting which resulted in questions being PMd to me ,hence my post.
Im pointing out the technical differences between heads,and looking closely at your picture proves this,if your happy,great,thats all that matters.
I dont think youl find many US suppliers of non skived hulls as fold crimping predominates the US reloading scene so they are not a requirement,hence the lack of interest in roll crimping.


Both Fiocchi an cheddite have them ? My supplier in italy sell them in 2000 price pack, and when i want skived hulls i done it my self with a conical cutter .

/ Peter
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Re: The gaep black hole sucked me in

Postby culot » Tue Mar 18, 2014 3:36 pm

3200 man wrote:Peter

At what RPM's are you running the Gaep tool to roll crimp ?
Thinking that a roll crimp is best used for full payload weight , is there any difference in performance over a fold crimp
using the Gaep tool to finish it ?

I use both the BN 2 and the BN 4 for my loads and get very good S/D around 15/20 fps , what more does a guy want ?
I have found wad pressure is the key and being able to hold it there with the Gaep tool , has worked for me !
Most of our Factory loads are Skived so , this is helpful with the fold crimp and better when Gaep finished in all gauges .

The right tool for the job makes for a better finished project.........for me ! :thumbsup:


3200,

From beginning this motor on my gaep press is 1300 rpm , but i think factory take rpm down in electronic way , 900 rpm
So i use same speed . We load mostly lead, maby there are diffrent with steel , i havn't tested .

/Peter
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Re: The gaep black hole sucked me in

Postby 3200 man » Tue Mar 18, 2014 4:28 pm

Thanks Peter

750 to 800 rpms seems to work best on my drill press ( with a little lube ), I was wondering because I see the Collini press
working a little faster at finishing those loads , pretty much a down and out operation , when I have to hit it maybe twice
once to get it started and another to bottom out the drill stop .

This gives me a prefect load every time with lead or steel shot , with the right Gaep tool !

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Re: The gaep black hole sucked me in

Postby culot » Wed Mar 19, 2014 1:48 am

Nikos crimp.jpg
3200 man wrote:Thanks Peter

750 to 800 rpms seems to work best on my drill press ( with a little lube ), I was wondering because I see the Collini press
working a little faster at finishing those loads , pretty much a down and out operation , when I have to hit it maybe twice
once to get it started and another to bottom out the drill stop .

This gives me a prefect load every time with lead or steel shot , with the right Gaep tool !

3200 man


I havn't load so much steel yet, it's trickier that's for sure because of the stiff shot colume. I have 2 different crimpers
a Bn2 that orginally came with my VS-1500 press, and at T2special ( orginally designed by a Greece named Nikos )
The Bn2 is not good, not even for lead and there is probably something wrong with my exemplar because i have friend who
have the same and no problem. The T2special is way better, i like the design with deeper center of crimp and better taper
or " roundness " of rim ( did i get it right? ) T2 special seems work better even with steel, and i also benefit from my
extra station before final crimp. this tool make a triangular cone and really help me close some loads. You can see how it
looks in pict of the omv- SMART press and the blue shells , the one in middle have that cone.... and i will see if i have a pict
of my tool. about speed of crimp, from what i heard of the Italians 900rpm is best.

/ Peter
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Re: The gaep black hole sucked me in

Postby 3200 man » Wed Mar 19, 2014 5:53 am

I load my lead loads on the Mec 9000 , it doesn't take long for a flat of shells . I use the Gaep (BN 2)tool on specialty loads ,
some standard loads and others that I use for money shoots (Games) , long target shooting . With Hunting loads it depends on
what upland bird I'm after , some need more speed/bigger shot as they can take a licking if not hit hard . I find that with the
Gaep tool , I need less Buffer for a really good long range load ! :hammer:
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Re: The gaep black hole sucked me in

Postby Solwaycalls » Sat Apr 19, 2014 4:17 am

Has anyone tried a comparison loading the 10g with and without the Gaep finish on a crimped load ?
I did get some loads from 10goakie back in Oct 13 and when I asked him does he Gaep his reply was yes I Gaep all my loads and now on here he is saying he has never seen a Gaep tool so I am a bit confused.
I have found that with a Gaep finish it DOES PUT LOADS OVER PRESSURE and you need to drop your powder.

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Re: The gaep black hole sucked me in

Postby Rob MacK » Sat Apr 19, 2014 6:38 am

Solwaycalls wrote:Has anyone tried a comparison loading the 10g with and without the Gaep finish on a crimped load ?
I did get some loads from 10goakie back in Oct 13 and when I asked him does he Gaep his reply was yes I Gaep all my loads and now on here he is saying he has never seen a Gaep tool so I am a bit confused.
I have found that with a Gaep finish it DOES PUT LOADS OVER PRESSURE and you need to drop your powder.

Eddie



Not yet but I will soon. i just have not had the time for it. How did you determine they were over pressure and buy how much typically did you drop your powder?

Thanks

Rob
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Re: The gaep black hole sucked me in

Postby lostknife4 » Sat Apr 19, 2014 6:48 am

Solwaycalls wrote:Has anyone tried a comparison loading the 10g with and without the Gaep finish on a crimped load ?
I did get some loads from 10goakie back in Oct 13 and when I asked him does he Gaep his reply was yes I Gaep all my loads and now on here he is saying he has never seen a Gaep tool so I am a bit confused.
I have found that with a Gaep finish it DOES PUT LOADS OVER PRESSURE and you need to drop your powder.

Eddie


I think Chris's RTO crimper is one of the older RTO style from BPI the same as my older 10 ga unit with a cross pin to form the crimp rather than the ramps that GAEP have.

My experience has been, from the old Lead days when I did a lot of RTO crimping and when they first started manufacturing plastic hulls , with an equal load, the fold crimp on a once fired plastic would flatten the primer more than the RTO. It is generally accepted that an RTO crimp will have less peak pressure than a fold crimp with today's plastic hulls and I still prefer the RTO for all my TSS loadings in all gauges.

I too would like to hear how you have determined that the GAEP RTO are over pressure and what the pressure actually is.

I am assuming your GAEP is an RTO, Roll turn over tool using an over shot card and not the GAEP finishing tool for fold crimp hulls.

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Re: The gaep black hole sucked me in

Postby 10gaOkie » Sat Apr 19, 2014 9:29 am

Using the gaep finish head on my 10ga load, I have seen no significant pressure increase. First of all my pet 10ga load is not at the ragged edge of max pressure. I have loaded it with 46gr at one time and now load it at 45gr. So it is a full grain less than max. The addition of the gaep finish does not make a change in the way the fired primers look which is what I go by to keep my loads safe. My loads are in the 10500 to 11K range. 12K loads in 10ga will take their toll using Fed hulls in the long run.
Concerning rto crimps vs folded, using the same recipe, by using a rto crimp instead of the folded, I load with plus one grain for the rto version to keep pressures the same.

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Re: The gaep black hole sucked me in

Postby Solwaycalls » Sat Apr 19, 2014 11:59 am

I am talking about crimp closure followed by Gaep finish to close the crimp, I have found that loads that work ok without Gaep finish and just crimped on a mec machine look ok when the empty case is examined, the same load when Gaep finished has blown the brass badly and in some instances jammed my sp10 solid.
If I give an example, fed case, 209 a,mm wad, 42 grains A/Steel, 42 gram or 1 1/2oz bbb steel, shot with crimp only looks fine and chronograph ed at 1450, Gaep finish after crimp the same load jammed my gun and completely blew the rim off the brass head.
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Re: The gaep black hole sucked me in

Postby 10gaOkie » Sat Apr 19, 2014 2:56 pm

For the most part, in my 10ga reloads, I use Fed hull, Fed primer, RSI or MM wad and 1 1/2oz payload. I crimp the same way you do, normal crimp on mec and then finish with gaep. I have seen nothing like the problem you spoke of. I would suspect something else is going on. I have also shot some mighty still 10ga reloads, however, I have never locked up the action on my shotgun for sure. Both SP10 and Gold10. Only your fired primer condition would detect a excessive pressure problem.

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Re: The gaep black hole sucked me in

Postby Solwaycalls » Sat Apr 19, 2014 3:22 pm

Thanks Chris, do you think the 42 grain load should be OK with Gaep over Crimp ?
I have checked and calibrated my scales with another set and all is ok.
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