A steel?

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A steel?

Postby hamernhonkers » Sun Mar 02, 2014 8:52 pm

Ok DHC brain trust I need help with a question and I need a brain jolt.

First, I am going to try a 28 gauge load with HW13 and steel powder. It calls for 20 grains of powder and lists at 11300 psi and 1370 fps. I want to get the speed down to closer to 1200 fps. Would your try reducing the load by 1 or 2 grains of powder.

Next I have 9lbs of lot 14 steel powder, was that not a hotter batch of steel powder? If so what would you do with the question above?

Thanks in advance for all thoughts.

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Re: A steel?

Postby hamernhonkers » Mon Mar 03, 2014 10:27 pm

Wow not one reply. So not normal for this forum :shock:

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Re: A steel?

Postby derbyacresbob » Mon Mar 03, 2014 10:44 pm

hamernhonkers wrote:Wow not one reply. So not normal for this forum :shock:

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You didn't wait long enough for a reply.LOL I posted a video hunt in the trapping and predator Forum on this web-site last March. That video post has 976 views and not one reply. LOL


I think I would just drop that load 1 grain of Steel powder not 2 grains. What is the weight of the shot charge?
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Re: A steel?

Postby hamernhonkers » Mon Mar 03, 2014 11:35 pm

derbyacresbob wrote:
hamernhonkers wrote:Wow not one reply. So not normal for this forum :shock:

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You didn't wait long enough for a reply.LOL I posted a video hunt in the trapping and predator Forum on this web-site last March. That video post has 976 views and not one reply. LOL


I think I would just drop that load 1 grain of Steel powder not 2 grains. What is the weight of the shot charge?


Lol

Its a 13/16 oz load. I plan on trying it at 19 grains to start and then go from there. Fortunately Toasty gave me some great feedback and advice on what might occur.

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Re: A steel?

Postby 10gaOkie » Mon Mar 03, 2014 11:37 pm

Lot number 15 and 17 were faster burning than lower lot numbers. I am not sure about 14. I would do that load with 18gr and see where you are at on the chrony. Just keep an eye on your fired primers and look for excess pressure sign there.

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Re: A steel?

Postby lostknife4 » Tue Mar 04, 2014 6:25 am

I think DDC or BTJustice advised us about the change in ASteel and I think it occurred somewhere around the Lot 14, I stand to be corrected on this. So it really depends not only on the Data but the date the data was presented, unfortunately that information is not posted with the data listings so no way to know what Lot the data was developed with.
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Re: A steel?

Postby baltz526 » Tue Mar 04, 2014 10:58 am

The alliant data book I have is AP177-9080 Copyright 2009. On it is: Technical questions call 1-800-276-9337
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Re: A steel?

Postby lostknife4 » Tue Mar 04, 2014 12:42 pm

I have that same publication and my telcon questions to Alliant were:

What Lot number identifies the increased energy level of ASteel powder?
What is the degree of energy increase?
What is the recommended powder reduction for the transition to the new power level ASteel ?
What Lot number ASteel was used to develop the loadings listed in the 2009 Reloader's Guide?

Left as a voice mail, no reply yet.

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Re: A steel?

Postby hamernhonkers » Tue Mar 04, 2014 9:44 pm

lostknife4 wrote:I think DDC or BTJustice advised us about the change in ASteel and I think it occurred somewhere around the Lot 14, I stand to be corrected on this.
Lost


This is what I have in my head as well was lot 14 was hotter batch.

As Toasty told me a 2 grain drop would = a 10% reduction in the load at 20 grains which is quite a drop. I think I will stick with starting at 19 and check the signs and go from there.

Thanks for the feedback guys :thumbsup:

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Re: A steel?

Postby baltz526 » Mon Mar 10, 2014 7:55 pm

I just got 4 4lb jugs of steel. the number on them are: 026 2 04 30 13. I read that as LOT 026 shift #2, 4/30/13
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Re: A steel?

Postby lostknife4 » Tue Mar 11, 2014 7:38 am

baltz526 wrote:I just got 4 4lb jugs of steel. the number on them are: 026 2 04 30 13. I read that as LOT 026 shift #2, 4/30/13


Sounds about right Baltz,
Image

Top left follows your convention but in the format:
Aug 15, 2009
Shift Z
Lot 017

Top right:
024
Z
071411

All I can really interpret from the bottom one is that it is Lot # 014 and the canister top states "New River Energetics Inc, Radford, Virginia, 24141"

I still have not heard back from Alliant about the time line for the change in energy by Lot # or what Lot # was used to produce the Data in the Loading Data Book as described above.

Lost

The bar codes are all identical
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Re: A steel?

Postby Sagebrush » Tue Mar 11, 2014 9:50 am

You might also look up the data with 800-x and SR 4756 with a 28 Ga. trap load that are around 1200 fps,
to see if that might fill the bill too.
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Re: A steel?

Postby lostknife4 » Tue Mar 11, 2014 10:01 am

I use both in my 28 ga along with LilGun for the TSS
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Re: A steel?

Postby solway gunner » Tue Mar 11, 2014 1:41 pm

hamernhonkers wrote:Wow not one reply. So not normal for this forum :shock:

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Jesse-what you chasing -chipmunk..? :biggrin:
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Re: A steel?

Postby hamernhonkers » Tue Mar 11, 2014 8:25 pm

solway gunner wrote:
hamernhonkers wrote:Wow not one reply. So not normal for this forum :shock:

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Jesse-what you chasing -chipmunk..? :biggrin:



Kev, we've had an outbreak of rabid flying squirrels at my cabin :eek: The problem is I need a fast light gun that I can swing quick and accurately as I have a very short window of opportunity for a shot as they fly from tree to tree. If I were to use steel or lead I would need a payload that only a 10 bore could throw but as you can see the situation I am in requires me to use small high density shot from a light small gun to correctly do the job :yes: :hi: :lol3:
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Re: A steel?

Postby hamernhonkers » Tue Mar 11, 2014 8:29 pm

Sagebrush wrote:You might also look up the data with 800-x and SR 4756 with a 28 Ga. trap load that are around 1200 fps,
to see if that might fill the bill too.


I actually wanted to use 800x or little gun as those were the other two powders for the load data I got. At the time I could not find one of those powders to save my arse and it was looking like I had no choice but to use steel powder to start with. Fortunately I came across one bottle of 800x and grabbed it and the load seems to be a keeper with it :thumbsup:
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Re: A steel?

Postby solway gunner » Wed Mar 12, 2014 2:44 am

hamernhonkers wrote:
solway gunner wrote:
hamernhonkers wrote:Wow not one reply. So not normal for this forum :shock:

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Jesse-what you chasing -chipmunk..? :biggrin:



Kev, we've had an outbreak of rabid flying squirrels at my cabin :eek: The problem is I need a fast light gun that I can swing quick and accurately as I have a very short window of opportunity for a shot as they fly from tree to tree. If I were to use steel or lead I would need a payload that only a 10 bore could throw but as you can see the situation I am in requires me to use small high density shot from a light small gun to correctly do the job :yes: :hi: :lol3:



seriously?? :lol3: i can picture the scene ,with little holes all over the cabin and you chasing them round blasting away in Elmer Fudd fashion.. :hammer: priceless.. pics please.. :yes:
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Re: A steel?

Postby BT Justice » Wed Mar 12, 2014 4:51 am

lostknife4 wrote:I think DDC or BTJustice advised us about the change in ASteel and I think it occurred somewhere around the Lot 14, I stand to be corrected on this. So it really depends not only on the Data but the date the data was presented, unfortunately that information is not posted with the data listings so no way to know what Lot the data was developed with.
Lost

You won't get an answer from Alliant about this and if you do more than likely it will be the powder is in spec.
What they don't tell you is there are no specific specs for powder formulation as it's all proprietary.

Here's my take on the whole thing..it may be wrong but it's going off information I received.
The older lots of canister grade STEEL were a bit slower than the newer lots, I believe they never really changed the formulation for STEEL just the amount of burn retardant used on it.
STEEL relies heavily on burn retardant to get a controlled (read that controllable) burn rate, remember I keep preaching about this being a High Energy powder. When they have as much Nitroglycerin content in a powder as many of these high energy powders have it gets harder and harder to get a controlled burn out of it, basically it becomes more like an explosive and less like a reloading powder or propellant if you will. So they have the additional task of using just enough but not to much burn retardant on STEEL to keep it in their specs, which makes a lot of these high energy powders different than standard reloading powders we are used to.
They use to much burn retardant and you have a hard to ignite powder that doesn't work well with very light loads (could be the reason for the disappearance of many of the AllIant 7/8 oz loads a few years ago), to little burn retardant and then you have a right now powder that goes overpressure very fast with minor changes to a recipe..al la Longshot.
Basically a balancing act they have to maintain, older lots of STEEL were slower but they usually were within 10% of the burn rate of newer Lots of STEEL, except for the Lot 2 stuff the jury is still out on that one.
That's why no one has ever officially acknowledged any Lots of STEEL are different from any others, they make it and then hopefully it comes in at some kind of spec they set or not. I believe the reason newer lots are a bit hotter than the older ones is to try and compensate for poor ignition qualities, how much they have is the question.
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Re: A steel?

Postby lostknife4 » Wed Mar 12, 2014 6:16 am

Makes a lot of sense to me.
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Re: A steel?

Postby hamernhonkers » Wed Mar 12, 2014 10:21 am

BT your post makes a lot of sense :thumbsup:

Question for you and anyone else, how long then would you trust A steel in storage before things began to break down and affect its consistency and safety?
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Re: A steel?

Postby hamernhonkers » Wed Mar 12, 2014 10:28 am

solway gunner wrote:
hamernhonkers wrote:
solway gunner wrote:
hamernhonkers wrote:Wow not one reply. So not normal for this forum :shock:

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Jesse-what you chasing -chipmunk..? :biggrin:



Kev, we've had an outbreak of rabid flying squirrels at my cabin :eek: The problem is I need a fast light gun that I can swing quick and accurately as I have a very short window of opportunity for a shot as they fly from tree to tree. If I were to use steel or lead I would need a payload that only a 10 bore could throw but as you can see the situation I am in requires me to use small high density shot from a light small gun to correctly do the job :yes: :hi: :lol3:



seriously?? :lol3: i can picture the scene ,with little holes all over the cabin and you chasing them round blasting away in Elmer Fudd fashion.. :hammer: priceless.. pics please.. :yes:



Kev, as soon as I get the load perfected and began the hunt I will post pics of everything just for you brother :lol3: :thumbsup:
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Re: A steel?

Postby nitram » Wed Mar 12, 2014 2:12 pm

hamernhonkers wrote:BT your post makes a lot of sense :thumbsup:

Question for you and anyone else, how long then would you trust A steel in storage before things began to break down and affect its consistency and safety?



It really depends on your storage. If it's somewhat temp controlled but more especially DRY, you shouldn't have an issue. For example, I have some STEEL from '99 that my last two years worth of primary honker rounds (around 6K) were loaded with and no issues. I also have some W-W 231 from '92 & some IMR-4895 from '89 (both 8 lb'ers) and they produce the same results as when I opened the can(s), both on paper and the chrony.
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