Is a 3-1/2-Inch 12-Gauge More Effective?

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Re: Is a 3-1/2-Inch 12-Gauge More Effective?

Postby J J Mac » Tue Mar 04, 2014 11:36 am

J J Mac comments in red

z51 wrote:My loads are good to 60 yards with #1's for ducks Ballistic gel penetration=1.55 for 1550 3-ft velocity and BB' s for pass shooting geese Ballistic gel penetration = 2.04 for 1550 3 ft velocity. I don't like shooting farther than that and try to keep my shots under 50, although once I get zeroed in pass shooting geese 60 is not a problem.
I never shot a T or F in 20 years with the BPS. My SX has a set of long Briley's steel shot chokes that do well with my chosen load.
To each his own but if a guy can shoot the big twelve is plenty good. That's why the 10 is dying an antagonizing death and even 12 gauge target guns are coming out with 3 1/2" chambers these days!

Pretty good agreement with what I like to use - 1.5" for big ducks and 2.25" for big geese. For pass shooting if the bird orientation exposes the vitals for easy penetration, you can use a little lower numbers for gel penetration.
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Re: Is a 3-1/2-Inch 12-Gauge More Effective?

Postby mudpack » Tue Mar 04, 2014 11:42 am

As far as recoil goes, look at this vid.
http://www.remington.com/pages/versa-max.aspx
Go to the bottom of the page, click on the vid with the shells sitting on the bench.

In both cases, the 3 1/2" shell is the second shell fired.
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Re: Is a 3-1/2-Inch 12-Gauge More Effective?

Postby goosepit2007 » Tue Mar 04, 2014 11:50 am

for those that shoot over bored 12 gauges like 835/935. those 12 gauges in 31/2 inch match the ten gauge perty darn close for patterns ect. i have shot the over bores for years. i agree with the reglar bore and skinny bore the ten gauge is better then those shotguns with bigger payloads and bigger shot. but the backbored get close too the performance and then the over bores match the 10 gauges. i have been shooting over bored custom made shotgun since the first steel loads have been mandated.
the big thing with the over bores you can shoot bbb's and or t's in 3 inch load and get you way out there further then a guy should be shooting at the ducks and or geese. then guy goes to 31/2 11/2 t's they match the 10 gauge perty close. once guy get to t shot you really do not need the speed to be up there at all. 1450 fps is plenty for t's in 12 or 10 gauge.


just sayin

goose


I have loads that i can take with me that are 60 plus yard loads in my over bored 12 gauges and or i can bring the 10 gauge browning , i am set either way.
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Re: Is a 3-1/2-Inch 12-Gauge More Effective?

Postby z51 » Tue Mar 04, 2014 11:56 am

J J Mac wrote:J J Mac comments in red

z51 wrote:My loads are good to 60 yards with #1's for ducks Ballistic gel penetration=1.55 for 1550 3-ft velocity and BB' s for pass shooting geese Ballistic gel penetration = 2.04 for 1550 3 ft velocity. I don't like shooting farther than that and try to keep my shots under 50, although once I get zeroed in pass shooting geese 60 is not a problem.
I never shot a T or F in 20 years with the BPS. My SX has a set of long Briley's steel shot chokes that do well with my chosen load.
To each his own but if a guy can shoot the big twelve is plenty good. That's why the 10 is dying an antagonizing death and even 12 gauge target guns are coming out with 3 1/2" chambers these days!

Pretty good agreement with what I like to use - 1.5" for big ducks and 2.25" for big geese. For pass shooting if the bird orientation exposes the vitals for easy penetration, you can use a little lower numbers for gel penetration.


Thanks for adding in the numbers, I don't have that program just many years of experience. BTW, most of the geese we pass shoot are snows and specks going to and from their roosting spots. They go down pretty hard with that BB load.
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Re: Is a 3-1/2-Inch 12-Gauge More Effective?

Postby 3200 man » Tue Mar 04, 2014 12:10 pm

I also agree with the SSB software for penetration and only if you can consistently hit what you're shooting at , at that range !

I have a little experience as to what works best (for me) too ! :thumbsup:
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Re: Is a 3-1/2-Inch 12-Gauge More Effective?

Postby Yuchi1 » Tue Mar 04, 2014 12:56 pm

Meanwhile...back at the OP:

The guy stated they use lead loads for waterfowl in Turkey.

As he/they apparently have limited/no experience with steel cartridges, he was apparently having a bit of difficulty with correlating the referenced F&S article (BC steel loads) to the loads he is accustomed to using.

Therefore, to go off on a tangent with the "merits" of 3 1/2" 12 ga. vs. 3 1/2" 10 ga. steel loads while not serving the OP, is predictable for this place.

I shot 3" magnum 12 gauge lead loads from 1968-1986 and they were both effective on the birds and rough on the shoulder even with the Remington 1100 magnum I used. During that time period, I also shot 3 1/2" 10 gauge lead loads using a H&R single shot as well as a Richland Arms SXS. Those guns/loads were many yards (distance-wise) more effective than the 3" 12 gauge lead loads and with felt recoil on a par (with the H&R SS) and less (with the SXS) than the 12 gauge. There is no way I would attempt a steady diet of 3 1/2" 12 gauge lead loads in any 12 gauge shotgun as a detached retina is nowhere to be found on my bucket list.

So, to answer the gentleman's original question, the 3 1/2" 12 gauge lead loads kill on one end and maim on the other and for the life of me, would be hard pressed to say which was worse.
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Re: Is a 3-1/2-Inch 12-Gauge More Effective?

Postby z51 » Tue Mar 04, 2014 2:12 pm

He posted the same question over at SGW, and probably everywhere else. He is doing research for an article. Wakeman was pretty rude to him. Maybe you could strike up a friendship and get a mention in a Turkish article.
As usual 3200 got us going on the 3 1/2" haters road. :rolleyes: Now you are uping the auntie. How does that help?
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Re: Is a 3-1/2-Inch 12-Gauge More Effective?

Postby 3200 man » Tue Mar 04, 2014 3:01 pm

Yes I did , sorry fellas for my inconsiderate remarks and for carrying -on with Z51 , it was interesting tho at least ( to me)
what others feel is necessary to shoot for ammo and it's ( each ) their own's decision , Plus who cares what I or you shoot if it
works for you and your gun .

OP , I don't know what 3" / 3 1/2"ammo with lead will do as I only shot 2 3/4" lead loads for waterfowl from 1964 until steel shot
was mandated ( plus a little ) but I will tell you a bird inside of 70 yds was in trouble 50 percent of the time back then with
our buffered loads , and they kicked as well !
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Re: Is a 3-1/2-Inch 12-Gauge More Effective?

Postby solway gunner » Tue Mar 04, 2014 3:03 pm

duplicate
Last edited by solway gunner on Tue Mar 04, 2014 5:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Is a 3-1/2-Inch 12-Gauge More Effective?

Postby solway gunner » Tue Mar 04, 2014 3:10 pm

solway gunner wrote:
bilalarabaci wrote:Hello everyone,

I've read this article a couple times. But I can't understand some of the test results:
"The Truth About Shotgun Ammo: 6 Questions Answered at Federal's High-Tech Range"
http://www.fieldandstream.com/articles/ ... hogun-ammo

"12-gauge, 3-inch, 1-1⁄4-ounce loads of Black Cloud steel BB shot at 1450 fps (Modified choke)
12-gauge, 3-1⁄2-inch, 1-1⁄2-ounce loads of Black Cloud steel BB shot at 1500 fps (Modified choke)"

I'm confused by this comparison.

First of all, I’d like to mention that I’m writing from Turkey. Our hunting and shooting habits are different from the United States. For example the popular hunts are partridges, woodcock, quail, dove, woodpigeon, hare and wildboar. Duck and goose hunts aren’t so popular because of the natural conditions. We go duck and goose hunts on some paddy fields. And we use only lead shots.
I’d like to translate this article (The Truth About Shotgun Ammo) into Turkish language and share with the Turkish hunters and shooters but the tests become meaningless in many ways.
For example, the 3-1/2 inch’s “brutal recoil”?!
My understanding about a 3-1/2 inch load is the cartridge that heavier than a 3 inch load.
The heaviest 3 inch (76 mm Magnum) shotgun (lead) load is 1-3/4 ounces (50 grams) in Turkish shooting market.
3-1/2 inch (89 mm) loads are generally called “Super Magnum” in Europe.
The most popular 3-1/2 inch (89 mm Super Magnum)lead load is 2-3/8 oz. (66 grams) in Turkey. And it is marketed as a cartridge that “prolonging range by 25 meters/yards” by Italian cartridge manufacturer Clever Mirage.
I’ve been looking at this comparison over and over again but I can’t figure it out.
"12-gauge, 3-inch, 1-1⁄4-ounce loads (36 grams) of Black Cloud steel BB shot at 1450 fps (Modified choke)
12-gauge, 3-1⁄2-inch, 1-1⁄2-ounce loads (42 grams) of Black Cloud steel BB shot at 1500 fps (Modified choke)"
Federal’s 3-1/2 inch loads are available on Cabelas.com:
1-5/8 oz. (46 grams)
1-1/2 oz. (42 grams)
1-3/8 oz. (38 grams)
Winchester’s 3-1/2 inch loads are:
1-5/8 oz (46 grams)
1-3/8 oz. (38 grams)
1-1/4 oz. (36 grams)
Remington’s 3-1/2 inch HyperSonic Steel Load is:
1-3/8 oz. (38 grams)

None of these 3-1/2 inch “89 mm Super Magnum” shells are heavier than the heaviest 3 inch (76 mm Magnum) 1-3/4 oz. (50 grams) lead load.
I understand that a 1-3/8 oz. (38 grams) lead load have higher recoil than a 1-1/8 oz. (32 grams) lead load (the most common field load for partridges, woodcocks and quails). Basically, heavier load needs more gun powder than a lighter load does. And it causes a more recoil. Interestingly these 1-3/8 oz. (38 grams) and 1-1/8 oz. (32 grams) loads both have the 2-3/4 inch (70 mm) cartridge case.
So why do we need extra longer cartridge case although the weight of shots are the same?!
Where is the secret of increased recoil on 3-1/2 inch load even though they are lighter than the heaviest 3 inch magnum load?
So, where does this “brutal recoil” come from?
Because of the Lead shot versus Steel shot differences?
The type of gun powder differences?
The amount of gun powder differences?
The increased pressure of the cartridge that needed to open the longer case (crimp) when gun is fired or something?
If we shot a 1-3/8 oz. (38 grams) shell why do we need extra longer cartridge case?
Why the same amount of load can cause more recoil in longer 3-1/2 inch cartridge case?


If you are trying to compare lead to steel loadings then to help you understand why,you must compare a 12ga 3.5"steel payload of 13/8oz to a 3"lead load of 17/8oz .To understand further you will now see why the 3.5" 12ga was created,to fire the optimum lead payload equivalent of 17/8oz that the 3" could/can handle,simply because of the volumetric difference between lead and steel as steel is lighter and takes up more room in the shell and why they extended the chamber another 1/2"to make it fit in-always compare back to lead to get a true idea of the differences between the two and the chamber lengths required to get the best loadings.Steel loads often work at higher breach pressures than lead to obtain pellet lethality-but not always.
If you then read BT justices reply you can now see how much the 12ga 3.5"chamber length has been abused by manufactures overloading it.,especialy with lead loads trying fire to 10ga magnum loads and in steel load lead equivalents such as the blackcloud 12ga 3.5" 11/2oz steel =21/8oz of lead ,(21/8oz lead being a 10ga mag load).
I used lead on wildfowl from a 12ga 3.5" gun before steel became compulsory and tried every single available factory shell going at the time, from Remington 21/4oz to Clever Mirage 23/8oz(-not a misprint-23/8oz.. :hammer: ) and very quickly decided that i should buy another 10ga very soon :wink:
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Re: Is a 3-1/2-Inch 12-Gauge More Effective?

Postby UmatillaJeff » Tue Mar 04, 2014 8:18 pm

The answer is that a 3 1/2 inch 12ga is ore effective then a standard 12ga.

It is not as effective as a 10ga magnum. Anybody who thinks they are has never pattern tested them.

I always find it interesting when people talk about this issue. So many guys want to seem like they are serious about water fowling but are either unable or unwilling to either reload or pay the cost associated with owning the king of the hill , the 10ga magnum.

Then they want to try and tell you the gun is not needed or the 3 1/2 inch 12ga is just as good.

Too each his own. I take my duck and goose hunting far to seriously to quibble about a few dollars buying ammo or a gun.

I
On the other hand you have guys who own lots of shotguns with 10ga guns among them and to a man they all say that 10ga is more effective, easier to shoot with less recoil in the autoloaders then the 3 1/2 inch 12ga guns.
If steel 2's are so wonderful why did they come out with Bismuth, hevi shot, tungsten, and TSS ? Why do people pay 2 to 5 dollars a shot when all you need is steel 2's? Hmmm......
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Re: Is a 3-1/2-Inch 12-Gauge More Effective?

Postby Sammyshonker » Tue Mar 04, 2014 8:58 pm

UmatillaJeff wrote:Yea..... And if my Aunt had balls she would be my Uncle.
I know you are just quoting the laws of physics but lets be realistic!



Best quote Iv'e seen here yet!! Way to keep it real Jeff :thumbsup:
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Re: Is a 3-1/2-Inch 12-Gauge More Effective?

Postby Cujo1 » Tue Mar 04, 2014 9:02 pm

lostknife4 wrote:
Theduckguru wrote:
3200 man wrote:Not more effective than a 10 ga with the same payload and the recoil is less in the 10 ga :thumbsup:

A 12 ga is better suited with 3 " shells and smaller shot sizes than a 10 ga , Though !


If you take a 10 ga and 12 ga load with the same payload and velocity, and shoot them in guns with the same weight and action, you wont be able to tell the difference in recoil.


If you were using the early 12 ga 3-1/2" BPS that is built on a 10 ga and a 10 ga BPS and shoot the same payload at the same velocity I would put money on the fact that you wouldn't be able to tell the difference in recoil. The guns weigh the same or very near the same. Recoil is a direct function of the shot and powder mass and with velocity being equal vs the weight of the gun and it's rearward directed recoil velocity.
Since both sides of the equation are equal then it follows that the recoil is equal.
Lost

I have both. The 12 has more recoil "to me" although not unmanageable. Now the 3 1/2 12 turkey loads in the BPS will rock you, but what is the fun of shooting a gun that doesn't bring the blood out of your ears!
All turkeys must die!


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Re: Is a 3-1/2-Inch 12-Gauge More Effective?

Postby UmatillaJeff » Tue Mar 04, 2014 10:17 pm

goosepit2007 wrote:for those that shoot over bored 12 gauges like 835/935. those 12 gauges in 31/2 inch match the ten gauge perty darn close for patterns ect. i have shot the over bores for years. i agree with the reglar bore and skinny bore the ten gauge is better then those shotguns with bigger payloads and bigger shot. but the backbored get close too the performance and then the over bores match the 10 gauges. i have been shooting over bored custom made shotgun since the first steel loads have been mandated.
the big thing with the over bores you can shoot bbb's and or t's in 3 inch load and get you way out there further then a guy should be shooting at the ducks and or geese. then guy goes to 31/2 11/2 t's they match the 10 gauge perty close. once guy get to t shot you really do not need the speed to be up there at all. 1450 fps is plenty for t's in 12 or 10 gauge.


just sayin

goose


I have loads that i can take with me that are 60 plus yard loads in my over bored 12 gauges and or i can bring the 10 gauge browning , i am set either way.



This is how I know the man has done his homework. Your results are exactly the same as ours.

The 300 dollar 3 1/2 inch 12ga 835 ultimag out patterns the 1300 Beretta and benelli autos by a long shot because they have 10ga barrel and 12ga chambers.

The 10ga barreled 12ga guns CROWD 10ga performance. They crowd it HARD as well you know... They do not match the performance and the high dollar guns don't even come close.



The funny thing is that 99 shooters out of 100 that shoot a high dollar 12ga autoloader don't even know the gun doesn't pattern as good as a 300 dollar mossburg pump.

A guy would be better off buying a mossburg pump with a recoil system to handle the kick and get nearly 10ga performance with a 12ga gun.
If steel 2's are so wonderful why did they come out with Bismuth, hevi shot, tungsten, and TSS ? Why do people pay 2 to 5 dollars a shot when all you need is steel 2's? Hmmm......
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Re: Is a 3-1/2-Inch 12-Gauge More Effective?

Postby BT Justice » Wed Mar 05, 2014 5:17 am

OK so now are we speaking about the 3 1/2" 12 ga load itself or over bore guns????

I think I have stated this before, but I'll give it another go round for the overbore crowd.
So we all admit that the overbores pattern better, a few points to be made, why if the 12 ga is the be all and end all do they need a 12 ga with a bore that is almost the same as a 10 ga?? The 12 ga is the ultimate shotgun it can do it all according to all the hype, why not just leave it alone why change the bore on something so perfect? Because it's not that's why !!

The factories aren't stupid, they knew that the 12 couldn't pattern large steel in it's standard bore form like the 10 ga could, so make the bores bigger and in the process the larger bores reduced overall pressures in the barrels so they could keep them lighter...stroke of genius.
The funny part about it is this is just how stupid and gullible the American public is, instead of improving on the 10 ga, the factories went the cheaper route with the 12 ga and made the super gun, something you could use light dove loads with in the morning and shoot Giant Canada's with in the evening and it will be cheaper to shoot because all you need is one gun to cover all of your needs.
Along the way the factories have had to retool to make overbores, develop new loads with new components and have had quite a few flop guns that never rose up to super gun standards or would work correctly with light and heavy loads.
Best part about it all is they have passed the cost of all this on to us, the shooting public. In the short time that the 3 1/2" 12 ga has been on the scene, the price of a good autoloader or most shotguns for that matter has doubled, I don't think the trade off has been worth it. We probably would be shooting much more affordable guns if they had just left well enough alone, the price of being Super I suppose.......... :lol3:
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Re: Is a 3-1/2-Inch 12-Gauge More Effective?

Postby z51 » Wed Mar 05, 2014 6:29 am

While on another thread they are discussing how a 20 gauge with 7/8 ounces of #2 is great for geese.

If you really know how to hunt waterfowl you need a 10 gauge like you need another hole in your head. ( All the guys in tin foil hats and conspiracy theories included).

However, I will always defend your right to do so.
Last edited by z51 on Wed Mar 05, 2014 6:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Is a 3-1/2-Inch 12-Gauge More Effective?

Postby slowshooter » Wed Mar 05, 2014 6:48 am

z51 wrote:While on another thread they are discussing how a 20 gauge with 7/8 ounces of #2 is great for geese.

If you know how to hunt waterfowl you need a 10 gauge like you need another hole in your head. ( All the guys in tin foil hats and conspiracy theories included).


I agree. Admittedly I would like to have a 10 gauge but for heavens sakes I can't use it on public refuges in California. Still the fun factor would be high.

So, I'm stuck using 12s & 20.

Obviously my strap count has been absolutely crippled by the fact that I can't shoot bigger bores. No really. :lol3:
All this for a bowl of borscht.
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Re: Is a 3-1/2-Inch 12-Gauge More Effective?

Postby BT Justice » Wed Mar 05, 2014 7:36 am

z51 wrote:While on another thread they are discussing how a 20 gauge with 7/8 ounces of #2 is great for geese.

If you really know how to hunt waterfowl you need a 10 gauge like you need another hole in your head. ( All the guys in tin foil hats and conspiracy theories included).

However, I will always defend your right to do so.

But a 12 ga that's been redesigned and repurposed to emulate a 10 ga is Ok right????

This is what I love about America...confusion... :lol3:
But thank you for defending my rights as I would yours.
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Re: Is a 3-1/2-Inch 12-Gauge More Effective?

Postby 3200 man » Wed Mar 05, 2014 7:37 am

I never thought a need for a 10 ga was needed to hunt Waterfowl but , I always wanted to own one . The 12 ga ammo I reload
was so much better than factory killing Ducks I had to try the 10 ga . After shooting some factory 10 ga loads I could see they
were OK but , not what I expected , velocity wasn't there and I wasn't impressed with the patterns , as I started reloading
with help from Fellas on this forum with recipes in the manuals , the lights came on with some really good loads and I Thank
them . I do know ( for me ) the 10 is only a long-range gun and the 12 ga is capable of taking most all Waterfowl inside 50 yds
with steel shot with 2 3/4" and 3" shells .
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Re: Is a 3-1/2-Inch 12-Gauge More Effective?

Postby lostknife4 » Wed Mar 05, 2014 9:45 am

Image

Image

2-7/8" 10 ga...... The BPS is a very versatile shotgun and mine will cycle any length / power combination hull I put in it, that is if my left arm moves the forestock back and forth LOL.
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Re: Is a 3-1/2-Inch 12-Gauge More Effective?

Postby solway gunner » Wed Mar 05, 2014 2:01 pm

[quote="z51"

If you really know how to hunt waterfowl you need a 10 gauge like you need another hole in your head. ( All the guys in tin foil hats and conspiracy theories included).
[/quote]


Another sweeping statement full of nonsense and simply your own misguided opinion, based on your hunting experience over your hunting ground giving your own preconception of how everyone else should hunt /shoot waterfowl just because you say so.
Equates to stating anything larger than a .410 is unnecessary whilst hunting waterfowl.
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Re: Is a 3-1/2-Inch 12-Gauge More Effective?

Postby lostknife4 » Wed Mar 05, 2014 6:23 pm

Ya gotta love that Scotsman when he's riled up, LOL
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Re: Is a 3-1/2-Inch 12-Gauge More Effective?

Postby Yuchi1 » Wed Mar 05, 2014 9:00 pm

lostknife4 wrote:Ya gotta love that Scotsman when he's riled up, LOL
Lost


And, he's 100% spot-on correct!
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Re: Is a 3-1/2-Inch 12-Gauge More Effective?

Postby z51 » Wed Mar 05, 2014 9:29 pm

solway gunner wrote:[quote="z51"

If you really know how to hunt waterfowl you need a 10 gauge like you need another hole in your head. ( All the guys in tin foil hats and conspiracy theories included).



Another sweeping statement full of nonsense and simply your own misguided opinion, based on your hunting experience over your hunting ground giving your own preconception of how everyone else should hunt /shoot waterfowl just because you say so.
Equates to stating anything larger than a .410 is unnecessary whilst hunting waterfowl.[/quote]


Your statement about the .410 is, of course, asinine.
The only people I see using 10 gauges around here are out of state skybusters in public hunting grounds. And that's the Gods truth.
If you know how to find where the birds are using, set up correctly, and can call, a 10 gauge is totally unnecessary.

But like I said in a previous post I will defend your right to use one.
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Re: Is a 3-1/2-Inch 12-Gauge More Effective?

Postby Bug Doc » Thu Mar 06, 2014 7:05 am

z51 wrote:
The only people I see using 10 gauges around here are out of state skybusters in public hunting grounds. And that's the Gods truth.
If you know how to find where the birds are using, set up correctly, and can call, a 10 gauge is totally unnecessary.


If one is blessed to live in a state with an overabundance of birds and plenty of options for hunting locations, then this might be true. However, others of us are more limited in our choices. I was on a recent hunt where the local geese were all feeding in fields that were either leased or off-limits to hunting. We tried to "run traffic", but the wary late-season birds were not responding. We noted, however, that the birds were flying low over a particular treeline, so we repositioned for a pass shoot. With ranges between 40-60 yards I was glad I had TSS along, but if I had been shooting steel I would have welcomed a big 10 gauge.

Don't be so quick to judge others until you've walked a mile in their shoes.
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