Why ejecta can spin

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Why ejecta can spin

Postby Jon Bergren » Thu Mar 06, 2014 10:47 am

The reason ejecta can spin is that the Moment of Inertia of the ejecta is "off center". This can be caused be eccentric shotcups, a large pellet getting into the shot or the shot not uniform all causing the un balance. RSI's non uniform shotcups would definetely cause the spin. I found only two choke tubes showing spin burnish marks which means it is nothing to worry about. As soon as the unbalanced ejecta leaves the barrel the shotcup opens. If the shotcup did not open up the ejecta would tumble. Ned S the young 85 yr old.
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Re: Why ejecta can spin

Postby baltz526 » Thu Mar 06, 2014 11:05 am

Yes, My understanding is spin can happen, through random effect. Offset wad, out of balance load, like having all the buffer settle to one side, powder escape from seal, bad crimps. Random events with multiple causes to impart a slight rotation. I doubt it very rarely gets to a high RPM. one turn in 6' to 10' is probably more likely than 6000rpm
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Re: Why ejecta can spin

Postby Jon Bergren » Thu Mar 06, 2014 11:15 am

A choke tube .705" dia that has a 2 3/4" burnish mark turning 1/32" with ejecta going 1700 fps at the choke will turn 6708 RPM as calculated. Your value is pure guess. Calculate it. Ned S
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Re: Why ejecta can spin

Postby baltz526 » Thu Mar 06, 2014 11:51 am

No need. Because your example is not repeatable. Random means: yes spin can happen. But that spin "might" be any RPM. 6-RPM or 6000-RPM, completely random do to the cause of the spin being a random event. Now if you built the spin into the wad, with grooves, you might be able to calculate a average spin rate RPM. Do to the random cause the RPM will always be a random spin rate.
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Re: Why ejecta can spin

Postby Bug Doc » Thu Mar 06, 2014 1:28 pm

Although some spin might be possible, I doubt it is a common or significant issue. Here are several videos, all showing essentially zero spin with the wads as they open up:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=URFI-FUGD1g#t=12

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xmlkDsVcRoc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zqkk9HrgS_U

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=It1VeJg4D9U

In addition, during testing of TSS, there were some problems with the original load that cause some pellets to 'bounce' out of the shotcup. I had a couple of long scratches in my barrel due to this. The scratches were all perfectly straight down the entire length of the bore.
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Re: Why ejecta can spin

Postby Jon Bergren » Thu Mar 06, 2014 2:55 pm

Bug Doc wrote:Although some spin might be possible, I doubt it is a common or significant issue. Here are several videos, all showing essentially zero spin with the wads as they open up:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=URFI-FUGD1g#t=12

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xmlkDsVcRoc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zqkk9HrgS_U

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=It1VeJg4D9U

In addition, during testing of TSS, there were some problems with the original load that cause some pellets to 'bounce' out of the shotcup. I had a couple of long scratches in my barrel due to this. The scratches were all perfectly straight down the entire length of the bore.


I said not to worry about it as it happended infrequently. You could make it happen by using an eccentric RSI shotcup and placing a steel BB to the outside as far as it would go touching the shotcup on the inside of the widest part. Then firing it to see if you get a turned burnish mark. I have no intention of trying this. Ned S
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Re: Why ejecta can spin

Postby slowshooter » Thu Mar 06, 2014 3:26 pm

Wait, I'm not understanding this.

If there is spin imparted from the wad traveling down the barrel and the shot exits the barrel then centrifugal force might effect the shot resting at the outside of the shot ball?

Would a tight tight choke or wad stripper simply stop the rotation and let the shot fly?

I can understand tumbling shot, or shot that might spin laterally in flight because it's deformed in a way that would force that to happen...

But I'm not understanding how the wall of air in front of a shot ball is going to allow for any spin to continue past the instant that the wad exits the barrel. If air acts as a fluid wouldn't it simple stifle any minor rotation almost instantly?

Inquiring minds want to know.

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Re: Why ejecta can spin

Postby Theduckguru » Thu Mar 06, 2014 4:27 pm

If wads spin while traveling through the barrel, there would be at least microscopic evidence of the rotation on the wad.
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Re: Why ejecta can spin

Postby Jon Bergren » Thu Mar 06, 2014 5:08 pm

Theduckguru wrote:If wads spin while traveling through the barrel, there would be at least microscopic evidence of the rotation on the wad.


Nothing to mark the shotcup. However on my two chokes there was burnish marks from the shot on the chokes showing rotation, same with Yuichis. Ned S
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Re: Why ejecta can spin

Postby slowshooter » Thu Mar 06, 2014 5:37 pm

Hmm. That's interesting - have to wonder if the setback compression and air pressure is driving the wad or petals against the walls of the barrel on one side and spinning the wad - or if one of the pieces of shot is just being rolled under a petal until the body of the wad compressed it against the choke as it passed through. Heck I don't even know if that's possible.

Were the spin marks around the inside of the entire choke?

I need something new to worry about. :lol3:
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Re: Why ejecta can spin

Postby Theduckguru » Thu Mar 06, 2014 5:41 pm

Jon Bergren wrote:
Theduckguru wrote:If wads spin while traveling through the barrel, there would be at least microscopic evidence of the rotation on the wad.


Nothing to mark the shotcup. However on my two chokes there was burnish marks from the shot on the chokes showing rotation, same with Yuichis. Ned S


There is still high friction present from the lateral force on the wad. In addition, there is blow by containing carbon as an abrasive agent. There would be microscopic evidence of any rotation on the wad.
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Re: Why ejecta can spin

Postby lostknife4 » Thu Mar 06, 2014 5:47 pm

Pressure is exerted across the base of the shotcup and can be equated as a single force at the centre of gravity. It the CG is off centre then the resultant moment arm is the distance between the axial centre multiplied by the force applied and this moment is about an axis perpendicular to the radial axis ie the axis in the centre of the barrel throughout the barrel length. the end result is that the shotcup wants to tumble end for end which of course it could do after leaving the barrel but is held in the barrel parallel to the central axis. Although in some cases of over-bored barrels and shotcups that tend to be a bit loose on the over-bored barrels the tumbling tendency may force the shotcup base to the heavier loaded off centre CG thus theoretically at least leave the obturating shotcup skirt squeezed hard up against the barrel wall on one side and a less that adequate pressure on the diametrically opposite side that could maybe permit some gas behind the skirt and start a fluttering skirt situation.
Since there is no component of the applied force acting in a radial direction there is no torque applied to the shotcup and thus no rotation.
Again there is a torque applied because of an eccentric CG but it is perpendicular to the base of the shotcup and it will have the effect of tumbling the shotcup, not rotating it about the central axis.
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Re: Why ejecta can spin

Postby Jon Bergren » Thu Mar 06, 2014 6:00 pm

lostknife4 wrote:Pressure is exerted across the base of the shotcup and can be equated as a single force at the centre of gravity. It the CG is off centre then the resultant moment arm is the distance between the axial centre multiplied by the force applied and this moment is about an axis perpendicular to the radial axis ie the axis in the centre of the barrel throughout the barrel length. the end result is that the shotcup wants to tumble end for end which of course it could do after leaving the barrel but is held in the barrel parallel to the central axis. Although in some cases of over-bored barrels and shotcups that tend to be a bit loose on the over-bored barrels the tumbling tendency may force the shotcup base to the heavier loaded off centre CG thus theoretically at least leave the obturating shotcup skirt squeezed hard up against the barrel wall on one side and a less that adequate pressure on the diametrically opposite side that could maybe permit some gas behind the skirt and start a fluttering skirt situation.
Since there is no component of the applied force acting in a radial direction there is no torque applied to the shotcup and thus no rotation.
Again there is a torque applied because of an eccentric CG but it is perpendicular to the base of the shotcup and it will have the effect of tumbling the shotcup, not rotating it about the central axis.
Lost


completely wrong, the ejecta doesn't want to tumble nor could it if it wanted to. This does not explain what really happens when the Center of the Moment Inertia is off set which can happen. It doesn't explain the burnish marks we saw that showed rotation. You are ignoring facts. Ned S
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Re: Why ejecta can spin

Postby Theduckguru » Fri Mar 07, 2014 9:04 am

Jon Bergren wrote:
lostknife4 wrote:Pressure is exerted across the base of the shotcup and can be equated as a single force at the centre of gravity. It the CG is off centre then the resultant moment arm is the distance between the axial centre multiplied by the force applied and this moment is about an axis perpendicular to the radial axis ie the axis in the centre of the barrel throughout the barrel length. the end result is that the shotcup wants to tumble end for end which of course it could do after leaving the barrel but is held in the barrel parallel to the central axis. Although in some cases of over-bored barrels and shotcups that tend to be a bit loose on the over-bored barrels the tumbling tendency may force the shotcup base to the heavier loaded off centre CG thus theoretically at least leave the obturating shotcup skirt squeezed hard up against the barrel wall on one side and a less that adequate pressure on the diametrically opposite side that could maybe permit some gas behind the skirt and start a fluttering skirt situation.
Since there is no component of the applied force acting in a radial direction there is no torque applied to the shotcup and thus no rotation.
Again there is a torque applied because of an eccentric CG but it is perpendicular to the base of the shotcup and it will have the effect of tumbling the shotcup, not rotating it about the central axis.
Lost


completely wrong, the ejecta doesn't want to tumble nor could it if it wanted to. This does not explain what really happens when the Center of the Moment Inertia is off set which can happen. It doesn't explain the burnish marks we saw that showed rotation. You are ignoring facts. Ned S


Must be Coriolis effect
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Re: Why ejecta can spin

Postby mudpack » Fri Mar 07, 2014 10:23 am

Jon Bergren wrote:The reason ejecta can spin is that the Moment of Inertia of the ejecta is "off center".


Moment of inertia (MI) is the mass property of a rigid body that defines the torque needed for a desired angular acceleration (rotation) about an axis of rotation.
MI defines the amount of torque needed to get your shotcup spinning. It doesn't tell us where that torque comes from.
Sorry, ned, your theory is N/A.

You are claiming that shotcups spin. Shotcups need applied torque to start spinning (Newtons First Law says an object at rest will remain at rest until acted on by an outside force)....where does that applied torque/outside force come from?
The outside force could come from a rifled barrel, but we're talking smoothbores.
So, the answer appears to be: that outside force does not exist.

An experienced reloader you certainly are, but it appears that you were not trained as a Mechanical Engineer. Either that, or time has produced a fuzzy memory, which it does in all of us.
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Re: Why ejecta can spin

Postby Mugzwump » Fri Mar 07, 2014 12:08 pm

mudpack wrote:
Jon Bergren wrote:The reason ejecta can spin is that the Moment of Inertia of the ejecta is "off center".


Moment of inertia (MI) is the mass property of a rigid body that defines the torque needed for a desired angular acceleration (rotation) about an axis of rotation.
MI defines the amount of torque needed to get your shotcup spinning. It doesn't tell us where that torque comes from.
Sorry, ned, your theory is N/A.

You are claiming that shotcups spin. Shotcups need applied torque to start spinning (Newtons First Law says an object at rest will remain at rest until acted on by an outside force)....where does that applied torque/outside force come from?
The outside force could come from a rifled barrel, but we're talking smoothbores.
So, the answer appears to be: that outside force does not exist.

An experienced reloader you certainly are, but it appears that you were not trained as a Mechanical Engineer. Either that, or time has produced a fuzzy memory, which it does in all of us.


I'm with Mudpack here.

Your theory is BS Ned. Sorry I waited this long to explain. The answer is in the engineering of a rifled barrel. The bullet is interference fit with the barrel, the rifling is severe in dimension compared to general tolerances of Int. Ballistics. Why? Because it's friggin' hard to get a bullet to spin.

The expanding gas exerts a force on the bullet, the AIR on the muzzle side of the bullet is compressed and exerts a great force on the opposite side of the bullet. The result is that bullet is compressed, sandwiched between two opposing forces. in other words it's stuck in a vice, and that vice is moving forward as one. Without HUGE rotational forces added into the picture such as rifling or dimension the bullet itself to take a rotational direction from friction or air resistance... nothing will rotate at all. And that is FACT.

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Re: Why ejecta can spin

Postby Jon Bergren » Fri Mar 07, 2014 1:56 pm

What all the "negatives" are ignoring is the fact that Yuichi and I have 3 chokes with burnish marks that show the eject can and does spin. The reason is quite simple that the centerline of the moment of inertia is eccentric. If what you are saying is true then there is no such thing as unbalanced auto tires. Also making sure the Nuke weapon warheads didn't need the MI checked. Ned S
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Re: Why ejecta can spin

Postby Frank Lopez » Fri Mar 07, 2014 3:07 pm

Has anyone noticed that Ned is saying things like, "the ejecta CAN spin" and, "it is nothing to worry about"? (emphasis mine). He isn't saying id DOES spin EVERYTIME, or IT"S A CONCERN, he's saying it's an abnormality. He's also offering an explanation for this abnormality, and you may choose to accept his explanation of not. But, until it's proven scientifically, his opinion is as good as the next guys. In fact, I find it somewhat plausible. The old Neptune Water Meters actually operated quite similarly.

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Re: Why ejecta can spin

Postby lostknife4 » Fri Mar 07, 2014 5:59 pm

Frank Lopez wrote:Has anyone noticed that Ned is saying things like, "the ejecta CAN spin" and, "it is nothing to worry about"? (emphasis mine). He isn't saying id DOES spin EVERYTIME, or IT"S A CONCERN, he's saying it's an abnormality. He's also offering an explanation for this abnormality, and you may choose to accept his explanation of not. But, until it's proven scientifically, his opinion is as good as the next guys. In fact, I find it somewhat plausible. The old Neptune Water Meters actually operated quite similarly.

Frank


Frank if you go back a year or two you will find that Ned had most adamantly stated that wads DO spin and quoting some rules about Moment of Inertia when in fact for rotating objects the correct term is POLAR Moment of Inertia, using radians per second as the term rotation etc. He is clearly out of his element here and has assumed the same tact as before that if you don't agree with him, then there clearly is some deficiency in your understanding this situation and he then goes on to attack your education etc.
All I ever asked was what is the force that is making his shotcup spin about it's longitudinal axis that provides 6000 approximate rpm and he also claims that these particular spinning shotcups provided excellent patterns, but my question was excellent patterns at what range because it is a proven fact that shot and shotcups that are fired thru rifled barrels do not pattern well at all past about 20 feet or so. I proved that fact a long time ago trying to shoot 22 LR shot cartridges with a rifled barrel and patterns changed dramatically when I got a 22 Mossberg smooth bore rifle which I guess was really a shotgun by definition.
It may be "plausible" but it is also extremely highly improbable and it has been proven in numerous videos that shotcups don't spin when they leave the smooth bore muzzle and for some distance after until the petals are effected by wind resistance and open and fold back in random, I'm sure you have witnessed these.
In my humble opinion he does not have a clear understanding of the forces at play and is somewhat short on the comprehension of his 2nd year college courses that he is supposed to have taken and be comprehensively and intimately familiar with.
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Re: Why ejecta can spin

Postby Theduckguru » Fri Mar 07, 2014 6:11 pm

I agree with Lost, Ned's position on wad spin has evolved from does to can.
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Re: Why ejecta can spin

Postby Mugzwump » Fri Mar 07, 2014 6:17 pm

bah... if all he's got is those few chokes from the last century with some sort of wear in them, and a real bogus explanation... That should sum it all up for everyone.

Maybe it happens from time to time but I know it doesn't happen with any consistency. We can't out-rule extreme exceptions but that wasn't the basis of the debate a few days ago. I am getting bored of this though. Maybe I'll join Ned's side just for the fun of it. I'm sure I could come up with a real kicker as to why it happens, though I'm sure I'd have to bend a few laws to do it.. maybe no one will notice? haha... didn't work in school very often.

Car tires? C'mon buddy.... Think about that for a minute before you put it out there. You can do better than that.

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Re: Why ejecta can spin

Postby UmatillaJeff » Fri Mar 07, 2014 6:30 pm

No only is it true.... It's the new cause of all my misses. Jeff
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Re: Why ejecta can spin

Postby mudpack » Fri Mar 07, 2014 6:53 pm

Jon Bergren wrote:What all the "negatives" are ignoring is the fact that Yuichi and I have 3 chokes with burnish marks that show the eject can and does spin. Ned S

ned, ned, ned......we aren't ignoring the angled burnish marks. There is, without a doubt, good reason for those marks that appear to be angled.
The problem lies (for you) in that a spinning shotcup was the explanation you came up with, and it was just a wild guess (although a logical one, to be sure). Unfortunately for you, it isn't the right answer. My personal guess would be a loose tube that would turn several degrees as the payload passed through it. (This is how tubes come loose and unscrew themselves). So, it wasn't the shotcup that spun, but the tube itself.
I know Yuchi said his tube was not loose. Okay, I'll take his word for it. His tube also did not have a burnish mark, but a fairly deep scratch, according to him. (and I remember that it was the full length of the bore, but I very easily be wrong on that part)
My guess is that a piece of reloader's guide fingers might have broken off a small piece of spring steel during the reloading of a shell, the piece became lodged between the shotcup and the hull, and upon firing, the piece...imbedded in the shot cup...created an angular drag (much like a turned boat's rudder going through the water) that actually did cause the shotcup to rotate during its journey down the bore. So, yes, a shotcup can spin....if something makes it spin.

Look at it this way, ned: I have a sack of concrete sitting on my level driveway. It CAN slide into the street, but it won't unless something causes it to: an earthquake that tilts my drive, a tornado that blows 200mph, my wife hitting it with her Oldsmobile, etc.. A shotcup CAN rotate in the bore, but it won't unless some outside force causes it to.... Nothing yet has been put forth that would identify the cause of a spin.... not an earthquake, not a tornado, not even an out-of-balance car tire.
"Outside force". That's the critcal part you cannot provide, ned. Outside force.
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Re: Why ejecta can spin

Postby Yuchi1 » Fri Mar 07, 2014 8:18 pm

Mr. Swygard,

If you don't furnish some type of technical/scientific resource these guys can sink their academic teeth into, you will continue to be their punching bag.
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Re: Why ejecta can spin

Postby Frank Lopez » Fri Mar 07, 2014 8:33 pm

lostknife4 wrote:
Frank Lopez wrote:Has anyone noticed that Ned is saying things like, "the ejecta CAN spin" and, "it is nothing to worry about"? (emphasis mine). He isn't saying id DOES spin EVERYTIME, or IT"S A CONCERN, he's saying it's an abnormality. He's also offering an explanation for this abnormality, and you may choose to accept his explanation of not. But, until it's proven scientifically, his opinion is as good as the next guys. In fact, I find it somewhat plausible. The old Neptune Water Meters actually operated quite similarly.

Frank


Frank if you go back a year or two you will find that Ned had most adamantly stated that wads DO spin and quoting some rules about Moment of Inertia when in fact for rotating objects the correct term is POLAR Moment of Inertia, using radians per second as the term rotation etc. He is clearly out of his element here and has assumed the same tact as before that if you don't agree with him, then there clearly is some deficiency in your understanding this situation and he then goes on to attack your education etc.
All I ever asked was what is the force that is making his shotcup spin about it's longitudinal axis that provides 6000 approximate rpm and he also claims that these particular spinning shotcups provided excellent patterns, but my question was excellent patterns at what range because it is a proven fact that shot and shotcups that are fired thru rifled barrels do not pattern well at all past about 20 feet or so. I proved that fact a long time ago trying to shoot 22 LR shot cartridges with a rifled barrel and patterns changed dramatically when I got a 22 Mossberg smooth bore rifle which I guess was really a shotgun by definition.
It may be "plausible" but it is also extremely highly improbable and it has been proven in numerous videos that shotcups don't spin when they leave the smooth bore muzzle and for some distance after until the petals are effected by wind resistance and open and fold back in random, I'm sure you have witnessed these.
In my humble opinion he does not have a clear understanding of the forces at play and is somewhat short on the comprehension of his 2nd year college courses that he is supposed to have taken and be comprehensively and intimately familiar with.
Lost


The end result is that you are all arguing about something that everyone agrees isn't anything to worry about. :huh: I guess it isn't about who wins, but the race itself! :wink: :lol3:

Frank
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