Why ejecta can spin

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Re: Why ejecta can spin

Postby Mugzwump » Fri Mar 07, 2014 8:42 pm

Ned,

Here's a can of worms from a chat with my Engineer pal at Bombardier Aerospace.

Look into whether or not there are any significant rotational forces created by conservation of motion upon setback. If it so happened that enough pellets smashed into each other the right way it could be that some force is translated into the radial axis. Along these lines, I wouldn't out rule the possibility.

FYI we came up with a ton of reasons why this wouldn't work. Though there is no reason why it couldn't work under the right circumstances... in fact a load could even be designed to create such a rotation in a smooth bore.

Frank,

I don't believe it's about who wins here... it's about the what if he's right? What if that changes your ideas of what loads will pattern better? Even though he says it's nothing to worry about, if that thing is spinning anywhere near the "rpm" he said it was we'd all have a problem hitting ducks... what if we do have a problem hitting ducks!!??! :eek:

Lol..
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Re: Why ejecta can spin

Postby Mugzwump » Fri Mar 07, 2014 8:47 pm

also.. you guys need to stop writing the word "ejecta"... every time I read it I first think about some sticky magazine pages... that sh!t don't spin.

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Re: Why ejecta can spin

Postby Yuchi1 » Fri Mar 07, 2014 10:38 pm

HWl barrels were specifically marketed as having the capacity to arrest "spin" of the shotcup/payload as it traversed down the bore. Can anyone present conclusive evidence (of, proof quality) this constituted false advertising?
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Re: Why ejecta can spin

Postby Frylock » Fri Mar 07, 2014 10:47 pm

The problem is with calling non linear burnishing marks on a choke tube 'proof' or 'fact' of shot cup spin, as has been pointed out other factors could be at play to explain the burnish marks. To be any sort of proof first all other possible causes would need to be eliminated. Until then everything is just speculation.
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Re: Why ejecta can spin

Postby Jon Bergren » Fri Mar 07, 2014 10:52 pm

Frylock wrote:The problem is with calling non linear burnishing marks on a choke tube 'proof' or 'fact' of shot cup spin, as has been pointed out other factors could be at play to explain the burnish marks. To be any sort of proof first all other possible causes would need to be eliminated. Until then everything is just speculation.


Then please explain how the burnish marks got there. You can't nor can anyone else. Ned S
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Why ejecta can spin

Postby Frylock » Fri Mar 07, 2014 11:09 pm

I don't need to explain them, the burden of proof is on you to explain them. If you present us with a theory on how they were created shouldn't we try and come up with alternate explanations? Isn't that how scientific knowledge advances? I frequently find my extended choke tube has come lose from shooting, isn't that an alternate explanation?
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Re: Why ejecta can spin

Postby clampdaddy » Fri Mar 07, 2014 11:58 pm

I have one choke tube (kicks hff) that seems to be imparting a spin on wads. With the factory chokes the wads all head towards the pattern board but when I have that KHFF tube in, the wads immediately exit stage left at about a 45 degree angle and spinning like a ceiling fan on high. Patterns are great though. Weird. :huh: Maybe the spinning doesn't actually start until after the shot has cleared the wad?
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Re: Why ejecta can spin

Postby Mugzwump » Sat Mar 08, 2014 2:06 am

clampdaddy wrote:I have one choke tube (kicks hff) that seems to be imparting a spin on wads. With the factory chokes the wads all head towards the pattern board but when I have that KHFF tube in, the wads immediately exit stage left at about a 45 degree angle and spinning like a ceiling fan on high. Patterns are great though. Weird. :huh: Maybe the spinning doesn't actually start until after the shot has cleared the wad?


Probably the way the choke churns out the wad... could have tendencies to peel on one petal more than any other and thus cause a spinning wad.

If this is to be solved we need to "mythbuster" it. Someone needs prove that wads don't spin in smoothbores and then make a wad spin in a smoothbore.

Collectively, we can either ditch about it all day or make it happen.

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Re: Why ejecta can spin

Postby lostknife4 » Sat Mar 08, 2014 5:17 am

A high speed video of this load exiting the muzzle of this particular shotgun/choke that produced those scuff marks, if it can be duplicated, would certainly answer the spinning question that is unless the choke stopped the spinning @ 6000 rpm, or whatever radians per second, shotcup and shot
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Re: Why ejecta can spin

Postby lostknife4 » Sat Mar 08, 2014 5:28 am

I agree with what Mugz's friend has said and would add the following:
Mugzwump wrote:Ned,

Here's a can of worms from a chat with my Engineer pal at Bombardier Aerospace.

Look into whether or not there are any significant rotational forces created by conservation of motion upon setback. If it so happened that enough pellets smashed into each other the right way, being all forcing it clockwise or all counterclockwise and what about those that half go CW and the other go CCW?, it could be that some force is translated into the radial axis. Along these lines, I wouldn't out rule the possibility.

FYI we came up with a ton of reasons why this wouldn't work. Though there is no reason why it couldn't work under the right circumstances... in fact a load could even be designed to create such a rotation in a smooth bore. That's an interesting hypothesis however it would certainly have to be counter to conventional loading practice and perhaps not using round shot or inconsistent shot mass on different quadrants by using a spreader X or some other means, this is certainly not the case in this instance though I don't think however with some people who knows how or what they load.

Frank,

I don't believe it's about who wins here... it's about the what if he's right? What if that changes your ideas of what loads will pattern better? Even though he says it's nothing to worry about, if that thing is spinning anywhere near the "rpm" he said it was we'd all have a problem hitting ducks... what if we do have a problem hitting ducks!!??! :eek:
An open mind and correctly applied engineering principles is a great thing however doing conventional things in unconventional ways sometimes leads to even greater things.

Lol..
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Re: Why ejecta can spin

Postby Jimmy82 » Sat Mar 08, 2014 8:23 am

Hey Ned,

I'm having trouble with the math. I'm not trying to dispute anything, I'm just curious by nature and I like math. However, I haven't touched a physics book in over a decade. Check me on this, according to the numbers a 1700 fps load with a 1/32 of an inch of spin in a 2-3/4 inch distance came out to 11.25 degrees of spin at 20400 inches per second. 2.215 inch circumference, and 1/32=.0692, so (.0692*360)/2.215=11.25 degrees. Which means it travels forward 2-3/4 inches in .000135 seconds, and spins 11.25 degrees in that same time. 360/11.25=32, 32*.000135=.00432. A full revolution takes .00432 seconds, 60/.00432=13888. So according to that math, the rpm should be around 13888.

This is assuming speed during the last 2-3/4 inch is constant, which I know it's not, but I figure the acceleration would be close to negligible in .000135 seconds. Also, extremely long decimals have been rounded.
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Re: Why ejecta can spin

Postby slowshooter » Sat Mar 08, 2014 9:12 am

Mugzwump wrote:also.. you guys need to stop writing the word "ejecta"... every time I read it I first think about some sticky magazine pages... that sh!t don't spin.

Mugz.


You amateur. :lol3:
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Re: Why ejecta can spin

Postby lostknife4 » Sat Mar 08, 2014 2:59 pm

Jon Bergren wrote:
Frylock wrote:The problem is with calling non linear burnishing marks on a choke tube 'proof' or 'fact' of shot cup spin, as has been pointed out other factors could be at play to explain the burnish marks. To be any sort of proof first all other possible causes would need to be eliminated. Until then everything is just speculation.


Then please explain how the burnish marks got there. You can't nor can anyone else. Ned S


I already furnished an alternate cause several times, just read back and you will find them.
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Re: Why ejecta can spin

Postby lostknife4 » Sat Mar 08, 2014 3:00 pm

slowshooter wrote:
Mugzwump wrote:also.. you guys need to stop writing the word "ejecta"... every time I read it I first think about some sticky magazine pages... that sh!t don't spin.

Mugz.


You amateur. :lol3:


Amateur or not I agree with Mugz
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Re: Why ejecta can spin

Postby lostknife4 » Sun Mar 09, 2014 8:11 am

I've jacked up a wheel that was out of balance, to remove it and put the wheel on the balance machine, but before I removed it I tried pushing perpendicular to the tire all the way around the rim but it didn't rotate or spin. Even though it was out of balance it still didn't rotate! Even when I pushed really hard it didn't rotate. Even though it was mounted on a spindle with roller bearings with very little rolling/spinning resisting friction, it still didn't rotate. Now when I tried to rotate it by applying a force perpendicular to the spindle central axis , ie pushing on the tread tangent to the tire in a normal rotating direction,it would rotate/spin very easily. If an object flying through the air is spinning and the Centre of Gravity is off centre from the central axis but rotating about the central axis then the flight path will tend to be a spiral, if it isn't spinning then it's flight path is akin to a conventional twin engine aircraft flying with one engine shut down that will fly in a big arc unless considerable counter tail rudder authority is applied to keep a straight path. However a wad column moving through a barrel is not External Ballistics it's Internal Ballistics. Externally unlike a Rocket it is not self propelled by concentric or eccentric forces which may or may not require controls to prevent erratic flight External Ballistics or flight path control to counter such things as Yaw and Roll and Rotation and Coriolis.
Shotshell wad columns ie shotcups with shot do not spin in a smooth bore barrel. Ned says different and since the onus is always on the originator of the hypothesis to prove it by more than a few rub marks on a choke, I do not doubt the fact that he has some marks on his choke I do doubt his conclusions as to what caused them, that could and probably were caused by something other than a spinning wad column, I'm still waiting, and I know a lot of others are too, for some real factual scientific and visual proof of his hypothesis.
It's these types of all encompassing statements, that are just here-say, that are accepted by people less knowledgeable about the subject and sometimes accepted as gospel because of someone's unproven hypothesis or interpretation rather than proven facts that somewhere along the time line could cause some serious problems.
As Yuchi, who admits to being a neophyte about Engineering analysis who saw the marks and maybe they looked like screw threads to him as well so assumed that's what they were and were caused by a spinning wad, wrote:
by Yuchi1 » Fri Mar 07, 2014 10:18 pm
Mr. Swygard,
If you don't furnish some type of technical/scientific resource these guys can sink their academic teeth into, you will continue to be their punching bag.[quote="Yuchi1"] by Yuchi1 » Fri Mar 07, 2014 10:18 pm


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Re: Why ejecta can spin

Postby lostknife4 » Mon Mar 10, 2014 7:24 am

Jimmy82 wrote:Hey Ned,

I'm having trouble with the math. I'm not trying to dispute anything, I'm just curious by nature and I like math. However, I haven't touched a physics book in over a decade. Check me on this, according to the numbers a 1700 fps load with a 1/32 of an inch of spin in a 2-3/4 inch distance came out to 11.25 degrees of spin at 20400 inches per second. 2.215 inch circumference, and 1/32=.0692, so (.0692*360)/2.215=11.25 degrees. Which means it travels forward 2-3/4 inches in .000135 seconds, and spins 11.25 degrees in that same time. 360/11.25=32, 32*.000135=.00432. A full revolution takes .00432 seconds, 60/.00432=13888. So according to that math, the rpm should be around 13888.

This is assuming speed during the last 2-3/4 inch is constant, which I know it's not, but I figure the acceleration would be close to negligible in .000135 seconds. Also, extremely long decimals have been rounded.


I like math too but 1/32" = Ø.03125"
I didn't check the rest of your calculations I stopped at that 1/32" ......
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Re: Why ejecta can spin

Postby mudpack » Mon Mar 10, 2014 11:44 am

Jimmy82 wrote:....1/32=.0692,....

lostknife4 wrote: 1/32" = Ø.03125"...Lost


Nice catch, Lost. :thumbsup:
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Re: Why ejecta can spin

Postby Jimmy82 » Mon Mar 10, 2014 12:26 pm

Ah yes, I see where I screwed up. Went about that part of the problem all backwards and lead to screwing up some formulas. Could have simplified it and just stayed away from degrees. 2.215/.03125=70.9, so 70.9*.000135=.0096, and finally 60/.0096=6250. So 6250 rpm which is much closer to what Ned said. Thanks guys.
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Re: Why ejecta can spin

Postby lostknife4 » Mon Mar 10, 2014 12:52 pm

No perspiration Jimmy we all need proof readers and some people really need proof readers........... LOL
The twist ratio of Hastings rifled barrels is 1:34 , FYI
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Re: Why ejecta can spin

Postby Jimmy82 » Mon Mar 10, 2014 1:32 pm

Yeah, I browse a traditional muzzle loading forum on occasion and I remember a guy doing an experiment trying to shoot shot out of a rifled bore. We're talking round ball rifling which the fastest twist you'll see is 1:48, and sometimes up to 1:66 or 1:70, and even those rifling rates were causing shot to spread dramatically. They weren't useable on game birds outside of 10 feet.
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Re: Why ejecta can spin

Postby lostknife4 » Mon Mar 10, 2014 3:56 pm

Yuchi1 wrote:HWl barrels were specifically marketed as having the capacity to arrest "spin" of the shotcup/payload as it traversed down the bore. Can anyone present conclusive evidence (of, proof quality) this constituted false advertising?


I can't and neither will Hastings prove that it does and who keep dodging my questions to provide proof that shotcups rotate and the Wadlock stops this rotation. So until an answer is received then there will be no lawsuit.
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Re: Why ejecta can spin

Postby mudpack » Mon Mar 10, 2014 8:07 pm

Hastings invented a barrel that will prevent wad spin.
I've invented a small black box that produces a force field that will prevent the planet Kolar from falling on your house....$19.95 plus shipping and handling.

There must be a need for both products because someone makes them....and no one would make a product if there wasn't a need for it, now would they?
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Re: Why ejecta can spin

Postby lostknife4 » Tue Mar 11, 2014 5:22 am

mudpack wrote:Hastings invented a barrel that will stop wad spin.
I've invented a small black box that produces a force field that will keep the planet Kolar from falling on your house....$19.95 plus shipping and handling.

There must be a need for both products because someone makes them....and no one would make a product if there wasn't a need for it, now would they?

A need or someone gullible to go for it, it's truly a Marketers world out there..
However the Wadlock does a fine job of keeping patterns together but that may be because of it's robustness combined with their superior choke tubes.
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Re: Why ejecta can spin

Postby BT Justice » Tue Mar 11, 2014 5:52 am

I'm not getting in the middle of if there is spin or not.
My question is if the Wadlock system makes that significant a difference why hasn't any major (or minor) shotgun manufacture made guns with this type of barrel. Yes it would require retooling but if it was that much of an improvement wouldn't it be marketable?
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Re: Why ejecta can spin

Postby 10gaOkie » Tue Mar 11, 2014 6:30 am

I have one Hastings barrel that is the same weight and takes the same chokes as my HWL barrels. Only it does not have the grooves in it. When pattern testing various loads with it, it quickly becomes obvious that it is not in the same league with my grooved barrels. My patterns are always much better with the grooved barrels and easier to obtain. Wheather it spins or not, the groove do have a positive effect.

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