Why ejecta can spin

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Re: Why ejecta can spin

Postby lostknife4 » Tue Mar 11, 2014 6:47 am

BT Justice wrote:I'm not getting in the middle of if there is spin or not.My question is if the Wadlock system makes that significant a difference why hasn't any major (or minor) shotgun manufacture made guns with this type of barrel. Yes it would require retooling but if it was that much of an improvement wouldn't it be marketable?


BT
As I see it if they made a smooth bore barrel they couldn't compete with the shotgun manufacturers price wise, but since they put a "spin" on their Paradox barrels and for a specific reason, to stabilize slugs, then they can charge pretty well what the market will pay. But to get some of the replacement "smooth" bore barrel business they make the claim, and even after numerous emails from me asking for proof of the Wadlock stopping any spin and not one word back on that subject, that their Wadlock's "stop shotcups from spinning" I admit that my Wadlock does pattern well but again I attribute that to it's having a much heavier wall thickness and very well designed choke tubes. Some owners have stated on here that the Wadlock choke tubes pattern better than any replacement chokes with the possible exception of the Terror tubes.
So it comes down to economics doesn't it, it would take extra machining and QA etc. to build these straight broached barrels and unless all the shotgun mfgs got on line the additional cost then would not be a sales cost factor because everyone would do it, ain't gonna happen LOL!! The benefit doesn't outweigh the cost unless of course shotcups were spinning Internally in smooth bore barrels at 6000 rpm's !!!!
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Re: Why ejecta can spin

Postby 3200 man » Tue Mar 11, 2014 7:11 am

I agree with Bill ! :clapping:

If one thinks his wads are spinning and he needs groves in his barrel to stop it from spinning , all he would have to do is
cut a 1/2" off his wads and in no-time he will have all the groves he wants , with steel shot ? :fingerhead:

Hopefully ! the timer clock is just about to ring on this subject ? :lol3: :lol3: :lol3:
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Re: Why ejecta can spin

Postby lostknife4 » Tue Mar 11, 2014 8:03 am

10gaOkie wrote:I have one Hastings barrel that is the same weight and takes the same chokes as my HWL barrels. Only it does not have the grooves in it. When pattern testing various loads with it, it quickly becomes obvious that it is not in the same league with my grooved barrels. My patterns are always much better with the grooved barrels and easier to obtain. Wheather it spins or not, the groove do have a positive effect.

Chris

Chris this is very interesting. Does the Hastings smooth barrel pattern better than the original manufacturers barrel?
I checked the Verny Carron website and couldn't find any replacement smooth bore barrels listed so like the Wadlock BPS barrels they must have just stopped making them. To expensive perhaps!
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Re: Why ejecta can spin

Postby Yuchi1 » Tue Mar 11, 2014 12:02 pm

lostknife4 wrote:
10gaOkie wrote:I have one Hastings barrel that is the same weight and takes the same chokes as my HWL barrels. Only it does not have the grooves in it. When pattern testing various loads with it, it quickly becomes obvious that it is not in the same league with my grooved barrels. My patterns are always much better with the grooved barrels and easier to obtain. Wheather it spins or not, the groove do have a positive effect.

Chris

Chris this is very interesting. Does the Hastings smooth barrel pattern better than the original manufacturers barrel?
I checked the Verny Carron website and couldn't find any replacement smooth bore barrels listed so like the Wadlock BPS barrels they must have just stopped making them. To expensive perhaps!
Lost


B,

I have a couple of Hastings shotgun barrels that are not of the wadlock configuration. They were purchased in the late 1980's and are smooth bore, lacking the broached grooves of the HWL barrels. Like Chris, I have found they do not approach the pattern quality of the HWL barrels, more on a par of factory Remington/Browning barrels. Apparently, the HWl barrel superseded these in production, sometime around 1990.
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Re: Why ejecta can spin

Postby lostknife4 » Tue Mar 11, 2014 1:15 pm

Yuchi1 wrote:
lostknife4 wrote:
10gaOkie wrote:I have one Hastings barrel that is the same weight and takes the same chokes as my HWL barrels. Only it does not have the grooves in it. When pattern testing various loads with it, it quickly becomes obvious that it is not in the same league with my grooved barrels. My patterns are always much better with the grooved barrels and easier to obtain. Wheather it spins or not, the groove do have a positive effect.

Chris

Chris this is very interesting. Does the Hastings smooth barrel pattern better than the original manufacturers barrel?
I checked the Verny Carron website and couldn't find any replacement smooth bore barrels listed so like the Wadlock BPS barrels they must have just stopped making them. To expensive perhaps!
Lost


B,

I have a couple of Hastings shotgun barrels that are not of the wadlock configuration. They were purchased in the late 1980's and are smooth bore, lacking the broached grooves of the HWL barrels. Like Chris, I have found they do not approach the pattern quality of the HWL barrels, more on a par of factory Remington/Browning barrels. Apparently, the HWl barrel superseded these in production, sometime around 1990.


Yuchi that would co-inside with the most recent Hastings email:

"Hello:

There are no videos on our wad lock barrels. They were tested about 25 years ago.

Regards,
Liane
Hastings Distribution, LLC
www.HastingsDistribution.com
717-524-5301
717-638-8397 (Fax)
"

As you can see they are very hard to get any information from, one would think that if these barrels are doing what they say they do then they would want to let the world know but they don't!
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Re: Why ejecta can spin

Postby Frank Lopez » Tue Mar 11, 2014 1:48 pm

It would seem to me that if there were any truth to spinning wads being a problem, or if wad stabilization with straight grooves were the cause of the superior patterns, choke tube manufacturers from Briley to Hastings themselves would be making and heavily marketing choke tubes with "straight rifling"!

Frank
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Re: Why ejecta can spin

Postby lostknife4 » Tue Mar 11, 2014 4:25 pm

Frank Lopez wrote:It would seem to me that if there were any truth to spinning wads being a problem, or if wad stabilization with straight grooves were the cause of the superior patterns, choke tube manufacturers from Briley to Hastings themselves would be making and heavily marketing choke tubes with "straight rifling"!

Frank

A very astute observation and conclusion Frank.
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Re: Why ejecta can spin

Postby mudpack » Tue Mar 11, 2014 4:45 pm

I know Briley makes several spirally-rifled tubes. They claim they "impart spin"= on the shot charge", for better patterns.

Interesting,eh?
Hastings puts straight rifling in a shotgun's barrel to prevent spin and give better patterns.
Briley put spiral rifling in a shotgun's barrel to impart spin and give better patterns.

Oh, the wonderful world of marketing.
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Re: Why ejecta can spin

Postby lostknife4 » Tue Mar 11, 2014 5:00 pm

mudpack wrote:I know Briley makes several spirally-rifled tubes. They claim they "impart spin"= on the shot charge", for better patterns.

Interesting,eh?
Hastings puts straight rifling in a shotgun's barrel to prevent spin and give better patterns.
Briley put spiral rifling in a shotgun's barrel to impart spin and give better patterns.

Oh, the wonderful world of marketing.


Actually the spiral tubes are to open the patterns for close range shooting. IMHO part of the reason for the Wadlock's heavy centre density pattern could be because of a longer tapered forcing cone.
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Re: Why ejecta can spin

Postby 10gaOkie » Tue Mar 11, 2014 7:04 pm

Lost
Answering your question about my smooth bore Hastings barrel, it shows no sign of improvement over a standard factory barrel. Even though it is of heavy construction just like the WL barrels. It is marked the same as a WL barrel as well and uses the same chokes. The only way to tell if I barrel is WL or not is look down the barrel. I believe Hastings made a lot of these smooth bore barrels. Mine does show signs of improvement with a extended choke the same as a factory barrel would. My WL barrels do not show this same improvement with an extended choke. As for straight grooved chokes, I would think this would do more to upset the shot column than be of a benefit to pattern improvement. The HW barrels groove benefit by not upsetting the shot column running the full barrel length.
I truly believe the straight grooves, eleminate spinning of the wad, however, I have no proof, nor do I know why the wad would tend to spin with a smoothbore barrrel. I just know from seeing how the WL barrels perform compared to smooth bore barrels. I have not tried to figure all of this out but just enjoy using the WL barrels and their performance. So this puts us back to where we started.

Chris
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Re: Why ejecta can spin

Postby dog walker » Tue Mar 11, 2014 8:01 pm

mudpack wrote:I know Briley makes several spirally-rifled tubes. They claim they "impart spin"= on the shot charge", for better patterns.

Interesting,eh?
Hastings puts straight rifling in a shotgun's barrel to prevent spin and give better patterns.
Briley put spiral rifling in a shotgun's barrel to impart spin and give better patterns.

Oh, the wonderful world of marketing.


The briley tubes that have "spirally rifling" are their spreader chokes,like the timber and teal choke.
They have a choke that is the EXR choke which is an IM with "straight rifling" and ports. I have that choke and their IM for an xtrema 2 that I own. The EXR does throw better patterns with higher percentages than the IM with that gun. Based on those results I bought an EXR for my old benelli,patterns like crap. Go figure :huh:


As far as ejecta spin who gives a good hearty rats azz :hi:
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Re: Why ejecta can spin

Postby MK10 » Tue Mar 11, 2014 8:45 pm

Jon Bergren wrote:What all the "negatives" are ignoring is the fact that Yuichi and I have 3 chokes with burnish marks that show the eject can and does spin. The reason is quite simple that the centerline of the moment of inertia is eccentric. If what you are saying is true then there is no such thing as unbalanced auto tires. Also making sure the Nuke weapon warheads didn't need the MI checked. Ned S


Firstly, I'm not sure how you get actual "burnish marks" from a plastic wad. Given your engineering background and the fact that you use that specific term, tells me that something abrasive has been added to either the manufacturing/polishing process of those chokes or that you and Yuchi have been using abrasive materials to clean those chokes.

Secondly, and as per a previous post you put up, the shot cup centreline can be offset (parallel) with centreline of the rest of the wad or it can be at an angle………it can't be both. How you or anyone else can determine either scenario without high tech equipment is not clear to me. How did you measure this centreline offset or misalignment?

If you are suggesting that the shot-cup/petal wall thickness varies in those particular wads, then this is something different yet again.

In my opinion, the only way you can introduce revolution of the wad is by introducing a mechanical feature into the barrel or choke design.

Finally, I go through approximately 10,000 target loads per annum, another 1,500 waterfowl loads and about 750 upland game loads. In the many, many years I've been doing this, and like countless other shotgunners, I only see one notable thing when cleaning my barrels and/or chokes……………..straight/longitudinal plastic streak marks.

Given the centuries of shotgunning and the lessons learnt, and the fact that no one other than you or Yuchi have recorded such a finding tells me that it is an "extremely" rare event.
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Re: Why ejecta can spin

Postby Jon Bergren » Tue Mar 11, 2014 9:46 pm

The steel shot was going thru the shotcup. Also I can make the ejecta spin anytimer I want to. It is really nothing to wory about. Ned S
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Re: Why ejecta can spin

Postby Yuchi1 » Tue Mar 11, 2014 10:41 pm

10gaOkie wrote:Lost
Answering your question about my smooth bore Hastings barrel, it shows no sign of improvement over a standard factory barrel. Even though it is of heavy construction just like the WL barrels. It is marked the same as a WL barrel as well and uses the same chokes. The only way to tell if I barrel is WL or not is look down the barrel. I believe Hastings made a lot of these smooth bore barrels. Mine does show signs of improvement with a extended choke the same as a factory barrel would. My WL barrels do not show this same improvement with an extended choke. As for straight grooved chokes, I would think this would do more to upset the shot column than be of a benefit to pattern improvement. The HW barrels groove benefit by not upsetting the shot column running the full barrel length.
I truly believe the straight grooves, eleminate spinning of the wad, however, I have no proof, nor do I know why the wad would tend to spin with a smoothbore barrrel. I just know from seeing how the WL barrels perform compared to smooth bore barrels. I have not tried to figure all of this out but just enjoy using the WL barrels and their performance. So this puts us back to where we started.

Chris


Chris & I are paddling in the same canoe.
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Re: Why ejecta can spin

Postby Yuchi1 » Tue Mar 11, 2014 10:55 pm

MK10 wrote:
Jon Bergren wrote:What all the "negatives" are ignoring is the fact that Yuichi and I have 3 chokes with burnish marks that show the eject can and does spin. The reason is quite simple that the centerline of the moment of inertia is eccentric. If what you are saying is true then there is no such thing as unbalanced auto tires. Also making sure the Nuke weapon warheads didn't need the MI checked. Ned S


Firstly, I'm not sure how you get actual "burnish marks" from a plastic wad. Given your engineering background and the fact that you use that specific term, tells me that something abrasive has been added to either the manufacturing/polishing process of those chokes or that you and Yuchi have been using abrasive materials to clean those chokes.

Secondly, and as per a previous post you put up, the shot cup centreline can be offset (parallel) with centreline of the rest of the wad or it can be at an angle………it can't be both. How you or anyone else can determine either scenario without high tech equipment is not clear to me. How did you measure this centreline offset or misalignment?

If you are suggesting that the shot-cup/petal wall thickness varies in those particular wads, then this is something different yet again.

In my opinion, the only way you can introduce revolution of the wad is by introducing a mechanical feature into the barrel or choke design.

Finally, I go through approximately 10,000 target loads per annum, another 1,500 waterfowl loads and about 750 upland game loads. In the many, many years I've been doing this, and like countless other shotgunners, I only see one notable thing when cleaning my barrels and/or chokes……………..straight/longitudinal plastic streak marks.

Given the centuries of shotgunning and the lessons learnt, and the fact that no one other than you or Yuchi have recorded such a finding tells me that it is an "extremely" rare event.


MK,

The choke tube I observed this event with was a factory smooth bore barrel and patterning RSI recipe handloads using the heavily ribbed RSI Sam1 shotcup. In removing the choke tube (for cleaning) the "scrub marks" noticed in it had a somewhat odd appearance to them. In measuring these marks, it was noted they presented a slight spiral of these "scrub marks" from the top to the bottom of the choke tube, in appearance somewhat as the lands/grooves in a rifle barrel.

As with Chris' and others' observations, I have noted markedly superior patterns with these HWL barrels as compared to standard factory barrels. With the only difference being the straight grooves broached into the HWL bore, what else could these pattern results be attributed to?

Factory barrels compared to the HWL barrel(s) include Browning Invector Plus & Remington ProBore (both are overbored barrels) and Beretta barrels that have had the forcing cones extended out well past the factory specs.

A mystery to rival the trinity?
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Re: Why ejecta can spin

Postby Yuchi1 » Tue Mar 11, 2014 11:07 pm

MK10 wrote:
Jon Bergren wrote:What all the "negatives" are ignoring is the fact that Yuichi and I have 3 chokes with burnish marks that show the eject can and does spin. The reason is quite simple that the centerline of the moment of inertia is eccentric. If what you are saying is true then there is no such thing as unbalanced auto tires. Also making sure the Nuke weapon warheads didn't need the MI checked. Ned S


Firstly, I'm not sure how you get actual "burnish marks" from a plastic wad. Given your engineering background and the fact that you use that specific term, tells me that something abrasive has been added to either the manufacturing/polishing process of those chokes or that you and Yuchi have been using abrasive materials to clean those chokes.

Secondly, and as per a previous post you put up, the shot cup centreline can be offset (parallel) with centreline of the rest of the wad or it can be at an angle………it can't be both. How you or anyone else can determine either scenario without high tech equipment is not clear to me. How did you measure this centreline offset or misalignment?

If you are suggesting that the shot-cup/petal wall thickness varies in those particular wads, then this is something different yet again.

In my opinion, the only way you can introduce revolution of the wad is by introducing a mechanical feature into the barrel or choke design.

Finally, I go through approximately 10,000 target loads per annum, another 1,500 waterfowl loads and about 750 upland game loads. In the many, many years I've been doing this, and like countless other shotgunners, I only see one notable thing when cleaning my barrels and/or chokes……………..straight/longitudinal plastic streak marks.

Given the centuries of shotgunning and the lessons learnt, and the fact that no one other than you or Yuchi have recorded such a finding tells me that it is an "extremely" rare event.


MK,

A bit OP, however, given your shooting stats referenced above and that it equates out to ~33 cartridges fired for each day of the year and at a cost of ~$34,000.00 (@$7/box of 25), I am assuming you're one of the landed gentry found in Australia? This leads to the general question of hunting in Australia as to what proportion of the population actually hunts? The affluent or do commoners get in on the sport and if so, are there public hunting areas available or is it pretty much a private land/lease affair?

Thanx,
Yu
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Re: Why ejecta can spin

Postby MK10 » Wed Mar 12, 2014 12:33 am

Yuchi1 wrote:
MK10 wrote:
Jon Bergren wrote:What all the "negatives" are ignoring is the fact that Yuichi and I have 3 chokes with burnish marks that show the eject can and does spin. The reason is quite simple that the centerline of the moment of inertia is eccentric. If what you are saying is true then there is no such thing as unbalanced auto tires. Also making sure the Nuke weapon warheads didn't need the MI checked. Ned S


Firstly, I'm not sure how you get actual "burnish marks" from a plastic wad. Given your engineering background and the fact that you use that specific term, tells me that something abrasive has been added to either the manufacturing/polishing process of those chokes or that you and Yuchi have been using abrasive materials to clean those chokes.

Secondly, and as per a previous post you put up, the shot cup centreline can be offset (parallel) with centreline of the rest of the wad or it can be at an angle………it can't be both. How you or anyone else can determine either scenario without high tech equipment is not clear to me. How did you measure this centreline offset or misalignment?

If you are suggesting that the shot-cup/petal wall thickness varies in those particular wads, then this is something different yet again.

In my opinion, the only way you can introduce revolution of the wad is by introducing a mechanical feature into the barrel or choke design.

Finally, I go through approximately 10,000 target loads per annum, another 1,500 waterfowl loads and about 750 upland game loads. In the many, many years I've been doing this, and like countless other shotgunners, I only see one notable thing when cleaning my barrels and/or chokes……………..straight/longitudinal plastic streak marks.

Given the centuries of shotgunning and the lessons learnt, and the fact that no one other than you or Yuchi have recorded such a finding tells me that it is an "extremely" rare event.


MK,

A bit OP, however, given your shooting stats referenced above and that it equates out to ~33 cartridges fired for each day of the year and at a cost of ~$34,000.00 (@$7/box of 25), I am assuming you're one of the landed gentry found in Australia? This leads to the general question of hunting in Australia as to what proportion of the population actually hunts? The affluent or do commoners get in on the sport and if so, are there public hunting areas available or is it pretty much a private land/lease affair?

Thanx,
Yu


To be totally honest, I've never really put a figure to my hobby…………….i guess this is partially in fear of my wife finding out. To also put this into perspective, those figures were purely for me hunting/shooting and they a curved back considerably from when I was a younger, "single" man. I've now also got a young son starting in the sport…………………..yes, it's a very expensive hobby, particularly when you consider the other expenses.

We have a great deal of public land (i.e. state forests, state game reserves etc.), but we also have private land. Unlike most other countries, private land access, particularly within my home state is typically free……………..it's simply a case of making contact with the landowner and getting permission. Certainly in my case, you end up making life long friends with these people.

For the last month, I've been travelling interstate to enjoy my 2014 duck season, however, this Saturday sees the start of our duck season which goes through to the end of June. With a daily 10 bird bag limit, it does make hunting worthwhile. Having said that, in two weeks time, we see the start of our quail season - this is something I really look forward to.
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Re: Why ejecta can spin

Postby BT Justice » Wed Mar 12, 2014 4:23 am

lostknife4 wrote:
BT Justice wrote:I'm not getting in the middle of if there is spin or not.My question is if the Wadlock system makes that significant a difference why hasn't any major (or minor) shotgun manufacture made guns with this type of barrel. Yes it would require retooling but if it was that much of an improvement wouldn't it be marketable?


BT
As I see it if they made a smooth bore barrel they couldn't compete with the shotgun manufacturers price wise, but since they put a "spin" on their Paradox barrels and for a specific reason, to stabilize slugs, then they can charge pretty well what the market will pay. But to get some of the replacement "smooth" bore barrel business they make the claim, and even after numerous emails from me asking for proof of the Wadlock stopping any spin and not one word back on that subject, that their Wadlock's "stop shotcups from spinning" I admit that my Wadlock does pattern well but again I attribute that to it's having a much heavier wall thickness and very well designed choke tubes. Some owners have stated on here that the Wadlock choke tubes pattern better than any replacement chokes with the possible exception of the Terror tubes.
So it comes down to economics doesn't it, it would take extra machining and QA etc. to build these straight broached barrels and unless all the shotgun mfgs got on line the additional cost then would not be a sales cost factor because everyone would do it, ain't gonna happen LOL!! The benefit doesn't outweigh the cost unless of course shotcups were spinning Internally in smooth bore barrels at 6000 rpm's !!!!
Lost

That was kind of my point. If it was that significant a difference I believe somebody would have tried to market it.
For example these guys that shoot trap and buy those super duper custom made $15,000 shotguns, what's a bit more cost if it would increase their scores a bit?
As I stated I'm not getting into the "If it Spins or Not" debate, I'm just not sure on that one.
You have to consider another thing also there could be quite a few other reasons these barrels pattern better. I'm just guessing but it could also be pressure release from the grooves cut in the barrel, releasing pressure through the grooves and stabilizing things a bit more could give better patterns also and that's just one guess... :lol3:
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Re: Why ejecta can spin

Postby lostknife4 » Wed Mar 12, 2014 6:34 am

Another screnario, now that we have more information about these marks being axial not radial and it's now understood that they came from a shot pellet that has penetrated the shotcup could this angled scrub mark be made from the pellet moving along the slit in the shotcup since it is scrubbing against the choke tube and all my RSI wads have angled slits?
Lost
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Re: Why ejecta can spin

Postby Yuchi1 » Wed Mar 12, 2014 7:29 am

lostknife4 wrote:Another screnario, now that we have more information about these marks being axial not radial and it's now understood that they came from a shot pellet that has penetrated the shotcup could this angled scrub mark be made from the pellet moving along the slit in the shotcup since it is scrubbing against the choke tube and all my RSI wads have angled slits?
Lost


B,

The scrub marks observed were multiple as in one for each rib of the RSI SAM I shotcup rather than a single one as when a pellet perforates the shotcup whilst going down the bore. Sorry if my original comments were misleading.

Yu
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Re: Why ejecta can spin

Postby lostknife4 » Wed Mar 12, 2014 1:04 pm

Yuchi1 wrote:
lostknife4 wrote:Another screnario, now that we have more information about these marks being axial not radial and it's now understood that they came from a shot pellet that has penetrated the shotcup could this angled scrub mark be made from the pellet moving along the slit in the shotcup since it is scrubbing against the choke tube and all my RSI wads have angled slits?
Lost


B,

The scrub marks observed were multiple as in one for each rib of the RSI SAM I shotcup rather than a single one as when a pellet perforates the shotcup whilst going down the bore. Sorry if my original comments were misleading.

Yu


Yuchi,
My Sam 1 2-3/4" 12 ga Shotcups have about 20 "splines" or ribs and 4 slits and also on the obturating base it appears to have 3 narrow approx Ø.125" wide "keyways" on the periphery running in the same direction as the "splines" on the forward section, from the base of the ribs to the base of the shotcup skirt about Ø.220" long x about Ø.001 - Ø.002 deep.
How many scrub marks did you get in the choke tube?
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Re: Why ejecta can spin

Postby lostknife4 » Wed Mar 12, 2014 1:12 pm

Yuchi1 wrote:
lostknife4 wrote:Another screnario, now that we have more information about these marks being axial not radial and it's now understood that they came from a shot pellet that has penetrated the shotcup could this angled scrub mark be made from the pellet moving along the slit in the shotcup since it is scrubbing against the choke tube and all my RSI wads have angled slits?
Lost


B,

The scrub marks observed were multiple as in one for each rib of the RSI SAM I shotcup rather than a single one as when a pellet perforates the shotcup whilst going down the bore. Sorry if my original comments were misleading.

Yu


Yuchi,
My Sam 1 2-3/4" 12 ga Shotcups have about 20 "splines" or ribs and 4 slits and also on the obturating base it appears to have 3 narrow approx Ø.125" wide "keyways" on the periphery running in the same direction as the "splines" on the forward section, from the base of the ribs to the base of the shotcup skirt about Ø.220" long x about Ø.001 - Ø.002 deep. Did you recover any spent shotcups responsible for these markings?
How many scrub marks did you get in the choke tube?
Lost
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Re: Why ejecta can spin

Postby Mugzwump » Wed Mar 12, 2014 6:03 pm

Now this is a lot like debating a UFO sighting. If your evidence is not repeatable along side a control... it is not proof! It's just some guy claiming he saw the sasquatch flyin' a harley one time.

Mugz.
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Re: Why ejecta can spin

Postby Frank Lopez » Wed Mar 12, 2014 6:28 pm

Anybody else wonder about Ned's hypothesis and Yuchi's? Ned states that the load spins because of an imbalance. Plausable, in my opinion. Yuchi states that his barrels were scored/burnished symmetrically, i.e. on four equally spaced sides matching the slits in the wad, if I understand it correctly. Further, Ned bases his hypothesis on his personal evidence (not being questioned) and the evidence that Yuchi provided. Either that fish don't swim, or I'm missing something here.

Frank
I feel slightly sorry for a man who has never patterned his gun, who has no idea how far his chosen load will retain killing penetration. But I'm extremely sorry for the ducks he shoots at beyond the killing range of his gun and load - Bob Brister
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Re: Why ejecta can spin

Postby MK10 » Wed Mar 12, 2014 8:55 pm

Mugzwump wrote:Now this is a lot like debating a UFO sighting. If your evidence is not repeatable along side a control... it is not proof! It's just some guy claiming he saw the sasquatch flyin' a harley one time.

Mugz.



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