Why ejecta can spin

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Re: Why ejecta can spin

Postby Yuchi1 » Thu Mar 13, 2014 12:07 am

Yuchi,
My Sam 1 2-3/4" 12 ga Shotcups have about 20 "splines" or ribs and 4 slits and also on the obturating base it appears to have 3 narrow approx Ø.125" wide "keyways" on the periphery running in the same direction as the "splines" on the forward section, from the base of the ribs to the base of the shotcup skirt about Ø.220" long x about Ø.001 - Ø.002 deep. Did you recover any spent shotcups responsible for these markings?
How many scrub marks did you get in the choke tube?
Lost


Lost,

From rote memory, there were 3-4 of these scrub marks/lines in the tube. As I store the shotguns with gel type recoil pads, barrel down in the gun safe to avoid the pads taking a set, and as this was a Briley XS tube and didn't want to store it with the weight of the shotgun on the tube & threads, I removed it from the barrel, at point of storage which is when these markings were noted. The stainless steel design of the extended tube made for a more distinct observation of said markings as with a typical blued type tube, it would likely have been missed. As this was discovered post-patterning session, recovery of the spent shotcups was not done at the time and by the time I noted this observation, let Ned know about it, they would've likely been destroyed as the patterning range gets mowed regularly during the warm times.

It is what it is, as as Smugzwump opined, Bigfoot may have been riding a Harley by at the time and caused this to happen?
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Re: Why ejecta can spin

Postby mudpack » Thu Mar 13, 2014 6:53 am

dog walker wrote:The briley tubes that have "spirally rifling" are their spreader chokes...


From the Briley website, on their Helix tubes:
"Special angled lateral ports impart spin on the shot charge as it passes through the choke, resulting in select core pellets migrating to the outer portion of the pattern. The result? More even pellet distribution, pattern-wide.
All Helix chokes come with Briley’s exclusive Spectrum colorband identification system.
Lead shot only."


Nothing about spreaders....and, you can get this choke in every constriction up to and including Extra Full. So, it's not being promoted as a spreader choke.
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Re: Why ejecta can spin

Postby lostknife4 » Thu Mar 13, 2014 7:26 am

mudpack wrote:
dog walker wrote:The briley tubes that have "spirally rifling" are their spreader chokes...


From the Briley website, on their Helix tubes:
"Special angled lateral ports impart spin on the shot charge as it passes through the choke resulting in increased pattern diameter size at decreased ranges., resulting in select core pellets Who selects who goes and who stays LOL migrating by centrifugal force to the outer portion of the pattern. Since the outer pellets have already gone off at a tangent The result? More even pellet distribution, pattern-wide. LMAO, at a MUCH LARGER pattern but pattern density is decreased to the point of being useless at less than 25 feet or so range. This is a real masterpiece of marketing BS!
All Helix chokes come with Briley’s exclusive Spectrum colorband identification system.
Lead shot only."


Nothing about spreaders....and, you can get this choke in every constriction up to and including Extra Full. So, it's not being promoted as a spreader choke.
They already stated that it's a spreader choke and they described it in a most marketable way IMHO.

Lost
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Re: Why ejecta can spin

Postby lostknife4 » Thu Mar 13, 2014 7:36 am

Yuchi1 wrote:Yuchi,
My Sam 1 2-3/4" 12 ga Shotcups have about 20 "splines" or ribs and 4 slits and also on the obturating base it appears to have 3 narrow approx Ø.125" wide "keyways" on the periphery running in the same direction as the "splines" on the forward section, from the base of the ribs to the base of the shotcup skirt about Ø.220" long x about Ø.001 - Ø.002 deep. Did you recover any spent shotcups responsible for these markings?
How many scrub marks did you get in the choke tube?
Lost


Lost,

From rote memory, there were 3-4 of these scrub marks/lines in the tube. As I store the shotguns with gel type recoil pads, barrel down in the gun safe to avoid the pads taking a set, and as this was a Briley XS tube and didn't want to store it with the weight of the shotgun on the tube & threads, I removed it from the barrel, at point of storage which is when these markings were noted. The stainless steel design of the extended tube made for a more distinct observation of said markings as with a typical blued type tube, it would likely have been missed. As this was discovered post-patterning session, recovery of the spent shotcups was not done at the time and by the time I noted this observation, let Ned know about it, they would've likely been destroyed as the patterning range gets mowed regularly during the warm times.

It is what it is, as as Smugzwump opined, Bigfoot may have been riding a Harley by at the time and caused this to happen?


4 scrub marks would tend to make me look more towards investigating the source as being pellets moving outward and being pushed down the curved shotcup splits and which would be most prevalent at the forcing cone and choke constriction, IMHO I suspect too that no Mylar wrap was used to negate any shot scrubbing especially being used in over bore barrels. So we have some criteria to try to first duplicate the scrub marks and second to eradicate them just by using Mylar in the same gun/choke combination that started this whole round of "investigation and discussion" in the first place.
I too store some guns barrel down not because of the recoil pads but more to keep any extra storage oil from seeping into the wood stocks.

Lost
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Re: Why ejecta can spin

Postby mudpack » Thu Mar 13, 2014 9:22 am

lostknife4 wrote:They already stated that it's a spreader choke and they described it in a most marketable way IMHO.[/color]


Two things: Briley didn't state that the Helix was a spreader choke. I quoted the description in its entirety.

I know their reasons for "improved patterns" are bogus. You know they're bogus. But many people would think it sounds logical (even though it isn't) and might buy one. That's how effective marketing works.
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Re: Why ejecta can spin

Postby lostknife4 » Thu Mar 13, 2014 9:35 am

mudpack wrote:
lostknife4 wrote:They already stated that it's a spreader choke and they described it in a most marketable way IMHO.[/color]


Two things: Briley didn't state that the Helix was a spreader choke. I quoted the description in its entirety.

I know their reasons for "improved patterns" are bogus. You know they're bogus. But many people would think it sounds logical (even though it isn't) and might buy one. That's how effective marketing works.



And look where that kind of propaganda got Hevi !!!! LOL
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Re: Why ejecta can spin

Postby Frank Lopez » Thu Mar 13, 2014 10:14 am

lostknife4 wrote:
mudpack wrote:
lostknife4 wrote:They already stated that it's a spreader choke and they described it in a most marketable way IMHO.[/color]


Two things: Briley didn't state that the Helix was a spreader choke. I quoted the description in its entirety.

I know their reasons for "improved patterns" are bogus. You know they're bogus. But many people would think it sounds logical (even though it isn't) and might buy one. That's how effective marketing works.



And look where that kind of propaganda got Hevi !!!! LOL
Lost


Well, I give the "spinning wad" pro staffers a bit more credibility than most Hevi pro staffers! :lol3:
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Re: Why ejecta can spin

Postby Yuchi1 » Thu Mar 13, 2014 12:46 pm

lostknife4 wrote:
Yuchi1 wrote:Yuchi,
My Sam 1 2-3/4" 12 ga Shotcups have about 20 "splines" or ribs and 4 slits and also on the obturating base it appears to have 3 narrow approx Ø.125" wide "keyways" on the periphery running in the same direction as the "splines" on the forward section, from the base of the ribs to the base of the shotcup skirt about Ø.220" long x about Ø.001 - Ø.002 deep. Did you recover any spent shotcups responsible for these markings?
How many scrub marks did you get in the choke tube?
Lost


Lost,

From rote memory, there were 3-4 of these scrub marks/lines in the tube. As I store the shotguns with gel type recoil pads, barrel down in the gun safe to avoid the pads taking a set, and as this was a Briley XS tube and didn't want to store it with the weight of the shotgun on the tube & threads, I removed it from the barrel, at point of storage which is when these markings were noted. The stainless steel design of the extended tube made for a more distinct observation of said markings as with a typical blued type tube, it would likely have been missed. As this was discovered post-patterning session, recovery of the spent shotcups was not done at the time and by the time I noted this observation, let Ned know about it, they would've likely been destroyed as the patterning range gets mowed regularly during the warm times.

It is what it is, as as Smugzwump opined, Bigfoot may have been riding a Harley by at the time and caused this to happen?


4 scrub marks would tend to make me look more towards investigating the source as being pellets moving outward and being pushed down the curved shotcup splits and which would be most prevalent at the forcing cone and choke constriction, IMHO I suspect too that no Mylar wrap was used to negate any shot scrubbing especially being used in over bore barrels. So we have some criteria to try to first duplicate the scrub marks and second to eradicate them just by using Mylar in the same gun/choke combination that started this whole round of "investigation and discussion" in the first place.
I too store some guns barrel down not because of the recoil pads but more to keep any extra storage oil from seeping into the wood stocks.

Lost


According to my last visit to the Briley website, they published the nominal ID bore for various shotgun barrels as:

.723 Beretta, Benelli, Franchi MobilChoke systems
.729 Remington RemChoke systems
.730 Beretta Optima, Benelli Crio systems
.742 Browning/Winchester Invector Plus & Remington ProBore systems

Also, the type of shotcup used would probably be a major factor as (i.e.) the RSI SAM I shotcups do not perform well in overbore barrels such as the Mossberg UltiMag (~.745) barrels apparently due to the shotcup skirt not forming as good of a gas seal when compared to other bore sizes.


BTW, in honor of Frank, the new HWL barrel marketing slogan for we ProStaffers is: If it don't spin, you will win! :wink:
Sent from my Sumerian tablets

Does the number of bands claimed simply mean you have an Ebay account?

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Re: Why ejecta can spin

Postby lostknife4 » Thu Mar 13, 2014 12:59 pm

Yuchi not only would the skirt not obturate sufficiently but the petal slits would open up allowing shot to scrub the forcing cone then the barrel and then the choke tube, in different degrees as well.
Lost
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Re: Why ejecta can spin

Postby Mugzwump » Thu Mar 13, 2014 9:06 pm

Yuchi1 wrote:Yuchi,
My Sam 1 2-3/4" 12 ga Shotcups have about 20 "splines" or ribs and 4 slits and also on the obturating base it appears to have 3 narrow approx Ø.125" wide "keyways" on the periphery running in the same direction as the "splines" on the forward section, from the base of the ribs to the base of the shotcup skirt about Ø.220" long x about Ø.001 - Ø.002 deep. Did you recover any spent shotcups responsible for these markings?
How many scrub marks did you get in the choke tube?
Lost


Lost,

From rote memory, there were 3-4 of these scrub marks/lines in the tube. As I store the shotguns with gel type recoil pads, barrel down in the gun safe to avoid the pads taking a set, and as this was a Briley XS tube and didn't want to store it with the weight of the shotgun on the tube & threads, I removed it from the barrel, at point of storage which is when these markings were noted. The stainless steel design of the extended tube made for a more distinct observation of said markings as with a typical blued type tube, it would likely have been missed. As this was discovered post-patterning session, recovery of the spent shotcups was not done at the time and by the time I noted this observation, let Ned know about it, they would've likely been destroyed as the patterning range gets mowed regularly during the warm times.

It is what it is, as as Smugzwump opined, Bigfoot may have been riding a Harley by at the time and caused this to happen?


Well that's one Bigfoot sighting. Can we get a confirmation...? maybe a second report...? Hey lets go back to that spot and see if we can spot him again... or is his Harley too fast?

Smugzwump... lol. I'm gonna let that one rip at the camp this weekend. :hammer:

None of these "spiralie choke wad" companies have any scientific reasoning behind their product. Clearly just opportunistic businessmen taking advantage of the average joe... just like everything else. Why don't we throw some helix shaped shot into it launch it at 2300fps and call it "Mach-7 Magnum-Vortex-Plus-Awesome... There is no escape!" coming soon to your nearest Wal-mart. We'll put a 'lil picture of a tornado attacking ducks on the box and sell them for $45 a box of five. You know you want it.

Mugz.
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Re: Why ejecta can spin

Postby lostknife4 » Mon Mar 17, 2014 11:57 am

mudpack wrote:
dog walker wrote:The briley tubes that have "spirally rifling" are their spreader chokes...


From the Briley website, on their Helix tubes:
"Special angled lateral ports impart spin on the shot charge as it passes through the choke, resulting in select core pellets migrating to the outer portion of the pattern. The result? More even pellet distribution, pattern-wide.
All Helix chokes come with Briley’s exclusive Spectrum colorband identification system.
Lead shot only."


Nothing about spreaders....and, you can get this choke in every constriction up to and including Extra Full. So, it's not being promoted as a spreader choke.


Clearly Briley's description of what happens to the shot sure sounds like the definition of a spreader choke tube to me. Really these spiral tubes are for use with Slugs.
Lost
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Re: Why ejecta can spin

Postby mudpack » Mon Mar 17, 2014 3:48 pm

lostknife4 wrote:
mudpack wrote:
dog walker wrote:The briley tubes that have "spirally rifling" are their spreader chokes...


From the Briley website, on their Helix tubes:
"Special angled lateral ports impart spin on the shot charge as it passes through the choke, resulting in select core pellets migrating to the outer portion of the pattern. The result? More even pellet distribution, pattern-wide.
All Helix chokes come with Briley’s exclusive Spectrum colorband identification system.
Lead shot only."


Nothing about spreaders....and, you can get this choke in every constriction up to and including Extra Full. So, it's not being promoted as a spreader choke.


Clearly Briley's description of what happens to the shot sure sounds like the definition of a spreader choke tube to me. Really these spiral tubes are for use with Slugs.
Lost


You might want to tell that to Briley. They obviously don't feel the same way.
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Re: Why ejecta can spin

Postby lostknife4 » Mon Mar 17, 2014 6:22 pm

I will ask them the difference !
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