Holy grail and rio primers

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Holy grail and rio primers

Postby inthebox30lbs » Wed Mar 19, 2014 5:22 pm

Has anyone tried rio 209's with Chris's holy grail load? Thanks
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Re: Holy grail and rio primers

Postby 3200 man » Wed Mar 19, 2014 9:26 pm

With the HG load calling for a Ched 209 , if you follow the recipe Chris has given us , you might not like the out-come ?

I have used the Rio primer in Rio Hulls with good results but , it was not the Holy Grail load !
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Re: Holy grail and rio primers

Postby Jon Bergren » Wed Mar 19, 2014 9:41 pm

I sub the Rio Primer for the Fed 209A. Ned S
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Re: Holy grail and rio primers

Postby 10gaOkie » Thu Mar 20, 2014 6:00 am

As Ned says, he subs the Rio primer for the Fed209a. Both of these are very hot primers. The Ched primer is a mild primer. If you must sub another primer for the Ched, sub with either the Win209 or CCI209. However, the results are much better sticking with the Ched primer with the HG load.

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Re: Holy grail and rio primers

Postby culot » Thu Mar 20, 2014 8:17 am

Hi,

when you stateside say Ched 209 primer, are we talking CX1000 or CX2000 ?

in Italy is CX2000 a hot primer and CX1000 mild/ cold primer

/ Peter
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Re: Holy grail and rio primers

Postby lostknife4 » Thu Mar 20, 2014 8:38 am

All my Cheditte primers are 2000 series as indicated by the stamped manufacturers data log on the rear bottom of the 100 pack card.

I have seen quite often, more so in these last few years than before, people wanting to sub components and I can understand that but back in 1988 Wallace Labisky did a test on Shotshell Primer Ignition Strength for Handloader Magazine January-February Issue pg 45 ff in which he clearly shows that no two primers from different manufacturers are alike and serious changes in pressure and velocity are the result. WHY would you chance the substitution of any component without first having that loading pressure tested???? I have read several articles on this primer substitution and when time permits I will reference them in a later posting but clearly there are differences and any substitutions posted should be accompanied with certified test results
I don't care how old you are or what your experience is, what has worked for you with your components and loading procedures and gun and temperature and relative humidity and elevation , your hands and arms and head are different from everyone else! In other words what works for some may maim or kill another.
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Re: Holy grail and rio primers

Postby C M Wings » Thu Mar 20, 2014 9:15 am

What Lost said X2000000.

The cheapest part of the equation if the primer - use the one specified.

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Re: Holy grail and rio primers

Postby C M Wings » Thu Mar 20, 2014 9:17 am

What Lost said X2000000.

The cheapest part of the equation is the primer - use the one specified.

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Re: Holy grail and rio primers

Postby Jon Bergren » Thu Mar 20, 2014 9:38 am

RSI said to use Cheddites in place of W209's when the Blue Box ones first came out and ran the recipes with the W209 200-300 fps slower. Also I do not use BP's load data as 2001 Status of Steel had 7/8 oz loads that had 7 grs more STEEL powder in them. They also deleted 55 other recipes because of overpressure. Who do you beleve? Ned S
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Re: Holy grail and rio primers

Postby lostknife4 » Thu Mar 20, 2014 10:54 am

Jon Bergren wrote:RSI said to use Cheddites (CX1000 or CX2000 and what was the date and reference for this information) in place of W209's when the Blue Box ones first came out and ran the recipes with the W209 200-300 fps slower. Also I do not use BP's load data as 2001 Status of Steel had 7/8 oz loads that had 7 grs more STEEL powder in them. They also deleted 55 other recipes because of overpressure. Who do you beleve? Ned S


It's getting very difficult to use handbooks today as they never tell you what the Lot Number was for the powder in question nor any other components nor the date the testing was done. It's clearly evident with the change in energy from ASteel powder recently that a lot of the old recipes are not up to date pressure wise because they have or had used older components.
As Ned said: "Who do you beleve? Ned S" but I certainly wouldn't be posting any substitutions unless I had written referenced confirmation from some test facility or Handbook and even then without a thorough search for very similar loadings just to assure myself that the loads are backed up by very similar loadings from other data sources.

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Re: Holy grail and rio primers

Postby baltz526 » Thu Mar 20, 2014 11:06 am

Who do I believe? Alliant, Lyman, Hodgdon. BP most of the time. I use Rio primers in all Rio hulls, They fit. I use Rio primers in Cheddite hulls where fed209A are called for. I use Rio primers as a substitute for Winchester 209 in Winchester hulls. Someday I'll find some Winchester 209 on a shelf, Maybe.
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Re: Holy grail and rio primers

Postby lostknife4 » Thu Mar 20, 2014 11:13 am

baltz526 wrote:Who do I believe? Alliant, Lyman, Hodgdon. BP most of the time. I use Rio primers in all Rio hulls, They fit. I use Rio primers in Cheddite hulls where fed209A are called for. I use Rio primers as a substitute for Winchester 209 in Winchester hulls. Someday I'll find some Winchester 209 on a shelf, Maybe.



"BP most of the time", LMAO me too but I also cross reference those loads with as close as possible from other manuals.
I think if we use the latest Data available and new components our chances are pretty good that we will be safe however there is always a chance...... Use "Due Diligence" I guess best describes it.
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Re: Holy grail and rio primers

Postby inthebox30lbs » Thu Mar 20, 2014 1:58 pm

I'm not worried about pressure, I drop the powder charge 2 grains and load 480 gr. of steel shot. So it's a modified holy grail. The reason I'm asking is id like a hotter primer that I don't have to resize the primer pockets. I have been using win209's with really good success. I'm sick of having to resize the primer pocket. With the rios this won't be a problem. I'm concerned about patterns because with the win209 I'm getting phenomenal patterns. I'm seeing a lot of unburnt powder in colder weather with the cheddite 209. These are geap finished as well, and my crimps are tight and perfect. The federal 209 loaded the exact same way was fine and burned a lot cleaner, but they need to be resized. Just curios before I load a vince up this week to pattern test. Thanks
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Re: Holy grail and rio primers

Postby 10gaOkie » Thu Mar 20, 2014 5:08 pm

If you use a MEC Supersizer to size your hulls with anyway, you wont have to worry about the primer pockets anymore. The HG load patterns best with #2 steel pellets and with using a CX2000 primer. Not backing off on the powder charge and using a hotter primer.

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Re: Holy grail and rio primers

Postby inthebox30lbs » Thu Mar 20, 2014 5:36 pm

Well i must have a super sizer that doesn't work right all the pockets need to be resized. Primer will not seat tightly and have had them come out in the action, push out when applying wad pressure. This is with American primers. No doubt about the patterns with the cx 2000 primers and the original load. The load is just as good with the hotter 209 and runs cleaner. I'm getting 1425 and better patterns than the original with your grail backed down to 32gr. And 480 gr of shot. And it fits better. I like 2's but after shooting a bunch of 3's that is what I will load a case of for the upcoming season. We shot three cases of your grail this year Chris and everyone who has touched it is SOLD!! It's the only thing I will load now in a 2 3/4oz load.
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Re: Holy grail and rio primers

Postby Theduckguru » Thu Mar 20, 2014 6:33 pm

Jon Bergren wrote:RSI said to use Cheddites in place of W209's when the Blue Box ones first came out and ran the recipes with the W209 200-300 fps slower. Also I do not use BP's load data as 2001 Status of Steel had 7/8 oz loads that had 7 grs more STEEL powder in them. They also deleted 55 other recipes because of overpressure. Who do you beleve? Ned S


RSI states you may sub a primer, ask them for the statement in writting and listen to the stuttering. Personally, I take no ones published steel shot data at face value, BP, RSI, PR, and Alliant included.
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Re: Holy grail and rio primers

Postby 10gaOkie » Thu Mar 20, 2014 7:20 pm

Scott,
Using my mec SS, I can even resize blue Rio hulls and the pockets size down enough to hold a Win209 or CCI209 primer. I have talked to other reloaders that are using the primer pocket conditioning tool. They reported problems too wtih primers coming out during ignition and jamming their action with the loose fired primer rattling around inside their action. They were using the collet type sizer mounted on their press. I cant say for sure about using the conditioning tool from my own experience because I never felt the need for using it. But from what I have heard, I would be sceptic about using one. I have seen problems with the collet type sizer on the Sizemaster press not giving the same results as a regular Supersizer. From owning one myself, I dont think the collet sizer on the press does the same job as a seperate supersizer collet does. I hope this sheds some light on your primer pocket sizing.
From my testing, I always get at least 1475fps from the HG load and sometimes as much as 1510. I also found that it gives way better patterns with #2s over #1s and #3s.

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Re: Holy grail and rio primers

Postby cannon » Thu Mar 20, 2014 8:27 pm

10gaOkie wrote:Scott,
Using my mec SS, I can even resize blue Rio hulls and the pockets size down enough to hold a Win209 or CCI209 primer. I have talked to other reloaders that are using the primer pocket conditioning tool. They reported problems too wtih primers coming out during ignition and jamming their action with the loose fired primer rattling around inside their action. They were using the collet type sizer mounted on their press. I cant say for sure about using the conditioning tool from my own experience because I never felt the need for using it. But from what I have heard, I would be sceptic about using one. I have seen problems with the collet type sizer on the Sizemaster press not giving the same results as a regular Supersizer. From owning one myself, I dont think the collet sizer on the press does the same job as a seperate supersizer collet does. I hope this sheds some light on your primer pocket sizing.
From my testing, I always get at least 1475fps from the HG load and sometimes as much as 1510. I also found that it gives way better patterns with #2s over #1s and #3s.

Chris


I can say they don't for me. The collets on my size/steelmasters do NOT resize the primer pockets sufficiently to hold American primers in behind European primers. I've never used a supersizer, but they must do a better job. Chris is not the first I've heard allude to this.
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Re: Holy grail and rio primers

Postby 10gaOkie » Thu Mar 20, 2014 8:46 pm

RIght now, I only have mec 600 presses plus my supersizers that I use. For awhile, I thought it would be nice to have a sizemaster press. I found the collet sizer on it did not work the same as my mec Supersizers do. Simular, but they just dont do a complete job of sizing like the supersizer does. I am not sure why this is. A good friend of mine here on DHC was sizing with his collet sizer mounted on his sizemaster. He also was using a primer pocket tool too. He was loading Ched primers in Diana hulls. In this process, he was having primers back out and get loose inside his action with this combo. Not long ago, I got hold of some of the same Diana hulls, sized them normal and my Ched primers fit tight as ****'s hat band. This is why I think there is a diff. Of all the hulls I have fooled with, the Rio hulls seem to have the largest primer pockets.

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Re: Holy grail and rio primers

Postby flyndutchman » Thu Mar 20, 2014 10:26 pm

I have an old MEC "Case Conditioner" with a tight sizer ring. It will size the Rio's down enough to hold a Cheddite or new Win 209 primer. The hulls won't hold a CCI or Fed primer though. I sometimes loose a hull to ripping the base if it has a slight wrinkle at the top of the metal.
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Re: Holy grail and rio primers

Postby culot » Fri Mar 21, 2014 1:23 am

cannon wrote:
10gaOkie wrote:Scott,
Using my mec SS, I can even resize blue Rio hulls and the pockets size down enough to hold a Win209 or CCI209 primer. I have talked to other reloaders that are using the primer pocket conditioning tool. They reported problems too wtih primers coming out during ignition and jamming their action with the loose fired primer rattling around inside their action. They were using the collet type sizer mounted on their press. I cant say for sure about using the conditioning tool from my own experience because I never felt the need for using it. But from what I have heard, I would be sceptic about using one. I have seen problems with the collet type sizer on the Sizemaster press not giving the same results as a regular Supersizer. From owning one myself, I dont think the collet sizer on the press does the same job as a seperate supersizer collet does. I hope this sheds some light on your primer pocket sizing.
From my testing, I always get at least 1475fps from the HG load and sometimes as much as 1510. I also found that it gives way better patterns with #2s over #1s and #3s.

Chris


I can say they don't for me. The collets on my size/steelmasters do NOT resize the primer pockets sufficiently to hold American primers in behind European primers. I've never used a supersizer, but they must do a better job. Chris is not the first I've heard allude to this.


Hi ,

It was so long i owned my sizemaster77 i dont exactly remember the function of the deprime function, but a friend from Italy told me he deprime the hulls before he run them in a mec supersizer , and thats made the primers fit better.
/ Peter
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Re: Holy grail and rio primers

Postby BT Justice » Fri Mar 21, 2014 3:54 am

I have my own thoughts about the Rio hulls, coincidence being the primer pockets seem to be the same size as Fiocchi hulls, makes one think wouldn't it.
I try to avoid European made hulls like the plague with STEEL powder loads , to much BS involved with resizing or trying to get good ignition from most of the Euro primers.
My thoughts are if your going to use Rio hulls then use Rio primers and find a load that works with them.
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Re: Holy grail and rio primers

Postby 10gaOkie » Fri Mar 21, 2014 5:55 am

My favorite 2 3/4 12ga hulls are Cheddite, purple Fiocchi, orange Nobel Sport, black Keman, red Cleaver Mirage, all Euro hulls. I do not include the Rios or use them.

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Re: Holy grail and rio primers

Postby 3200 man » Fri Mar 21, 2014 7:57 am

Why not use Rio hulls , as they are very plentiful in my area ? They hold a full 1 1/8 oz of shot and crimp very nicely and
while I use them as pitch loads , the Gaep tool makes them very efficient and consistent with the Rio primer !
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Re: Holy grail and rio primers

Postby Jon Bergren » Fri Mar 21, 2014 9:35 am

baltz526 wrote:Who do I believe? Alliant, Lyman, Hodgdon. BP most of the time. I use Rio primers in all Rio hulls, They fit. I use Rio primers in Cheddite hulls where fed209A are called for. I use Rio primers as a substitute for Winchester 209 in Winchester hulls. Someday I'll find some Winchester 209 on a shelf, Maybe.


If you use Rio Primers for Cheddite primers in Lightning Steel 2 recipe #36 and happen to use a Rio hull with a cracked basewad I guarantee that you will blow up your shotgun. Ned S who has seen two such guns.
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