Cheddite CX2000 primers

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Cheddite CX2000 primers

Postby Quacker-Wacker » Thu May 08, 2014 7:18 am

I need to order some Ched CX2000 primers to load 10gaOkie's HG load. All I can find is Ched type 209, not any marked CX2000. Are they the same primers? :huh:
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Re: Cheddite CX2000 primers

Postby Beretta06 » Thu May 08, 2014 7:44 am

If you do find the 209 is the same they are on sale at ballistic products for $23.99 pre thousand hazmat I'm sure you know will double that.

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Re: Cheddite CX2000 primers

Postby Quacker-Wacker » Thu May 08, 2014 7:52 am

Yes, that's where I'm buying from.
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Re: Cheddite CX2000 primers

Postby Jon Bergren » Thu May 08, 2014 8:47 am

I use the Cheddites in place of W209 and get the same velocities. Ned S
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Re: Cheddite CX2000 primers

Postby lostknife4 » Thu May 08, 2014 11:23 am

The Ched CARTON doesn't indicate which they are but on the back of the 100 pack CARD it will tell you. Mine are marked CX2000.
Lost

I only use them in listed recipes that call for a Ched CX2000 primer. Subbing them for other primers could give higher, same or lower velocities and higher, same or lower pressures in combination with other components and the only way to know is have them tested. Higher pressures don't necessarily equate to higher velocities.
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Re: Cheddite CX2000 primers

Postby Jon Bergren » Thu May 08, 2014 11:44 am

Dr. Samuelson CEO of RSI recommended Cheddite Primers for W209. I found they gave the same velocities in the RSI recipes. Ned S
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Re: Cheddite CX2000 primers

Postby goosepit2007 » Thu May 08, 2014 12:15 pm

Jon Bergren wrote:Dr. Samuelson CEO of RSI recommended Cheddite Primers for W209. I found they gave the same velocities in the RSI recipes. Ned S



along time ago RSI INC told me that ched 209 primer is a very good substitute for his win 209 loads(basically a wash) and i have found that to be true. when testing out the rsi loads from there manual.

i started using cheddite primers alot when they were avaible as components here in usa. then chedditte hulls(which is wash for tested loads too the old activ hulls, after activ dropped out of the hull making world. i found that to be true too as with all loads tested using active hull was same fps and psi with cheddite hulls was the same even with mm wads,bnp wads(all else being the same from prior tested loads) ect ect. rsi manual shows that with the 3 inch loads.


all the primers that i have ordered into the shop have been the cx2000 primers from first ones avaible along time ago to most recent ones shipped couple weeks ago.

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Re: Cheddite CX2000 primers

Postby culot » Thu May 08, 2014 1:44 pm

Hi,

Maby cx2000 is the only cheddite primer imported to states, but here in europe we order cx1000 or cx2000
And cx2000 is the stronger of them.

/Peter
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Re: Cheddite CX2000 primers

Postby lostknife4 » Thu May 08, 2014 4:16 pm

On July 4th 2005 in Shotgun World a Gentleman wrote:

"If you guys think EVERY brand and type of primer ALWAYS is exactly the same and ALWAYS performs exactly the same in EVERY application to within 50 psi of published presure or so you are either very naive or very ill informed. Heck, just the difference in the depth of crimps and number of times a hull was been reloaded makes more difference in presure that the difference between a WW 209 and a Cheddite primer more times than not! That is precisly whay we tell folks to keep back from the high end of chamber pressures becausse primers don't always perform the same, some hulls are stiffer and smaller than others, some crimps are deeper than others, I could go on adnausium. If you stay in the 9500 to 10,000 psi load range you can pretty much use any primer you happen to have other than 209As and magnuum CCIs without any danger. Primers aren't rocket science! And if you saw how they were made, you'd be surprised they are as uniform as they are.

BP
"

on July 15, 2013 Ned wrote:
"Yep! and I use the Cheddite 209's for W209's as suggested by Dr. Samuelson the RSI CEO. Also with this sub I get the same velocities. The Blue Box W209's caused me to do this but I still have 500 of the white Box W209's. Ned S"

on Jan 24, 2010 Ned wrote:
"Tim, Don't you know subbing the primers is dangerous. How come the critics are not getting all over you? :beer: :beer: :beer:
Ned S the young 81 yr old who has to load up some more goose loads using Cheddite primers rather than the W209 called for also VP65 in place of Sam1 shotcups specifically RSI 75. :beer: :beer: :beer:
Ned Swygard"

CX2000 Chedittes have been used for quite some time as a replacement for 209Win and it is my contention that although it works well for "some" loadings as described above by BP it may not work in higher pressure loadings

To make an all encompassing statement that it is a direct substitute is leading the flock to the wrong pasture IMHO. Flaunting manufacturers recommendations and recommending by publication of blind substitutions could possibly get some people hurt, and others sued.
Lost
Last edited by lostknife4 on Fri May 09, 2014 6:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Cheddite CX2000 primers

Postby BT Justice » Fri May 09, 2014 3:16 am

As was mentioned above a lot of the differences depend on loading style and technique. I can't stress enough a very loose, ill fitting load is almost as bad as one that is overstuffed and over compressed. There is a middle ground and with time most people find it, just tight enough but not to tight.

Here's an example of what happens when a load is over compressed by just using extra spacers. This was an experiment we did to see how tight we could go on a load and what the effects would be, I'll just give the chrono results as the pressures were all safe except for the last over compressed figure which went into the high 14,000 psi range.

This is a 3" 1 1/4 oz steel load in a Federal 3" hull, all are identical except for the last that had an extra 1/4" spacer in it and was highly compressed at the final crimp station.

1489 fps
1452 fps
1489 fps
1474 fps
1608 fps...overstuffed load with extra spacer

I wasn't trying to get any extra performance from the original load as it's consistent enough, we just wanted to see what would happen if we packed the hull as tight as we could with a heavy steel shot load and the dangers of it.
We only had to shoot one round to know it wasn't a great idea, but it showed how loading technique can and does affect your reloads, sometimes in very negative ways.
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Re: Cheddite CX2000 primers

Postby Quacker-Wacker » Fri May 09, 2014 6:05 am

lostknife4 wrote:The Ched CARTON doesn't indicate which they are but on the back of the 100 pack CARD it will tell you. Mine are marked CX2000.

You are correct sir. It say's CX2000 on the back of each 100pack. Thanks! :thumbsup:
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Re: Cheddite CX2000 primers

Postby lostknife4 » Fri May 09, 2014 6:35 am

We Pilots have a saying: Learn from the mistakes of others because you won't live long enough to make them all yourself !!!
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Re: Cheddite CX2000 primers

Postby Beretta06 » Fri May 09, 2014 9:24 am

I called RSI about a month ago and asked if the cheddite primer could be subbed for two particular loads and they said absolutely. In fact he went onto tell me that RSI endorsed the sub for all their loads. Which worked for me. So far it seems that there is no real difference as I have loaded and tested both. So when B.P.had a sale on 3" primed cheddite hulls with the cheddite primer. I went for 600 and flat rate shipping. It's nice to start fresh 2 loads in different 2 different colored hulls is very nice! I like the cheddite hulls they load real easy. Even though the hulls are brand new they crimp like warm butter. Using 1-1/16 oz #3s @1710 and 1-1/8oz #2s @ 1635

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Re: Cheddite CX2000 primers

Postby lostknife4 » Fri May 09, 2014 9:47 am

Beretta06 wrote:I called RSI about a month ago and asked if the cheddite primer could be subbed for two particular loads and they said absolutely. In fact he went onto tell me that RSI endorsed the sub for all their loads. Which worked for me. So far it seems that there is no real difference as I have loaded and tested both. So when B.P.had a sale on 3" primed cheddite hulls with the cheddite primer. I went for 600 and flat rate shipping. It's nice to start fresh 2 loads in different 2 different colored hulls is very nice! I like the cheddite hulls they load real easy. Even though the hulls are brand new they crimp like warm butter. Using 1-1/16 oz #3s @1710 and 1-1/8oz #2s @ 1635

Dwight


My experience with new Ched hulls and crimping, both fold and roll so far have been excellent. Colours are a great way to segregate loads except when it's dark out.... LOL I use roll crimps for my TSS fold for Steel, works when in my pocket or in the dark for me!!!
Lost

This is BPI's answer to my query about this primer substitution question:

"There is no such thing as a direct substitute when it comes to shotshell components. Any change to a recipe will change the pressure and velocity to a certain degree.

The W209 and CH209 have shown to be efficient in the same style of loads. However the CH209 does burn hotter. Depending on the propellant and load being utilized, you can see drastic changes when swapping these primers. You can call one of our Techs toll free at 888.273.5623 if you have additional questions, but BPI does not recommend primer substitution.

-Jonathan


Ballistic Products, Inc.
tel: 763-494-9237
fax: 763-494-9236
sales: 888-273-5623

"

Question submitted:
Sent: Thursday, May 08, 2014 4:51 PM
To: info@ballisticproducts.com
Subject: Ch209 vs Win209

A lot of my loadings are using Win 209 and the Ch209 are cheaper….. cheap guy lol

What besides being Ø.001 “ larger in dia are the differences in these primers.

Do they have identical brisance, burn speed, calorific output, etc

Are they a direct substitute or are they just close? Close enough?

Thanks,

Lost
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Re: Cheddite CX2000 primers

Postby lostknife4 » Fri May 09, 2014 11:35 am

Jon Bergren wrote:Dr. Samuelson CEO of RSI recommended Cheddite Primers for W209. I found they gave the same velocities in the RSI recipes. Ned S


Seems to be a discrepancy here in information exchange Ned, perhaps Jon Samuelson could give you that in writing and you can post his response.
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Re: Cheddite CX2000 primers

Postby Beretta06 » Fri May 09, 2014 11:46 am

I understand what they are saying completely. However I am not a BP fan. I have placed a few calls with questions to them. In general they seem very unenthusiastic about helping me out. One time in particular a load was printed as
3.5" federal hull
Fed 209A
45 grains steel
1-BPGS gas seal
1-MM1230 wad
1-1/4 OZ steel
13300 p.s.i
1615fps

No card fillers or felt spacers

Now if you put this together as published its not even close. It's lacking a 2nd gas seal or spacers. So. My simple question was to them which is missing. After several different reps no diffinitive answer, so I asked can I stack another gas seal on the on top of the 1st one without any major pressure changes. Silence was the answer. Then I guess. In somewhat of a hesatent question formed answer. My response was pretty much full of four lettered words. It is beyond me how you can be in the business of self proclaimed reloading guru. And not have the staff to answer a simple question. In a reasonable amount of time, Or offer to take my number and find the answer and call back. Rather sit there in silence and hope I go away. As far as data goes I wouldn't use it.

In contrast I call RSI and I ask a primer substitute question W209 with CH209 and get an immidiate responce. After testing we found no significant difference between the two in our data.

Obviously RSI tested the swap before hand, I highly dout that you would say yes to that question unless they did. Obviously lives would be on the line.

I would assume they did this when it was difficult to find W209s

I've called RSI on a few occasions and to fair to B.P. I did find one RSI rep a few years back an ass. but my question was answered diffinitively.

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Re: Cheddite CX2000 primers

Postby lostknife4 » Fri May 09, 2014 1:46 pm

Beretta06 wrote:I've called RSI on a few occasions and to fair to B.P. I did find one RSI rep a few years back an ass. but my question was answered diffinitively.

Dwight


Answered in writing on company letterhead ??????
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Re: Cheddite CX2000 primers

Postby Beretta06 » Fri May 09, 2014 1:53 pm

lostknife4 wrote:
Beretta06 wrote:I've called RSI on a few occasions and to fair to B.P. I did find one RSI rep a few years back an ass. but my question was answered diffinitively.

Dwight


Answered in writing on company letterhead ??????
Lost


Ha ha nope, but I believe I'm now on a new mission. I'll see if I can get at least an email reply! :huh:

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Re: Cheddite CX2000 primers

Postby BT Justice » Sat May 10, 2014 3:46 am

lostknife4 wrote:
Beretta06 wrote:I've called RSI on a few occasions and to fair to B.P. I did find one RSI rep a few years back an ass. but my question was answered diffinitively.

Dwight


Answered in writing on company letterhead ??????
Lost

Your having fun with this aren't you......... :wink:
First rule of reloading is don't believe everything that is published is going to turn out the way they say it will, second rule is use several different data sources, somewhere in the compilation of data something will work correctly.
This has been very true in what we have found also>>>>
The W209 and CH209 have shown to be efficient in the same style of loads. However the CH209 does burn hotter. Depending on the propellant and load being utilized, you can see drastic changes when swapping
The Cheddite CX2000 primers have given us 50-80 fps higher velocities in the same load than the Blue Box Winchester primers, while velocity spreads have been pretty much the same with both primers.
I don't know if things have changed or not but RSI did not do the original testing of their loads, they may now I'm not sure.
Original testing and much of the tweaking/reworking/design however you want to put it was done by Ballistic Research which is Tom Armbrust's company. Your not going to find to many other folks in the shotgun world more knowledgeable about shotgun ballistics than Tom.
I originally spoke with Tom when the white box Winchester primers were phased out and the new Blue Box primers came on the market, basically because we weren't getting the same results we did with the new primers. He told me that they were getting similar results when using STEEL powder, which was much poorer and erratic ignition.
Back then, Activ was using the Cheddite primers in many of their loads and RSI had several Activ hull STEEL powder loads.
My opinion is since the results with the newer Winchester primers were so much poorer than with the older White Box primers, RSI may have figured out the Cheddite primers where a bit hotter and gave better ignition than the newer Winchester primers and why they recommend them as a substitute.
Just an educated guess.
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Re: Cheddite CX2000 primers

Postby Beretta06 » Sat May 10, 2014 9:05 am

Sure In having fun with it! This what I do for fun it's my release from the stress pressure I seem to eat at work. Anything duck hunting. But I do get irritated when you call the publisher of Data ask a question and get basically uhhhh.....duhhhh.... I duno. And sit there on the other end of the phone quiet which basically says I'm not willing to help. Maybe the BP rep was having a bad day. But there's other issues on a couple other loads. That leads me to believe they don't know a whole lot about what they publish. It seems a lot of their loads get exspensive because the parts they stack are costly. Rsi seems to be on top of their crap. They know each individual load. It gives me more confidence in their product. I did call rsi yesterday it was 3ish west coast time so they were out for the weekend by then. But I did leave a measage to see off they had supplemental data or what recommend the swap in writing. The question has been raised by lost. So it's made me curious aswell.



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Re: Cheddite CX2000 primers

Postby Jon Bergren » Sat May 10, 2014 10:13 am

Jonmac also checked my use of Cheddites in place of W209 and they were right on. Last fall Jonmac sent me a PM saying the latest Bluebox of W209's were back to where they were suppose to be pressure and velocity wise with STEEL powder. Ned S
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Re: Cheddite CX2000 primers

Postby steelshotshooter » Sat May 10, 2014 11:09 am

BPI also says that the Ched209 primer is a direct replacement for the Federal 209A primer and that they can be interchanged between loads. Is this true???

Me personally, I only use the exact primer that is listed for each specific load....
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Re: Cheddite CX2000 primers

Postby lostknife4 » Sat May 10, 2014 11:31 am

steelshotshooter wrote:BPI also says that the Ched209 primer is a direct replacement for the Federal 209A primer and that they can be interchanged between loads. Is this true???

Me personally, I only use the exact primer that is listed for each specific load....


NO !

Read the above response from BPI to my question about primer interchanges.
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Re: Cheddite CX2000 primers

Postby Beretta06 » Sat May 10, 2014 11:47 am

lostknife4 wrote:
steelshotshooter wrote:BPI also says that the Ched209 primer is a direct replacement for the Federal 209A primer and that they can be interchanged between loads. Is this true???

Me personally, I only use the exact primer that is listed for each specific load....


NO !

Read the above response from BPI to my question about primer interchanges.
Lost


There is no way you could sub a cheddite for a fed 209a. Worse would be to sub the 209a for the cheddite! As the fed is considerably hotter.

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Re: Cheddite CX2000 primers

Postby lostknife4 » Sat May 10, 2014 12:28 pm

steelshotshooter wrote:BPI also says that the Ched209 primer is a direct replacement for the Federal 209A primer and that they can be interchanged between loads. Is this true???

Me personally, I only use the exact primer that is listed for each specific load....


I think maybe Steelshooter had better go back to whomever he was talking with that told him that and get it in writing or an email answer from BPI and post it on here. Odds on you don't get it..... so what is that kind of advice worth?
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