#5 steel shot

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Re: #5 steel shot

Postby goosepit2007 » Thu Jul 24, 2014 5:27 pm

mudpack wrote:
hamernhonkers wrote:.. hope is it will kill up to mallard sized birds out to 30 yards max!

If your gun/choke gives good patterns with this load, and you can center the bird in that pattern, it will kill mallards out to 30 yards. NO MORE THAN THAT...no matter what you "elevation" might be.



mudpack...5's work great for mallards out to the same 38 yards as snows that i have tested with ranged birds...but i will say that when the birds get to 4o yard mark they come down but are still alive but sicker then heck... it is surprising on how well the smaller shot works ...both wings are broke neck folds under some but not all times the cart will over and over tell they hit the ground...

5's work best at 1500 to 1550 fps...but even at 1450 fps they get to true 33 yards with drt results with body hits...no head neck strikes...

my buddies shoot 6 shot of steel all the time when they hunt with us with good results too...but i set my lowest size shot to be 5's. heck i have killed ducks with 7 steel at out to 25 yards....and they are only going 1300 fps...cripple loads that i forgot to take out after going after honkers that swam away and got out to far in the lakes/reservoirs for the dogs...

4's at 1275 fps is the same for yardages as the 1450 fps of 5's....which we have found to be 33 yards for body hits only with actual ranged birds(no guessing) for drt results...alot of people shoot those remington 11/4 loads in 23/4inch hulls in nitro mag whihc they are right at the 1275 fps average...

here is a pattern of one of the loads that i use with 5's which is 7/8 oz load going 1550 fps at 40 yards:
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Re: #5 steel shot

Postby 3200 man » Thu Jul 24, 2014 8:24 pm

Shotshell Ballistics Software tells us at 1550 fps 5 shot is good to 35 yds with 1.28" of penetration !
It would be nice if someone could tell us what each pellets energy would be a 575 fps ? with steel shot !
It also would be interesting to know how many body hits it would take to knock a bird down at this distance ?

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Re: #5 steel shot

Postby mudpack » Thu Jul 24, 2014 8:29 pm

goosepit2007 wrote:4's at 1275 fps is the same for yardages as the 1450 fps of 5's....which we have found to be 33 yards for body hits only with actual ranged birds(no guessing) for drt results...alot of people shoot those remington 11/4 loads in 23/4inch hulls in nitro mag whihc they are right at the 1275 fps average...


Your max range for this load is 33 yards, mine is 30 yards. I'd say we're not so far apart on that aspect.

BTW, my favorite teal load is that NitroMag 2 3/4" by 1 1/4oz of #4 steel you speak of. It's killer on the little ducks, out to about 35 yards. Who knows, it may kill further than that, I just don't take teal shots further than 35 yards.....
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Re: #5 steel shot

Postby kenner » Thu Jul 24, 2014 9:05 pm

But in the article Frank posted, Brezney talked 'bout 18 pellets in the mallard... That's a lotta shot pickin'!! I'd rather have something with the pattern density to kill the little ones and mostly pass through the big ones.
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Re: #5 steel shot

Postby goosepit2007 » Thu Jul 24, 2014 9:26 pm

mudpack wrote:
goosepit2007 wrote:4's at 1275 fps is the same for yardages as the 1450 fps of 5's....which we have found to be 33 yards for body hits only with actual ranged birds(no guessing) for drt results...alot of people shoot those remington 11/4 loads in 23/4inch hulls in nitro mag whihc they are right at the 1275 fps average...


Your max range for this load is 33 yards, mine is 30 yards. I'd say we're not so far apart on that aspect.

BTW, my favorite teal load is that NitroMag 2 3/4" by 1 1/4oz of #4 steel you speak of. It's killer on the little ducks, out to about 35 yards. Who knows, it may kill further than that, I just don't take teal shots further than 35 yards.....


4's going 1275 fps we found that load to give drt kills for snows with body hits to the 33 yard range after that they were crippled still alive but hurting bad(just few yards further than 33 yard ranged) . shots was straight over head shots...all birds was checked for head and neck hits while cleaning.

so for smaller ducks it would be tad futher for drt kills...the field testing that we did included 4's going 1275 fps and found 5's going 1450 fps to have the same results ...i just threw that factory load out there for an example so fellow hunters that have used that load by chance or still does would have something to compare 5 steel shot going 1450 fps...



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Re: #5 steel shot

Postby hamernhonkers » Thu Jul 24, 2014 9:42 pm

Well my shot should be here tomorrow and I hope to have patterns tomorrow night posted up. :)
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Re: #5 steel shot

Postby goosepit2007 » Thu Jul 24, 2014 9:51 pm

3200 man wrote:Shotshell Ballistics Software tells us at 1550 fps 5 shot is good to 35 yds with 1.28" of penetration !
It would be nice if someone could tell us what each pellets energy would be a 575 fps ? with steel shot !
It also would be interesting to know how many body hits it would take to knock a bird down at this distance ?

3200 man


3200 man,

rsi has data for 5 steel going 1375 fps ....at 25 yards has 755 fps.....30 yards 692 fps...35 yards 636 fps ....40 yards 587 fps...not sure if that is correct or not...


i do not go by any programs to come up with loads i get good pattern loads take to field and see what it can do...that is why i do alot of testing in the spring going after snows when get in hot field there is alot of singles and doubles that a guy can range very easy and shoot and mark the bird angle ,load, size shot on duct tape wraped around leg ect..

38 yards is for snow geese that is actually range with lazer range finder then shot right after the yardage is called.
that range when called is right on because they just hang there straight over head above the flyers....right were we put are layouts...


at the 38 yard range they averaged right at 7 ...highest count was right at 10 hits with the load that i posted the pattern of 5's shot at 40 yards with light mod choke..

even at 40 yards they still had right at 3 to 4 hits some up to 5 hits ..they still came straight down with little sailing but once on the ground they were not going any were blood was leaking out bad enough to turn them red were pellets hit even at 40 yard range...that just told me that the energy/penetration was getting on weak side..that was with 1500 to 1550 fps loads of 5's.





hope that this helps

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Re: #5 steel shot

Postby goosepit2007 » Thu Jul 24, 2014 10:00 pm

kenner wrote:But in the article Frank posted, Brezney talked 'bout 18 pellets in the mallard... That's a lotta shot pickin'!! I'd rather have something with the pattern density to kill the little ones and mostly pass through the big ones.



debone the breast meat and soak in water( blood shock/clots soak out) use the cow gut magnets and yu are set... skin and the bones removed ....takes alot of the game taste away from the meat makes for good table fare even none hunters that have not gotten used to wild game...we have people over all the time
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Re: #5 steel shot

Postby 3200 man » Fri Jul 25, 2014 6:23 am

Goose

With #5 steel having 1.28 inches of penetration at 35 yds , if , it's traveling at 700 fps on impact ( with your field testing )
how many of those 3 to 7 pellets go through the breast bone where they live ?

I'm not sure but I'm thinking with less than 7 pellets hitting a large duck or medium goose at this distance , there
would not be enough energy with these 7 pellets ( combined ) to give you more than a 50 % kill rate ? If you're Lucky !
I have shot Teal with 1 oz of 6's ( factory ) with a IM choke and it does a fair job but when the bird gets past 35 yds ,
the cripple rate goes way-up , if the bird is going away !
I do see a benefit ( for some use ) on Teal or Doves , though ! :thumbsup:

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Re: #5 steel shot

Postby Frank Lopez » Fri Jul 25, 2014 8:52 am

kenner wrote:But in the article Frank posted, Brezney talked 'bout 18 pellets in the mallard...


While I'd expect a higher pellet count with smaller shot, I wouldn't get too wrapped up in that aspect of the article. Like most Brezny articles, the data supplied is relatively incomplete. What we know is that it was shot at 35 yards at a pinned (stationary) duck. We don't know the velocity of the load or the choke used. Still, if you can get 18 pellets on the bird, you're doing something right.

But, to me, the most amazing part of the article is the gel penetration tests! Again, using the data he supplies in the article, he says that there was 3 inches of penetration at 35 yards! THREE INCHES! According to JJ Mac's article on penetration, the #5 steel pellet would have to be traveling at 700fps just to get the minimum penetration of about 1.28 inches!

I've seen other test results of penetration at range that also contradict what the programs predict. Some are really interesting. To the point that I'm beginning to think we need to rethink (or at least empirically revise) those ballistics programs with respect to shotgun loads.

Frank
I feel slightly sorry for a man who has never patterned his gun, who has no idea how far his chosen load will retain killing penetration. But I'm extremely sorry for the ducks he shoots at beyond the killing range of his gun and load - Bob Brister
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Re: #5 steel shot

Postby Jon Bergren » Fri Jul 25, 2014 11:01 am

Frank Lopez wrote:
kenner wrote:But in the article Frank posted, Brezney talked 'bout 18 pellets in the mallard...


While I'd expect a higher pellet count with smaller shot, I wouldn't get too wrapped up in that aspect of the article. Like most Brezny articles, the data supplied is relatively incomplete. What we know is that it was shot at 35 yards at a pinned (stationary) duck. We don't know the velocity of the load or the choke used. Still, if you can get 18 pellets on the bird, you're doing something right.

But, to me, the most amazing part of the article is the gel penetration tests! Again, using the data he supplies in the article, he says that there was 3 inches of penetration at 35 yards! THREE INCHES! According to JJ Mac's article on penetration, the #5 steel pellet would have to be traveling at 700fps just to get the minimum penetration of about 1.28 inches!

I've seen other test results of penetration at range that also contradict what the programs predict. Some are really interesting. To the point that I'm beginning to think we need to rethink (or at least empirically revise) those ballistics programs with respect to shotgun loads.

Frank


Penetration in what? Also Brezny is making a good living doing my hobbies. Ned S
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Re: #5 steel shot

Postby lukepaige » Fri Jul 25, 2014 12:48 pm

I bought a case of those rem 1 1/4 oz #4's in 2004 and used them with dismal results. I used to hunt very small potholes in the marsh of coastal louisiana. We're talking 25-35yd shots. Damn near every bird shot was a cripple and required water swatting. Never figured that one out, the shot just didn't penetrate. I shoot 4's now at 1600 fps and the ducks crumple out to about 35 yds although I prefer 3's as an all around load.
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Re: #5 steel shot

Postby zpstl321 » Fri Jul 25, 2014 12:48 pm

Frank,

I have done a little ballistic testing and I may be able to help with the penetration issue. There are two types of Gel used in testing, 20% and 10%. Many of the people testing use the 20% mix because it doesn't require refrigeration and monitoring temperatures to 35-38 degrees. The issue with this is that only replicates large human muscles, such as those found in the upper leg. You'llnot find tissue like that or of that size in a duck. :)

The 10% gel would be a better mix for testing as it replicates organ tissue, such as kidneys, or spleen tissue. It is so close your can see identical spiral fracturing, and splitting of the tissue and gel.

Next is the issue of lung tissue. If you have ever examined lungs that have been shot you know they offer up almost no resistance to projectiles and can be easily mashed between your fingers. You can pretty much thing of them as a stack of plastic bags filled with air. With this knowledge look at a duck and think about how think the meat is where your shot hit. With a wing up on a side view there is little offered up to stop the pellets. Once you break the skin and go through a very small muscle one would expect the pellet to lodge against the off side ribs.

There is another factor that offers up confusion in that skin stretches when unrestricted. This means when the projectile hits the on side you see very little stretch, but on the off side breaking thru it can equal many inches of penetration in muscle tissue. In some animals it can be as much as 12"-14" of penetration.

The above is only as few of the things that must be considered and analyzed.
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Re: #5 steel shot

Postby J J Mac » Fri Jul 25, 2014 1:20 pm

J J Mac comments in red
Frank Lopez wrote:
kenner wrote:But in the article Frank posted, Brezney talked 'bout 18 pellets in the mallard...


While I'd expect a higher pellet count with smaller shot, I wouldn't get too wrapped up in that aspect of the article. Like most Brezny articles, the data supplied is relatively incomplete. What we know is that it was shot at 35 yards at a pinned (stationary) duck. We don't know the velocity of the load or the choke used. Still, if you can get 18 What I read said 11 pellets on the bird, you're doing something right.

But, to me, the most amazing part of the article is the gel penetration tests! Again, using the data he supplies in the article, he says that there was 3 inches of penetration at 35 yards! THREE INCHES! According to JJ Mac's article on penetration, the #5 steel pellet would have to be traveling at 700fps just to get the minimum penetration of about 1.28 inches! I also noticed the 3 inches of penetration and googled the Perma Gel penetration test media. It is not gelatin. Of course, it is only one data point without any comparison to similar penetration data in that media with other shot sizes and was probably not calibrated with a BB using a gun with known and fixed muzzle velocity as specified for gelatin. Furthermore, I read on article which said that this gel simulated 10% gelatin vs the 20% gelatin data I think is used in Shotshell Ballistics. I don't know if this is true or not but if it is it would give much different results than 20% gelatin. Furthermore, Brezny did not give the velocity that the #5 pellet was traveling when it impacted the test medium and the distance was not specified for the gel penetration test even though Brezny said the pinned ducks were at 35 yd..

I've seen other test results of penetration at range that also contradict what the programs predict. Some are really interesting. I would like to read these results. Please list the references. To the point that I'm beginning to think we need to rethink (or at least empirically revise) those ballistics programs with respect to shotgun loads. I can't believe you are drawing this conclusion on this very incomplete and statistically invalid work by Brezny.

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Re: #5 steel shot

Postby Frank Lopez » Fri Jul 25, 2014 2:32 pm

J J Mac wrote:J J Mac comments in red
Frank Lopez wrote:
kenner wrote:But in the article Frank posted, Brezney talked 'bout 18 pellets in the mallard...


While I'd expect a higher pellet count with smaller shot, I wouldn't get too wrapped up in that aspect of the article. Like most Brezny articles, the data supplied is relatively incomplete. What we know is that it was shot at 35 yards at a pinned (stationary) duck. We don't know the velocity of the load or the choke used. Still, if you can get 18 What I read said 11 pellets on the bird, you're doing something right.


I was quoting kenner.

J J Mac wrote:J J Mac comments in redBut, to me, the most amazing part of the article is the gel penetration tests! Again, using the data he supplies in the article, he says that there was 3 inches of penetration at 35 yards! THREE INCHES! According to JJ Mac's article on penetration, the #5 steel pellet would have to be traveling at 700fps just to get the minimum penetration of about 1.28 inches! I also noticed the 3 inches of penetration and googled the Perma Gel penetration test media. It is not gelatin. Of course, it is only one data point without any comparison to similar penetration data in that media with other shot sizes and was probably not calibrated with a BB using a gun with known and fixed muzzle velocity as specified for gelatin. Furthermore, I read on article which said that this gel simulated 10% gelatin vs the 20% gelatin data I think is used in Shotshell Ballistics. I don't know if this is true or not but if it is it would give much different results than 20% gelatin. Furthermore, Brezny did not give the velocity that the #5 pellet was traveling when it impacted the test medium and the distance was not specified for the gel penetration test even though Brezny said the pinned ducks were at 35 yd..


Agreed. I believe that I even cautioned in my first post that since it was Brezny and was full of ambiguities it should be taken with a grain of salt.

J J Mac wrote:J J Mac comments in redI've seen other test results of penetration at range that also contradict what the programs predict. Some are really interesting. I would like to read these results. Please list the references.


There's a recent Field and Stream article which claims testing by an independent lab (Nilo Farms, IIRC) that tested down range penetration on ballistic gel of two different Winchester BB loads. One load, Xperts (1550fps) and the other Dryloks (1300fps). The results showed penetration of 5 inches for the Dryloks and 5 1/8 inches for the Xperts. There may be a valid explaination here in that the Drylok pellets are much more uniform and spherical and would therefore retain velocity better and have better penetration. But, plugging the data into a program, such as Lowry's, would reveal some very different predictions than were actually observed. There was also another test, again by Brezny, so keep that in mind, with Winchester BlindSide Hex shot in #2, 1400fps MV. The finding was that "penetration was about the same as standard #2 steel". Again, given the ballistic coefficient of a hexagonal shaped projectile that tumbles randomly, not something you'd expect. In another F&S test, this one done at Federal Ammunition's high tech range, Black Cloud BBs in 3 and 3 1/2 inch loadings were pitted against one another. The long shell had a velocity of 1500fps and the 3 inch had a 1450fps MV. Granted, not much of a difference, both loads penetrated to the same depth! A little more searching will reveal other similar tests with similar results. Furthermore, high speed photography of shot patterns in flight are very interesting to observe.

J J Mac wrote:J J Mac comments in redTo the point that I'm beginning to think we need to rethink (or at least empirically revise) those ballistics programs with respect to shotgun loads. I can't believe you are drawing this conclusion on this very incomplete and statistically invalid work by Brezny.


Again, I agree that the work is statistically invalid and that it is by Brezny, so it is somewhat questionable. However, I also believe that you are reading too much into thing to suggest that I'm basing things on a single article. Ballistics Coefficients are typically established computationally. That number is then revised after several test firings and observations to arrive at a reliable number. To my knowledge, ballistics programs use the same BC when dealing with shotgun pellets. This may be a big mistake. Lowry observed that things weren't happening exactly as predicted with steel shot, so he revised the tables basing his work on 7/8 inch steel balls (IIRC). Still, the data was based on single projectiles, not pellets flying in a swarm. That swarm and the way the pattern blooms may have some effect on the pressure wave in front of the shot swarm.

Frank
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Re: #5 steel shot

Postby solway gunner » Fri Jul 25, 2014 3:47 pm

Frank,
Why not do your own penetration gel test?or anyone for that matter.Its not difficult or complex and there are easy guides online which cover the simple manufacturing process.
You can then transfer your gel test data and compare it to your field data ,this can be made easy too if you are decoying as you will have a very good idea of the ranges you are killing.Then collate the two together to reach your conclusion on the shot size in question.
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Re: #5 steel shot

Postby 3200 man » Fri Jul 25, 2014 4:34 pm

3200 man wrote:Goose

With #5 steel having 1.28 inches of penetration at 35 yds , if , it's traveling at 700 fps on impact ( with your field testing )
how many of those 3 to 7 pellets go through the breast bone where they live ?

I'm not sure but I'm thinking with less than 7 pellets hitting a large duck or medium goose at this distance , there
would not be enough energy with these 7 pellets ( combined ) to give you more than a 50 % kill rate ? If you're Lucky !
I have shot Teal with 1 oz of 6's ( factory ) with a IM choke and it does a fair job but when the bird gets past 35 yds ,
the cripple rate goes way-up , if the bird is going away !
I do see a benefit ( for some use ) on Teal or Doves , though ! :thumbsup:

3200 man


Frank

Maybe you can answer these questions ?
Larry
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Re: #5 steel shot

Postby lostknife4 » Fri Jul 25, 2014 5:14 pm

Jesse did you give up on the TSS #9's ?
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Re: #5 steel shot

Postby hamernhonkers » Fri Jul 25, 2014 5:27 pm

lostknife4 wrote:Jesse did you give up on the TSS #9's ?
Lost

Oh Heck no. Its just that a good season for me can be upwards of 500+ rounds or more so I am looking for the best of each for every situation I may find myself in.

I have 200 rounds of steel 4's loaded, 150 rounds of steel 3's, 200 rounds of hw13 6 shot, and 100 rounds of hw15 6 shot so far. I still have hw15 7 shot, steel 5 shot and TSS 7 and 9 shot left to load.

Hell I am just having fun with this. Next is the 32 gauge. :wink:
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Re: #5 steel shot

Postby goosepit2007 » Fri Jul 25, 2014 6:48 pm

3200 man wrote:Goose

With #5 steel having 1.28 inches of penetration at 35 yds , if , it's traveling at 700 fps on impact ( with your field testing )
how many of those 3 to 7 pellets go through the breast bone where they live ?

I'm not sure but I'm thinking with less than 7 pellets hitting a large duck or medium goose at this distance , there
would not be enough energy with these 7 pellets ( combined ) to give you more than a 50 % kill rate ? If you're Lucky !
I have shot Teal with 1 oz of 6's ( factory ) with a IM choke and it does a fair job but when the bird gets past 35 yds ,
the cripple rate goes way-up , if the bird is going away !
I do see a benefit ( for some use ) on Teal or Doves , though ! :thumbsup:

3200 man


the kill ratio of tested birds within those yardages was way over 50 percent for drt most all of them were dead in air right after the shot...that testing was an eye opener...sometime you should try it when you get chance to range the birds then shoot them computers do not tell all...


the inside cavity(guts) of the snow geese was blood soaked (pellets did get into the cavity with ease)and they fell drt no movement at all ....plenty of damage was done...at 4o yards some of pellets made there way into chest cavity others stopped at there breast bone, even with all the pellets not making it into chest cavity the wings was inorperatable breast was blood soaked(feathers were red) the birds tried to get away from the dogs but could barely move let alone pick there heads up....these are straight over head shots full breast view most all snows had one if not both wings broke...the 5's if shot at those yardages of 33 yards with 1450 fps an d1500 to 1550 fps loads at 38 yards had more then enough energy/pellet penetration and showed it in the field...the pellet count in 7/8 oz loads of 5's which is right at 215 pellets....when using 1oz loads and 11/8 loads of 5's the pellet strikes went way up and way over kill for the way that we hunt ducks and geese for that matter...i found the 7/8 oz load to be enough pellet count/pattern density.

if you move the shot forward the kill distance is way further but that is not always the case when in real hunting situations...these were single birds that i forced my self to try and not hit the head/neck area so i could get true field results. whihc is actual penetration of shot at a given fps...this info is way better then any computer program.

and not pinned birds to post ect...if i would have shot normal the pellets numbers are way higher when i swing through and pull the trigger at neck then you end up with pellet strikes in head/neck,chest wings broke... plus complete penetration into chest cavity(if distance is within what we have found to be true). even if have no head/neck hits!

it took all of 3 days way back in the day and we had this all figured out with real true hunting distances..actually ranged not a guess and then from that time on we have been enjoying shooting teal too mallards), even honkers that sneak in too and are in your face... when we test loads/shot sizes we try and force are selfs to get body hits which is hard to get brain to go away from the way that i was taught to shoot which is for head/neck area...


but i will say that 5 shot is not for guys that think they need to shoot at every duck that comes or looks at decoys...and or has very hard time actually knowing the yardage of the birds...3's and or 2's would be better fit...but on other hand 38 yards is along ways out there for most duck/goose hunters shooting ability anyway..





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Re: #5 steel shot

Postby J J Mac » Fri Jul 25, 2014 7:04 pm

Frank Lopez wrote:Again, I agree that the work is statistically invalid and that it is by Brezny, so it is somewhat questionable. However, I also believe that you are reading too much into thing to suggest that I'm basing things on a single article. Ballistics Coefficients are typically established computationally. That number is then revised after several test firings and observations to arrive at a reliable number. To my knowledge, ballistics programs use the same BC when dealing with shotgun pellets. This may be a big mistake. Lowry observed that things weren't happening exactly as predicted with steel shot, so he revised the tables basing his work on 7/8 inch steel balls (IIRC). Still, the data was based on single projectiles, not pellets flying in a swarm. That swarm and the way the pattern blooms may have some effect on the pressure wave in front of the shot swarm.

Frank

Are you saying that Ballistic Coefficients for bullets are used for shotshell pellets? Ballistic Coefficients have several different definitions. Please define the Ballistic Coefficient you are talking about in blue above so we can discuss further. Here is a link that does a pretty good job of defining the different Ballistic Coefficients.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ballistic_coefficient This link has been corrected to direct to the proper article.

Here is a link that gives info on Ballistic Coefficients also. http://www.exteriorballistics.com/ebexplained/5th/221.cfm
Please define the Ballistic Coefficient you are talking about as described in the first article being as specific as possible.
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Re: #5 steel shot

Postby kenner » Fri Jul 25, 2014 8:05 pm

From Brezny article, section Ducks In The Corn: "Pellet counts were high, with one bird retaining 18 pellets in the body...."
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Re: #5 steel shot

Postby J J Mac » Fri Jul 25, 2014 8:14 pm

kenner wrote:From Brezny article, section Ducks In The Corn: "Pellet counts were high, with one bird retaining 18 pellets in the body...."

OK. In the section on shooting pinned dead mallards the article said 11 pellets in the bird at 35 yd.
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Re: #5 steel shot

Postby kenner » Fri Jul 25, 2014 11:02 pm

Thank you.

I'm confused.... Ned's gotten ripped over the years for shooting #4s; one of my posts, people are advocating #1s; now we're talking #5s....
I would fear that the new hunter, non-reloader would head to the field with a box of #6 steel. A buddy of mine was shooting slow steel #4 at phez and wounding birds, barely.
Whereas, my 7/8oz, #4 steel loads @ 1700 fps are actually overkill, in my situation.

So many variables. :beer:
Last edited by kenner on Sat Jul 26, 2014 8:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
kenner
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Re: #5 steel shot

Postby Jon Bergren » Sat Jul 26, 2014 6:26 am

kenner wrote:Thank you.

I'm confused.... Ned's gotten ripped over the years for shooting #4s; one of my posts, people are advocating #1s; now we're talking #5s....
I would fear that the new hunter, non-reloader would head to the field with a box of #6 steel. A buddy of mine was shooting slow steel #4 at phez and wounding birds, barely.
Whereas, my 7/8oz steel loads @ 1700 fps are actually overkill, in my situation.

So many variables. :beer:


:thumbsup: Ned S
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