Hevi metal

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Re: Hevi metal

Postby Yuchi1 » Fri Aug 01, 2014 2:31 pm

On the X wrote:Frank, starting a month from today I will be shooting doves twice a week thru the season which is so much better than two days of controlled clays of any variety, wingshooting is not one of my weaknesses.

Yuchi, regular steel will get it done at 30- , 30 and 30+ sure and I've been shooting steel since '88. But at all these ranges steel over the years has slammed ducks to the water many many many times just to require follow up shots. My three years experience shooting HM has showed more ducks not requiring follow ups. I know everyone loves a good debate but have you made it your purpose in life to "save" the world from the evils of EMI? Obviously theres enough of us satisfied with their products, based on performance not advertisement to keep us using it. What is the exact load you use? I'm pretty sure neagatives can be found in it as well, yet you would never find me running it down to you, as it would be a total waste of my time doing so, as running down HM to me is a total waste of your time.


Am not "running down" HM, rather, just stating (IMO) what it is...a spreader load, that can be of benefit for <30 yards for "average waterfowlers", as Frank stated above.

IF...as you stated above, "wingshooting is not one of my weaknesses", and, taking you at your word and then with, "steel over the years has slammed ducks to the water many many many times just to require follow up shots" would indicate a lack of pattern work to ascertain that your particular gun/choke/load is rendering an effective pattern, which is the fault of the shooter and not the ordnance employed.

Thus, the bloom effect created by HM loads may well (within ~30 yards) may somewhat compensate for not only wingshot challenged shooters but also the lazy ones as well.
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Re: Hevi metal

Postby On the X » Fri Aug 01, 2014 3:09 pm

Wow, yuchi, I'm / we are either below average shooters or lazy hunters? I've been patterning my loads since I was a kid. Mydad was given a stack of Formica sheets and I soon found them worth shooting at much to his dislike. You can deny that steel doesn't cripple hard hit birds all you want, but if you have shot as many birds as you claim then you know its true. Steel always has and always will. Even for experts and the non lazy as yourself.
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Re: Hevi metal

Postby lostknife4 » Fri Aug 01, 2014 4:40 pm

Is it:
Convince a man against his will ; he's of the same opinion still ....
or
Don't confuse me with facts; my minds already made up....
or both......LOL
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Re: Hevi metal

Postby On the X » Fri Aug 01, 2014 5:18 pm

lostknife4 wrote:Is it:
Convince a man against his will ; he's of the same opinion still ....
or
Don't confuse me with facts; my minds already made up....
or both......LOL
Lost

Lost, the facts that I witness in real life duck hunts is that HM kills ducks for me quite well at more than spreader load distances.
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Re: Hevi metal

Postby Frank Lopez » Fri Aug 01, 2014 5:25 pm

On the X wrote:You can deny that steel doesn't cripple hard hit birds all you want, ... Steel always has and always will. Even for experts and the non lazy as yourself.


I can't say as I agree with this. When used within its capabilities, steel is every bit as effective as any other material, be it lead, tungsten, bismuth or whatever. How dead can dead be? But, if you try to expand those capabilities, steel is not as forgiving as the other alternatives. And we won't even discuss the uselessness of duplex loads. :smile:

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Hevi metal

Postby nmbrinkman » Fri Aug 01, 2014 5:34 pm

Has anyone actually tested the "hevi" material in HM to figure it's density? Calling it lighter than steel is fine but density is what matters. My understanding is the hevi is ballistically equal to the steel shot within the shell. Meaning it weighs the same minus the difference in ballistic coefficient (not sure if that's the correct term but you get the picture). Less surface area with equal weight means the "hevi" doesn't have to weigh the same to match ballistics I would guess. Just be more dense. And I think that stays consistent when speaking of penetration as well.
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Re: Hevi metal

Postby On the X » Fri Aug 01, 2014 6:08 pm

Frank Lopez wrote:
On the X wrote:You can deny that steel doesn't cripple hard hit birds all you want, ... Steel always has and always will. Even for experts and the non lazy as yourself.


I can't say as I agree with this. When used within its capabilities, steel is every bit as effective as any other material, be it lead, tungsten, bismuth or whatever. How dead can dead be? But, if you try to expand those capabilities, steel is not as forgiving as the other alternatives. And we won't even discuss the uselessness of duplex loads. :smile:

Frank

WHEN USED WITHIN ITS CAPABILITIES .....which are limited Frank, as any shot material is obviously, but steel is by far not the ideal material. But the cheapest to manufacture.
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Re: Hevi metal

Postby Jmorris » Fri Aug 01, 2014 6:23 pm

I will add my 2 cents here as well. I don't think a lot of hevi-metal or their marketing. I think it's overpriced and a marginal load. Does it work in the decoys? I suppose so most of the time. My patterning experiences are the same as some of the others. Almost all of my 40yd patterns had little to no tungsten in the 30" circle. What point is that as I shoot way better than that. So, I may as well be shooting a super light load with less of a price. I reload to get what i want. I have a case of hevi-metal bb's in the basement and some 2's in the garage. I've gave some to my buddies to shoot while hunting Canadians and they've given it back. I am however going to see if I can grab a box of their marketing ploy "hevi-steel" this weekend to analyze and pattern. Best thing about hevi-metal is picking up all the empties.

I've posted my personal dealings with EMI corporate before and that is one of the reasons I kind of despise them now.

The EMI positive is, I'm very glad I bought several cases of Dead Coyote several years ago. That original stuff is the schiznit and I don't know if anything has changed other than price but I love it.
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Re: Hevi metal

Postby lostknife4 » Fri Aug 01, 2014 7:16 pm

On the X wrote:
lostknife4 wrote:Is it:
Convince a man against his will ; he's of the same opinion still ....
or
Don't confuse me with facts; my minds already made up....
or both......LOL
Lost

Lost, the facts that I witness in real life duck hunts is that HM kills ducks for me quite well at more than spreader load distances.


Since it is a fact that the pseudo tungsten pellets bloom or migrate outside a 30" circle at ranges at or over 40 yards it would appear tha the birds you are shooting at extended ranges are being hit with pellets from the outside of the 30" centre pattern which one could conclude that these spreader loads are hitting birds outside your intended or unintended point of aim since the inner pellets have long since become ineffective.
To conclude then you are either a very good marksman or the bloom has made up for your lack of marksmanship, IMHO
Have you patterned these loads at 30, 40 and 50 yards for pattern density an POI and corresponding POA for those ranges?
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Re: Hevi metal

Postby On the X » Fri Aug 01, 2014 7:36 pm

Lost, as far as my marksmanship is concerned, I can average a limit of doves which was 12 and now 15 out of a box of shells and my personal best is 12 with 16 shells which I've done twice, so I guess I can hold my own. As far as patterning HM.....I pattern at 35 yards as that's all the distance I have but have recently acquired another location which should give me a longer lane. At 35 yards I then determine if I think the pattern will hold for 5 more yards or if its too tight for 30. I've killed ducks at what I estimated to be 50 + yards with HM but I really don't care to shoot at ducks that far so rarely do.
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Re: Hevi metal

Postby gride830 » Fri Aug 01, 2014 7:37 pm

I can't shoot worth a damn, that's why I use HM.

Look I'm not here to change anyone's opinion of anything, but I prefer to use HM. If a case goes up another $30-50 then I'll switch to something else, that's my pinch point. I've patterned everything I've ever shot and at 35 yards, HM patterns don't have holes big enough in them for a duck to survive. Enough said.

It would seem that some people on here think that they will change the minds of many people just by expressing opinions. All I know is that my ducks are deader now than when I use steel and that makes me feel good enough to celebrate with a beer, laughter and stories after the hunt.

I can't eat a paper target that has a good pattern at 40yards.
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Re: Hevi metal

Postby On the X » Fri Aug 01, 2014 8:08 pm

gride830 wrote:I can't shoot worth a damn, that's why I use HM.

Look I'm not here to change anyone's opinion of anything, but I prefer to use HM. If a case goes up another $30-50 then I'll switch to something else, that's my pinch point. I've patterned everything I've ever shot and at 35 yards, HM patterns don't have holes big enough in them for a duck to survive. Enough said.

It would seem that some people on here think that they will change the minds of many people just by expressing opinions. All I know is that my ducks are deader now than when I use steel and that makes me feel good enough to celebrate with a beer, laughter and stories after the hunt.

I can't eat a paper target that has a good pattern at 40yards.

Can't argue with that...........even though some here will try
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Re: Hevi metal

Postby justinduckman7 » Fri Aug 01, 2014 9:01 pm

I will agree with most statements on here about try it for yourself but for me I shoot the 10 ga 13/4 1350 fps bb's out of a browning gold and a extended range patternmaster and it patterns great for me and a buddy of mine shoots the 31/2 2 & bb ou of a Benelli sbe2 and a patternmaster and both achieve excellent patterns .
(IF IT FLIES IT DIES AND IF IT SITS THEIR IT STILL DIES ) Let's go shoot their faces off
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Re: Hevi metal

Postby lostknife4 » Sat Aug 02, 2014 6:32 am

On the X wrote:
gride830 wrote:I can't shoot worth a damn, that's why I use HM.

Look I'm not here to change anyone's opinion of anything, but I prefer to use HM. If a case goes up another $30-50 then I'll switch to something else, that's my pinch point. I've patterned everything I've ever shot and at 35 yards, HM patterns don't have holes big enough in them for a duck to survive. Enough said.

It would seem that some people on here think that they will change the minds of many people just by expressing opinions. All I know is that my ducks are deader now than when I use steel and that makes me feel good enough to celebrate with a beer, laughter and stories after the hunt.

I can't eat a paper target that has a good pattern at 40yards.

Can't argue with that...........even though some here will try


I can't argue with that either.............LOL
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Re: Hevi metal

Postby Yuchi1 » Sat Aug 02, 2014 8:40 am

Jmorris wrote:I will add my 2 cents here as well. I don't think a lot of hevi-metal or their marketing. I think it's overpriced and a marginal load. Does it work in the decoys? I suppose so most of the time. My patterning experiences are the same as some of the others. Almost all of my 40yd patterns had little to no tungsten in the 30" circle. What point is that as I shoot way better than that. So, I may as well be shooting a super light load with less of a price. I reload to get what i want. I have a case of hevi-metal bb's in the basement and some 2's in the garage. I've gave some to my buddies to shoot while hunting Canadians and they've given it back. I am however going to see if I can grab a box of their marketing ploy "hevi-steel" this weekend to analyze and pattern. Best thing about hevi-metal is picking up all the empties. Bet there are scads of them to pick up as well?
I've posted my personal dealings with EMI corporate before and that is one of the reasons I kind of despise them now.

The EMI positive is, I'm very glad I bought several cases of Dead Coyote several years ago. That original stuff is the schiznit and I don't know if anything has changed other than price but I love it.


All I can add to the discussion is the HM Pro Stafffer shills hereabouts are spinning their tales faster than an EF5.
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Re: Hevi metal

Postby Jmorris » Sat Aug 02, 2014 8:54 am

Not with my crew. But I do pick up a bunch of them while hunting in during conservation hunts for snow geese. I probably picked up another 500 3" hevi-metal empties this spring.
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Re: Hevi metal

Postby Frank Lopez » Sat Aug 02, 2014 8:59 am

On the X wrote:WHEN USED WITHIN ITS CAPABILITIES .....which are limited Frank, as any shot material is obviously, but steel is by far not the ideal material. But the cheapest to manufacture.


That's quite true. Still, when you factor in the biggest variable to the load's capabilities, the ability of the shooter to put the pattern where it needs to be, steel isn't so bad. In fact, when a load is properly selected, it's very rare (VERY RARE) that the load doesn't live up to the task.

On the other hand, when we compare a straight steel load to this hybrid hodgepodge, steel (again properly sized and fairly compared) looks mighty good (and for a good bit less money, too! :wink: )

Frank
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Re: Hevi metal

Postby lostknife4 » Sat Aug 02, 2014 9:48 am

Gilded Lily perhaps? And considerably more expensive but then I shoot TSS so what do I know LOL .......
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Re: Hevi metal

Postby Yuchi1 » Sat Aug 02, 2014 10:49 am

Jmorris wrote:Not with my crew. But I do pick up a bunch of them while hunting in during conservation hunts for snow geese. I probably picked up another 500 3" hevi-metal empties this spring.


J,

Was in no way referring to you guys...mea culpa!
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Re: Hevi metal

Postby On the X » Sat Aug 02, 2014 11:50 am

Yuchi1 wrote:
Jmorris wrote:Not with my crew. But I do pick up a bunch of them while hunting in during conservation hunts for snow geese. I probably picked up another 500 3" hevi-metal empties this spring.


J,

Was in no way referring to you guys...mea culpa!

What shell do you use Yuchi?
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Re: Hevi metal

Postby Yuchi1 » Sat Aug 02, 2014 3:20 pm

On the X wrote:
Yuchi1 wrote:
Jmorris wrote:Not with my crew. But I do pick up a bunch of them while hunting in during conservation hunts for snow geese. I probably picked up another 500 3" hevi-metal empties this spring.


J,

Was in no way referring to you guys...mea culpa!


What shell do you use Yuchi?


Handloads, RSI recipe #75 and the "old" Alliant 2 3/4" 1 1/8 oz. load with both using the Remington Nitro hull(s) with the former motoring at 1619FPS/MV & latter at 1642FPS/MV.

If I didn't handload, the Kent Fasteel and/or Winchester Expert in 2 3/4", 1 1/16 oz. factory would be next on the list.
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Re: Hevi metal

Postby shoveler_shooter » Sat Aug 02, 2014 3:48 pm

On the X wrote:You can deny that steel doesn't cripple hard hit birds all you want, but if you have shot as many birds as you claim then you know its true. Steel always has and always will.

Are you serious? Poor shooting and not patterning your gun results in crippled birds, doesn't matter if it's steel, lead, bismuth, tungsten, or a mixture of those. Steel just happens to tend to not produce good patterns as easily as other metals and it might take a little more experimentation than the others.
My group uses Speedshok the most, with some Fiocchi and Nitro Steel. 3" #2s or #1s. When one of us does take the 40-50yd shot, the bird is in a high percentage position such as straight overhead and 9/10 times that bird gets whacked and doesn't get very far at all. Has nothing to do with the type of metal the little BBs are that are flying out of your shotgun.
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Re: Hevi metal

Postby On the X » Sat Aug 02, 2014 4:19 pm

SS, it has a whole hell of a lot to do with what metal the "little BB's" are made of. I'm willing to bet you never shot a duck with lead in your life. I've got a question for ya......whats the main improvement that's been made in steel? I will answer the question for you, its been the increase in MV, which is an ongoing debate in its self if anything over 1400fps makes a damn bit of difference at all. And seeing that for the longest time the average high MV was 1375 FPS, 1400's extra 25FPS is mute.
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Re: Hevi metal

Postby On the X » Sat Aug 02, 2014 4:23 pm

Has nothing to do with the type of metal the little BBs are that are flying out of your shotgun.


How about aluminum shot SS ? No wait, it would have to be the size of marbles.
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Re: Hevi metal

Postby shoveler_shooter » Sat Aug 02, 2014 4:28 pm

On the X wrote:SS, it has a whole hell of a lot to do with what metal the "little BB's" are made of. I'm willing to bet you never shot a duck with lead in your life. I've got a question for ya......whats the main improvement that's been made in steel? I will answer the question for you, its been the increase in MV, which is an ongoing debate in its self if anything over 1400fps makes a damn bit of difference at all. And seeing that for the longest time the average high MV was 1375 FPS, 1400's extra 25FPS is mute.

I've got a question for you...can you even hit a duck consistently past 45-50yds? I'm willing to bet you can't, which means there is no logical reason for shooting heavier density loads, which is the advantage the other metals have over steel.
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