Blindside

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Blindside

Postby tornadochaser » Sat Aug 02, 2014 7:49 am

Figured with all the hevi hate going on it was time to pick on blindside again too...
9mmammo.com and grafs.com have cleared out their blindside stock at significant markdowns. It was tempting to buy some, but personally, I dont think much of square shot even at $95 a case. Grafs appeared to be clearing out all winchester, got a case of 3.5" experts for $110 and some boxes of super pheasant for dirt cheap too.
9mmammo does have 3" Kent's for $120 shipped yet.
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Re: Blindside

Postby Jmorris » Sat Aug 02, 2014 8:07 am

Never had a desire to try it..
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Re: Blindside

Postby Yuchi1 » Sat Aug 02, 2014 8:48 am

A cousin came out from Alabama a couple seasons back with a case of it in 3" #2's.

He shot ~11 mallards during our hunts with the stuff and all but 1 had to be reshot after hitting the water. It knocked them down OK but they were nowhere near dispatched.

When we dressed the first bunch, these hex shaped pellets had penetrated ~1/4" into the bird in the breast areas.

We concluded the main thing that got "blindsided" was his wallet.

IMO, Blindside, Black Cloud, Hevi Metal and now the "new" Hevi Steel are akin to most fishing lures...designed to "catch" the fisherman, not necessarily the fish. :wink:
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Re: Blindside

Postby Joe Hunter » Sat Aug 02, 2014 9:28 am

Here are a few of my pattern numbers to see what the pattern board can tell us about BS.

Patterning results from a 12-gauge 3" Remington 870 Special Purpose with a 28" barrel and factory flush Rem-chokes (pattern average of five, 30" post-shot scribed circle, yardage taped muzzle to target, in-shell pellet count average of five, and true choke constriction from bore gauge).

40 YARDS – Modified flush factory Rem-choke (.018” constriction)

Federal Speed-Shok 3" 1 1/4 oz #2 steel (154 pellets) pattern 115 (75%)
Remington Sportsman Hi-Speed 3" 1 1/4 oz #2 steel (152 pellets) pattern 110 (72%)
Winchester Xpert Hi-Velocity 3" 1 1/4 oz #2 steel (146 pellets) pattern 106 (73%)
Kent Fasteel 3" 1 1/4 oz #2 steel (155 pellets) pattern 103 (66%)
Fiocchi Golden 3” 1 ¼ oz #2 steel (156 pellets) pattern 115 (74%)

Federal Black Cloud 3" 1 1/4 oz #2 steel (144 pellets) pattern 92 (64%)
Hevi-Metal 3" 1 1/4 oz #2 & #5 (164 pellets) pattern 93 (58%)
Winchester Elite Blind Side 3" 1 3/8 oz #2 steel (176 pellets) pattern 104 (59%)

Now you can be the judge.

Good luck.
Last edited by Joe Hunter on Sat Aug 02, 2014 4:45 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Blindside

Postby 10gaOkie » Sat Aug 02, 2014 10:02 am

No matter which you choose, 2 3/4, 3" or 3.5", stick with Kent. You will be birds and money ahead. Kents are loaded with the same components that reloaders use. I use these same components in my reloads giving me the edge I want. Have some will powder and try to resist these new fashionable loads that are advertised so heavily.

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Re: Blindside

Postby curtdawg88 » Sat Aug 02, 2014 10:20 am

Grafs must have sold out already because I don't see any Winchester on their site. I was going to buy a case of xpert for $110
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Re: Blindside

Postby Yuchi1 » Sat Aug 02, 2014 10:53 am

Joe Hunter wrote:Here are a few of my pattern numbers to see what the pattern board can tell us about BS.

Patterning results from a 12-gauge 3" Remington 870 Special Purpose with a 28" barrel and factory flush Rem-chokes (pattern average of five, 30" post-shot scribed circle, yardage taped muzzle to target, in-shell pellet count average of five, and true choke constriction from bore gauge).

40 YARDS – Modified flush factory Rem-choke (.018” constriction)

Federal Speed-Shok 3" 1 1/4 oz #2 steel (154 pellets) pattern 115 (75%)
Remington Sportsman Hi-Speed 3" 1 1/4 oz #2 steel (152 pellets) pattern 110 (72%)
Winchester Xpert Hi-Velocity 3" 1 1/4 oz #2 steel (146 pellets) pattern 106 (73%)

Federal Black Cloud 3" 1 1/4 oz #2 steel (144 pellets) pattern 92 (64%)
Hevi-Metal 3" 1 1/4 oz #2 & #5 (164 pellets) pattern 93 (58%)
Winchester Elite Blind Side 3" 1 3/8 oz #2 steel (176 pellets) pattern 104 (59%)

Now you can be the judge.

Good luck.


Even if the judge was blind, he would be able to see that!
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Re: Blindside

Postby Joe Hunter » Sat Aug 02, 2014 12:04 pm

I added Kents to my above patterning post.
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Re: Blindside

Postby shoveler_shooter » Sat Aug 02, 2014 2:06 pm

10gaOkie wrote:No matter which you choose, 2 3/4, 3" or 3.5", stick with Kent. You will be birds and money ahead. Kents are loaded with the same components that reloaders use. I use these same components in my reloads giving me the edge I want. Have some will powder and try to resist these new fashionable loads that are advertised so heavily.

Chris

For a 12, I like my Speedshok and Nitro Steel (when it's available at a good price). Good patterns from both, and the pattern holds together long enough to cleanly kill birds about as far as I can consistently hit. Nitro Steel used to actually be considered a "premium" steel load before the gimmicks started coming out, along with Winchester Supremes. Overall out of the 12 I get the best patterns from Win Supremes and it is my favorite shell, but can't justify paying the price when I get almost as good performance from Speedshok and Nitro Steel when it's on sale.
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Re: Blindside

Postby Yuchi1 » Sat Aug 02, 2014 3:15 pm

I have limited experience with Fiocchi cartridges (their 3 1/2", 1 9/16 oz. load) and it has generally been favorable. On the "fuge several guys have used them for several seasons and they're the go-to load for them. Prices are often in the Speed-Shok range as well.
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Re: Blindside

Postby Joe Hunter » Sat Aug 02, 2014 4:45 pm

I added Fiocchi to my above patterning post.
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Re: Blindside

Postby z51 » Sat Aug 02, 2014 5:54 pm

I have nowhere near your patterning experience Joe, but Federal Speed Shok 1 1/4 oz always win out of my Carlson mid range.
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Re: Blindside

Postby zpstl321 » Sat Aug 02, 2014 7:33 pm

There are some claims made in this thread that cannot possibly be true.

Here are a few videos for you to watch. Remember reduced penetration mean more effective energy transfer. These videos run the range of slightly less penetration than lead to slightly more.


Hyper
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xs1SzUz ... tfAyqsF6iA

Blind
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CZzbHav ... tfAyqsF6iA

Black Cloud
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CKteNMB ... A&index=13

Hornady Lead
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oOySzex ... tfAyqsF6iA


For those not wanting to watch the videos...

Average penetration at 5 yards was as follows:

Blind Side 8" (maximum penetration with this load was 11")
Hypersonic 11" (maximum penetration with this load was 13")
Black Cloud 14.5" (maximum penetration with this load was 18")
Hornady BB nickle plated Lead Magnum Coyote load 12" (maximum penetration with this load was 16")


You can visually see the difference in energy transfer of each load by watching the block move/react to the impact.
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Re: Blindside

Postby zpstl321 » Sat Aug 02, 2014 7:34 pm

Also note there are two different loads available for Blind Side, 1400 fps and 1700 fps.
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Re: Blindside

Postby derbyacresbob » Sat Aug 02, 2014 8:58 pm

zpstl321 wrote:There are some claims made in this thread that cannot possibly be true.

Remember reduced penetration mean more effective energy transfer.


I would much rather have the pellets go 3/4 of the way or all the way through a duck or goose than have the pellets only go 1/4 of the way into a duck or goose. Shotgun pellets kill by getting good penetration not by energy transfer from pellets that don't penetrate deep into the bird or animal.
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Re: Blindside

Postby Yuchi1 » Sat Aug 02, 2014 10:12 pm

zpstl321 wrote:There are some claims made in this thread that cannot possibly be true.

Here are a few videos for you to watch. Remember reduced penetration mean more effective energy transfer. These videos run the range of slightly less penetration than lead to slightly more.

Not, if the penetration is just beyond the skin versus inside the thoracic cavity.
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Re: Blindside

Postby dakotashooter2 » Sat Aug 02, 2014 11:11 pm

Notice that it is the faster loads that have less pattern density. It's kind of a pick your poison situation. Few pellets with good penetration or many pellets with acceptable penetration. My experience has always been the more pellets I can get in a bird the better chances it comes down dead. 3-4 pellets no matter what the load seems to be the (my) magic number. Single pellet hits (body) even with great penetration seem to end up being long retrieves. As with any other game I want to get pellets into the vitals. As far as energy transfer, hitting something with a bat transfers a lot of energy but sticking it with arrow will probably kill it faster.

I've hunted a few times with guys using the "high performance" shells while I used Remington Nitros. Outside of them knocking down a few birds at ranges further than they needed to be shooting at, I was able to kill as many birds as they did.

Sadly I'm wondering if Nitros are not on their way out also..................
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Re: Blindside

Postby ohio mike » Sat Aug 02, 2014 11:15 pm

Anybody ever shoot Rio's?
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Re: Blindside

Postby zpstl321 » Sun Aug 03, 2014 4:58 am

derbyacresbob wrote:
zpstl321 wrote:There are some claims made in this thread that cannot possibly be true.

Remember reduced penetration mean more effective energy transfer.


I would much rather have the pellets go 3/4 of the way or all the way through a duck or goose than have the pellets only go 1/4 of the way into a duck or goose. Shotgun pellets kill by getting good penetration not by energy transfer from pellets that don't penetrate deep into the bird or animal.


There have been way to many live bird test out to 60 yards that say otherwise to be able to convince people that Blind Side doesn't have enough penetration. I've see test at 50 yards on geese with the slow #2 BS in which the recovered geese had pellets that penetrated a full 8" at this distance. Also, early on the #2 slow version was tested on snow geese and it proved very successful. This load has consistently out performed standard rounds by a great margin.

One of the reason I included the video above was because it shows how the shot deforms upon firing an becomes more round vs round shot fired that becomes more square upon firing. The belief may share about flight characteristics of the two are simply not true. Hard round steel pellets went away many, many years ago. Modern steel shot deforms and does do to prevent harming the bore of your guns and chokes. It is one of the reason they tell you not to use BB from air rifles...It is hard steel.

Bottom line is most of what you read on these forums abut high tech shells simply isn't true. Some is made up and other is people trying to make an uneducated guess about how things work. Not having all of the information needed leads them down the wrong path.
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Re: Blindside

Postby zpstl321 » Sun Aug 03, 2014 5:08 am

dakotashooter2 wrote:Notice that it is the faster loads that have less pattern density...


While this can be true it doesn't have to be and many times the opposite is. I can think of quite a few loads on the market that start with less shot and deliver way more to the target. One company refused for many years to put high payload shells on the market. They did so because all of their research showed they performed worse, not better as most thought. They finally started manufacturing the higher payloads because the market simply could not be educated. To this day if asked they still tell the media high payloads are a bad idea and almost never perform as good as lighter loads combined with proper chokes.

I know of one light factory load that consistently shows pasterns in the high 90% range with open chokes from every gun in which it was tested. :)
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Re: Blindside

Postby zpstl321 » Sun Aug 03, 2014 5:14 am

If people are worried about penetration and want to stick with steel shot they should be buying Black Cloud not regular "round" steel shot. :)
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Re: Blindside

Postby tornadochaser » Sun Aug 03, 2014 8:31 am

curtdawg88 wrote:Grafs must have sold out already because I don't see any Winchester on their site. I was going to buy a case of xpert for $110

Oh yeah they went quick, and they didn't even advertise the clearance.
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Re: Blindside

Postby Yuchi1 » Sun Aug 03, 2014 10:02 am

The regular steel pellets, BS & BC pellets I have examined after being recovered from dead birds, all had retained their original shape.
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Re: Blindside

Postby zpstl321 » Sun Aug 03, 2014 10:11 am

I agree that Black Cloud retain their shape, but the new Blind Side do not. That is the reason they respond to chokes, unlike Black Cloud.
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Re: Blindside

Postby Yuchi1 » Sun Aug 03, 2014 10:33 am

As stated in a previous post, the birds Vance shot with BlindSide (BS) had minimal penetration and the pellets appeared exactly as those did in the unfired shell we cut open to examine how those pellets appeared.

On the other hand, birds recovered that were shot with Black Cloud (BC) at ~30-40 yds. had (in some cases) huge chunks of the breast blown away thus rendering them pretty much gumbo pot candidates. These birds were shot using a Browning Cynergy w/Briley LM & IM tubes and 3 1/2" BC in #4's.

BTW, was alternating shots (w/the BC) with (original) Hevi Steel (3 1/2" in #4's) and the Hevi Steel effectively killed birds farther (50+ yds. & DRT) than the BC loads.

Regular steel pellets have a DPH rating of ~60, wonder what BC & BS are rated at as someone commented on how they deform upon detonation?

The ballistic gelatin pics on Federal's website ( http://www.federalpremium.com/products/ ... cloud.aspx ) appear to be a bit distorted in that either the round steel pellets are many sizes smaller than the BC pellets or the photo's were taken at different distances.
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