Terror, Pattermaster, Carlson, Pure Gold Pattern Results

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Terror, Pattermaster, Carlson, Pure Gold Pattern Results

Postby Bowhunter414 » Sun Aug 17, 2014 7:49 pm

After doing much research on different choke tubes, I decided to buy a few and test them out with my favorite 3" duck loads. After putting shot to paper i was surprised to see the results. I tested the Terror .675, Pattermaster Code Black goose, Pure Gold waterfowl, Carlson Long Range waterfowl & improved modified. I must admit that I did not have much faith in the wad stripping theory before this test, but if i had to rank these chokes, the pattermaster would end up on the top, with the carlson LR constriction choke a close second. I did notice that the constriction chokes seem to spread the wad more evenly than the pattermaster, and the distance that the wads ended up on the ground was negligible. I used the factory flush IC as a baseline, and had to shoot at 37yds three yards shy of the standard 40yd based on location constraints. Let me know if any of you guys have had different results. Theses were shot out of an SX3 with invector plus .742 barrel. Here are some pics of the results
Attachments
Carlson IM #1 Stat.jpg
Carlson IM #1 Pat.jpg
Factory IC Stat.jpg
Factory IC Pat.jpg
Last edited by Bowhunter414 on Sun Aug 17, 2014 8:15 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Terror, Pattermaster, Carlson, Pure Gold Pattern Results

Postby Bowhunter414 » Sun Aug 17, 2014 7:51 pm

...
Attachments
Carlson LR #2 Stat.jpg
Carlson LR #2 Pat.jpg
Carlson LR #1 Stat.jpg
Carlson LR #1 Pat.jpg
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Re: Terror, Pattermaster, Carlson, Pure Gold Pattern Results

Postby Bowhunter414 » Sun Aug 17, 2014 7:52 pm

...
Attachments
Patternmaster Goose #2 Stat.jpg
Patternmaster Goose #2 Pat.jpg
Patternmaster Goose #1 Stat.jpg
Patternmaster Goose #1 Pat.jpg
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Re: Terror, Pattermaster, Carlson, Pure Gold Pattern Results

Postby Bowhunter414 » Sun Aug 17, 2014 7:54 pm

...
Attachments
Terror #1 Stat.jpg
Terror #1 Pat.jpg
Pure Gold Stat.jpg
Pure Gold Pat.jpg
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Re: Terror, Pattermaster, Carlson, Pure Gold Pattern Results

Postby Bowhunter414 » Sun Aug 17, 2014 7:55 pm

...
Attachments
Terror #2 Stat.jpg
Terror #2 Pat.jpg
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Re: Terror, Pattermaster, Carlson, Pure Gold Pattern Results

Postby R-Factor » Sun Aug 17, 2014 8:19 pm

Thanks for sharing your results- well put-together and easy to read! :thumbsup:
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Re: Terror, Pattermaster, Carlson, Pure Gold Pattern Results

Postby m3500 » Tue Aug 19, 2014 7:46 pm

The Carlson and Patternmaster look the best
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Re: Terror, Pattermaster, Carlson, Pure Gold Pattern Results

Postby grnhd » Tue Aug 19, 2014 9:14 pm

Very nice how you put that together, nicely done :thumbsup: .
That's about how my overbores do with comparable constrictions and shot sizes. All but that IC pattern would kill birds. I'm surprised with the PM patterns, those look good. I could never get one to do that well, but when I tested one I didn't test any loads in the 1400 fps range. I'm not surprised with the Carlson LR or IM patterns. For the money those are hard to beat.
Also, there should be 153-155 pellets in a 1 1/4 load of 2's. If you have a scale it would be interesting to see if they are bigger than a normal #2 or if the charge is light.
Again, nicely done and thanks for sharing.
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Re: Terror, Pattermaster, Carlson, Pure Gold Pattern Results

Postby BT Justice » Wed Aug 20, 2014 3:44 am

The Carlson did about the best all around, however take a good look at the .675 Terror Tube #2 steel patterns, your showing a lot of center density which means it may be a good longer range combination.
Even though your percentages were high with the Patternmaster the way the shot is dispersed just looks a bit wierd (especially the X looking pattern) , it may be good for short range work but not for longer range work. Your going to have to try that one in the field and see what it does
Nice job, you put he effort into trying different tubes and seeing what actually did work with the loads your planning on using.
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Re: Terror, Pattermaster, Carlson, Pure Gold Pattern Results

Postby zpstl321 » Wed Aug 20, 2014 5:21 am

I have to agree...I think the Carlson LR tube turned in the best overall performance and would be my first choice.
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Re: Terror, Pattermaster, Carlson, Pure Gold Pattern Results

Postby cannon » Wed Aug 20, 2014 5:43 am

Nicely done. I particularly like the fact that this would be an unbiased look at PM tube results compared to others. I'm firmly convinced that PM's are limited purpose tubes, but I'm also sold on the belief that, within their limited purposes, they're great tubes. The en vogue thing to do around here amongst the self-proclaimed "experts" that regularly post is to bash patternmaster. That was originally because they were expensive. Then it was because those friggin experts decided that they somehow defied the laws of physics and made a gun louder, if they were ported. Then there were voluminous claims that the patterns produced by them were terrible, across the board and without qualification. Along the way, I think it just became popular to criticize the tubes and the company that makes em, and a mentality of approval-seeking bandwagon jumping became prevalent. I've used a PM tube with one of my loads since the late '90's. I only use it with that one load, but it out-patterns anything else I have by a wide margin with that load.

Either way, good on ya for doing the work and laying the results out there. What you've done is about 1,000,000 times more helpful than the usual banter 'round here.
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Re: Terror, Pattermaster, Carlson, Pure Gold Pattern Results

Postby 3200 man » Wed Aug 20, 2014 6:59 am

And the decision comes down to...do you want a pattern that will give you 80 percent chance of success at your normal
shooting distance or a 50 / 50 chance with longer shots ? :huh:

Knowing you can hit'em out to 40 yds with a good pattern , seems to be a better idea than having a choke constriction
that is made for , beyond your ability ?

You have shown what you have in these patterns ( really good work )......It's your Choice , you deserve it !
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Re: Terror, Pattermaster, Carlson, Pure Gold Pattern Results

Postby Bowhunter414 » Wed Aug 20, 2014 3:15 pm

Thanks for all the replies guys

grnhd wrote:Very nice how you put that together, nicely done :thumbsup: .
That's about how my overbores do with comparable constrictions and shot sizes. All but that IC pattern would kill birds. I'm surprised with the PM patterns, those look good. I could never get one to do that well, but when I tested one I didn't test any loads in the 1400 fps range. I'm not surprised with the Carlson LR or IM patterns. For the money those are hard to beat.
Also, there should be 153-155 pellets in a 1 1/4 load of 2's. If you have a scale it would be interesting to see if they are bigger than a normal #2 or if the charge is light.
Again, nicely done and thanks for sharing.


I am still consistently getting between 138-140 pellets in this case of Sportsmans that I have, so I broke out the scale this afternoon. I think the load may be slightly under charged, but not enough to make up for 15 pellets so maybe the shot is actually a little bigger than an average #2. Seems unlikely, but either way they seem to pattern good. Here is a picture of what i found, scale is in ounces.
Attachments
Rem #2 Data.jpg
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Re: Terror, Pattermaster, Carlson, Pure Gold Pattern Results

Postby Bowhunter414 » Wed Aug 20, 2014 3:35 pm

Forgot to mention i would like to try a terror .700 and would trade the terror .675 with 9 shots through it, if anyone is interested. Can't seem to find any of the .700 invector plus chokes for sale anywhere.
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Re: Terror, Pattermaster, Carlson, Pure Gold Pattern Results

Postby cootlover » Wed Aug 20, 2014 5:56 pm

Out of my HK sbe PM kicks butt and out of my M2 20ga :thumbsup:
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Re: Terror, Pattermaster, Carlson, Pure Gold Pattern Results

Postby grnhd » Wed Aug 20, 2014 8:34 pm

Bowhunter414 wrote:Thanks for all the replies guys

grnhd wrote:Very nice how you put that together, nicely done :thumbsup: .
That's about how my overbores do with comparable constrictions and shot sizes. All but that IC pattern would kill birds. I'm surprised with the PM patterns, those look good. I could never get one to do that well, but when I tested one I didn't test any loads in the 1400 fps range. I'm not surprised with the Carlson LR or IM patterns. For the money those are hard to beat.
Also, there should be 153-155 pellets in a 1 1/4 load of 2's. If you have a scale it would be interesting to see if they are bigger than a normal #2 or if the charge is light.
Again, nicely done and thanks for sharing.


I am still consistently getting between 138-140 pellets in this case of Sportsmans that I have, so I broke out the scale this afternoon. I think the load may be slightly under charged, but not enough to make up for 15 pellets so maybe the shot is actually a little bigger than an average #2. Seems unlikely, but either way they seem to pattern good. Here is a picture of what i found, scale is in ounces.


Yeah, that's a little light. A 1 1/4 load is 547 grs and you've got 532. That would only be about 4 pellets. So that only leaves the pellets are bigger than a #2. No matter really, they are patterning fine. Kill some ducks with 'em.
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Re: Terror, Pattermaster, Carlson, Pure Gold Pattern Results

Postby BT Justice » Thu Aug 21, 2014 4:49 am

cannon wrote:Nicely done. I particularly like the fact that this would be an unbiased look at PM tube results compared to others. I'm firmly convinced that PM's are limited purpose tubes, but I'm also sold on the belief that, within their limited purposes, they're great tubes. The en vogue thing to do around here amongst the self-proclaimed "experts" that regularly post is to bash patternmaster. That was originally because they were expensive. Then it was because those friggin experts decided that they somehow defied the laws of physics and made a gun louder, if they were ported. Then there were voluminous claims that the patterns produced by them were terrible, across the board and without qualification. Along the way, I think it just became popular to criticize the tubes and the company that makes em, and a mentality of approval-seeking bandwagon jumping became prevalent. I've used a PM tube with one of my loads since the late '90's. I only use it with that one load, but it out-patterns anything else I have by a wide margin with that load.

Either way, good on ya for doing the work and laying the results out there. What you've done is about 1,000,000 times more helpful than the usual banter 'round here.

The Patternmasters do have a bad rap with a lot of people but not just because it's based on opinion.
I had one for my Gold 10 and ran everything I could through it from slow factory loads to very fast reloads, it did well with the slow Winchester and Remington factory steel(1260 fps) loads and that was about it.
What made me return it was most of my fast steel loads were blowing apart and it was causing wad tumble with the RSI wads, which apparently has happened to others with the PM tubes. Just was not the right choice for what I wanted.
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Re: Terror, Pattermaster, Carlson, Pure Gold Pattern Results

Postby cannon » Thu Aug 21, 2014 7:01 pm

BT Justice wrote:
cannon wrote:Nicely done. I particularly like the fact that this would be an unbiased look at PM tube results compared to others. I'm firmly convinced that PM's are limited purpose tubes, but I'm also sold on the belief that, within their limited purposes, they're great tubes. The en vogue thing to do around here amongst the self-proclaimed "experts" that regularly post is to bash patternmaster. That was originally because they were expensive. Then it was because those friggin experts decided that they somehow defied the laws of physics and made a gun louder, if they were ported. Then there were voluminous claims that the patterns produced by them were terrible, across the board and without qualification. Along the way, I think it just became popular to criticize the tubes and the company that makes em, and a mentality of approval-seeking bandwagon jumping became prevalent. I've used a PM tube with one of my loads since the late '90's. I only use it with that one load, but it out-patterns anything else I have by a wide margin with that load.

Either way, good on ya for doing the work and laying the results out there. What you've done is about 1,000,000 times more helpful than the usual banter 'round here.

The Patternmasters do have a bad rap with a lot of people but not just because it's based on opinion.
I had one for my Gold 10 and ran everything I could through it from slow factory loads to very fast reloads, it did well with the slow Winchester and Remington factory steel(1260 fps) loads and that was about it.
What made me return it was most of my fast steel loads were blowing apart and it was causing wad tumble with the RSI wads, which apparently has happened to others with the PM tubes. Just was not the right choice for what I wanted.


That's exactly what my findings were with them. In heavy, slow loads that employed old school, thick plastic wads, they get great patterns. With B&P & RSI wads, pretty terrible. But, for a guy that ran nothing but 1 3/8 oz loads of DryLok BB's for a decade, it was a perfect tube. My defense of patternmaster was a result of the fact that folks bashed em because they couldn't get 7/8 loads of #4's @ 1,700 to pattern through em, and therefore took a blanket stance that the tubes were inferior and that anybody that used one was both pretentious and ignorant, at the same time.

I started reloading in '07, I think. When I did, I started out with the singular intent of loading 1 3/8 oz loads of BB's in a 3" hull, because that was my go-to load, at the time. Expected to find published loads, but didn't, so I developed one, and when I did, I went with MM wads with the full expectation that it would be launched through a PM tube. It was only when I started loading 1's-4's that I reached for the other tubes on my shelf. Like I said, IMHO, PM's are definitely limited purpose tubes, but they generally perform very well when in their element.
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Re: Terror, Pattermaster, Carlson, Pure Gold Pattern Results

Postby grnhd » Thu Aug 21, 2014 7:10 pm

But why would anybody want a limited purpose tube?
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Re: Terror, Pattermaster, Carlson, Pure Gold Pattern Results

Postby cannon » Thu Aug 21, 2014 8:50 pm

grnhd wrote:But why would anybody want a limited purpose tube?


Ha! Because they throw the best pattern with the only load you're using em for, of course. Same reason people buy cylinder or XXF chokes . . . because there's no such thing as one choke that works best for every load across every gun. If it makes the loads you're wanting to use do better than anything else, why wouldn't a person want that limited purpose choke? For a decade, I considered my pet favorite as an all-purpose load. A PM tube gave me petter patterns than anything else.

I saw my Carlson's LM INV+ the same way . . . Threw great patterns with #2's @ 1,600, but not worth a hoot on 1's @ 1,450. Limited purpose.
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Re: Terror, Pattermaster, Carlson, Pure Gold Pattern Results

Postby BT Justice » Fri Aug 22, 2014 8:00 am

grnhd wrote:But why would anybody want a limited purpose tube?

Like Cannon stated for a lot of folks it works with what they buy/bought off the shelves, figures used to be that only around 5% of all people who participated in any kind of shooting activities reloaded, now who knows with the ammo shortage thing. But in any event most people who hunt buy off the shelf ammo, and for many years the PM tubes went very well with the slow factory steel loads offered.
Now with more and more fast steel loads being offered by the factories, the PM tubes may not be the best choice simply because the design (wad stripper) does not work well with fast steel loads, at least from what we've seen.
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Re: Terror, Pattermaster, Carlson, Pure Gold Pattern Results

Postby goosepit2007 » Fri Aug 22, 2014 11:20 am

]


is this there wad stripping chokes (patternmaster)with studs and or there blackcload normal constriction choke?

goose
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Re: Terror, Pattermaster, Carlson, Pure Gold Pattern Results

Postby DoubleDutchChuck » Fri Aug 22, 2014 1:50 pm

cannon wrote: I've used a PM tube with one of my loads since the late '90's. I only use it with that one load, but it out-patterns anything else I have by a wide margin with that load.


For the original post.....great job, well done.

As for Pattern Master chokes, I agree w/ Cannon in that the PM chokes can work well with specific loads. Back in the 90's, Mike See (original owner of Pattern Master chokes) sent me 6 various size chokes to shoot in the 390 I had at that time. Of those 6 chokes, I found one that patterned one load great, and was better then other chokes that I have/had. I chose not to keep any of the chokes tho as I didn't want a choke that was only good for one specific load. Some folks that use Pattern Master chokes swear by them, and good for them that they perform to the requirements they desire. The PM chokes that I tried, both 12ga and 10ga, did not meet the requirements I wanted.
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Re: Terror, Pattermaster, Carlson, Pure Gold Pattern Results

Postby Bowhunter414 » Fri Aug 22, 2014 2:52 pm

goosepit2007 wrote:
Bowhunter414 wrote:...



is this there wad stripping chokes with studs and or there blackcload normal constriction choke?

goose


The patternmaster used was the code black goose extended, & ported choke.

I agree that it does not always have the best looking pattern, but from my experience seems to produce excellent numbers with loads between BB-#2 at speeds under 1500fps(which is generally what i shoot anyway). I know that this may not be the case with all guns do to design, size, bore, and harmonics of each individual barrel.

I plan on doing some more testing of the Terror, Carlson LR, and Pattermaster before deciding which one will be used for my long range duck and goose choke. The Terror has been sent off to be opened up to .700 because I didn't really see the advantage of the extreme constriction of .675 for my 28" invector plus barrels. I would be happy to post the results if anyone is interested in seeing them. It would probably be a few weeks though, as I just sent my Terror out today.
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Re: Terror, Pattermaster, Carlson, Pure Gold Pattern Results

Postby Bowhunter414 » Fri Aug 22, 2014 3:19 pm

Do any of you guys have any experience with DrakeKiller chokes. I cant seem to wrap my head around the idea that a factory length choke without an extended parallel section would be able to keep up with the extended chokes with the longer parallel section, but they seem to have good reviews by the people that use them.
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