St. Francis Sunken Lands Debacle

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Re: St. Francis Sunken Lands Debacle

Postby okiequacker » Fri Dec 10, 2010 8:14 am

I hunted St. Francis all during the 70's and we didn't have much problem with people in "our" blind but here is something to think about:
You go scouting on public land for deer hunting spot. You find a spot and the day before you hunt you put your ladder stand on a tree. You flag the stand and also your walk-in route with hunter orange tape. You get there the next morning and someone is sitting in your stand. What would you do? How is this different from what the discussion is here? What I would do is walk up, tell them that is my stand and then if he wants to still hunt on that tree that I take my stand down and walk away with it. (stand has name and phone # on it)

On St. Francis, when I hunted it, everyone left there decoys out. Also most blinds were floating. So I say the blind is mine the same as my deer stand is. We had quick disconnects with locks on our cables holding the blind. If someone was in "our" blind and we didn't have room for them to stay and we let them know this and they wanted to disagree with us about leaving then we would say "well, i'm going to move my blind and decoys a little ways down from here then and they can stay in this "spot" if they wish but not in the blind.
You guys go ahead and cut my post up now! haha..
Just my opinion of course! :thumbsup:
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Re: St. Francis Sunken Lands Debacle

Postby gomer snerd » Fri Dec 10, 2010 8:28 pm

Have at it. Heard that friction from moving like that can result in spontaneous combustion.
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Re: St. Francis Sunken Lands Debacle

Postby TNquacker » Fri Dec 10, 2010 8:31 pm

I agree with you. Take your stand move your blind. But you as well as some others are missing the point. THE POINT is you are hunting PUBLIC land and you can't claim a spot and run the rest of the PUBLIC off from it just because you put up a tree stand or build a blind. I also agree that it sucks when you do improve upon a spot on public land and do find you are not the first to the finish line when arriving to that spot. But thats part of hunting on PUBLIC land. If you want a hunting spot that you have absolute control over then buy it or lease it. My two cents.
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Re: St. Francis Sunken Lands Debacle

Postby okiequacker » Sat Dec 11, 2010 12:00 pm

I haven't hunted from a blind on public lands in 30 years. never had to move a blind. never ran anyone out of a blind. never even had to pic MY decoys up either. Not sure how it all is on the sunken lands now. Back when I did hunt it there were a few blinds caught fire accidentally. I never burned a blind....including ours. (was a big battle with "club" blinds back then) I do understand it is public land. If Arkansas wants all this arguing to go away they need to start with clean slate each year and at Big Lake and Sunken Lands they draw for spots and then that spot IS yours until 7:30am. then it is fair game after that. If you wish to build a blind on your spot it must be removed within 2 weeks of the close of season. I understand about building a blind. I understand it is public land. From a blind builder's stand point, they would say to pick a spot and build you one if you want to hunt from one. non-blind builders say I should be able to hunt anywhere on this river. It will always be this argument. nothing all these posts say will ever change that.
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Re: St. Francis Sunken Lands Debacle

Postby matt13ar » Mon Dec 13, 2010 1:47 pm

Curl tail wrote:I have a different take on this as the majority of you do. As a blind owner/builder, I feel that it is my place to hunt, public or not. If I am not at the blind and you get in it, stay and enjoy it if I don't show up. If I do, I have the right to ask you to leave. If you refuse, I will not get any ego in the way, although sometimes I really want to. I sometimes will allow the "guests" to stay if there is room, but if I brought my own guests, I will ask you nicely to leave. Normally, the process is smooth but sometimes, arrogance gets in the way. When that happens, I will just back away and explain that I will simply keep you and your group from having any success. I will park my rig about 100 or so yards out of your way and make sure that any duck that comes near you will not want to work your spread.

If you pull that public lake BS on me, I will reply that those decoys your using are on public water, and I have the right to use them. See, it works both ways. Listen guys, for those of us who scout out an area, buy the material, and put in the many hard labor hours to build the blind, you as ethical hunters should IMO, respect that we, the owners, had 100% involvement in cost and construction, and you had nothing invested. So for you to claim it is fair to enact squatters rights because of public domain is just wrong. The issue is of ethics, being honorable sportsmen, and not letting any ego preclude good judgment.

I want everyone to have as much success as possible while hunting. Sometimes, I am late to my blind for unforeseen reasons. If I do not show up, because it is on public water, please use it, but take care of it. I hope you have a great hunt. If I show up and ask you to leave, please show me respect and honor the fact that it was my fruits that bought and built it. If those of you reading this disagree with how I feel and handle this type of situation, then so be it. Don't be a jerk when I ask you to leave and I won't be a jerk by ruining your hunt. If there is room and I want to invite you to stay, that is my call. If you want a blind to hunt out of, go scout out a place and build one as long as it is not on top of someone else's blind.

I also understand that someone can and has vandalized my blind so it is unuseable for even me because I asked them to leave. I know who it was that did it as well. But because I am ethical and promote good sportsmanship, I simply assume that risk and will elect to rebuild it again. I have the time and the money. My blind(s) have been in the same area I hunt for over 25 years and the locals know who owns them. Out of mutual respect, we do not hunt other people’s blinds in my area unless we call in advance and find out the schedule of that blinds use and gain permission from the owner. That takes the surprise out of the equation. You are not helping yourself by using someones blind without prior permission. It would be better to find out the owner and talk to him about his blind. Find out if he would even consider allowing you to use it when he is not there. You might be surprised in what happens. More than likely, the two of you will strike up a lot of good hunting stories and find some commonalities between you. It may even become a lasting friendship simply because you made the effort to be ethical in the beginning with him.

Curl


It is absolutely embarrassing as a hunter that fellow hunters are actually arguing this topic. Curl - with all due respect, you have an extremely screwed up view of laws, values, and ethics. It is comical that you would claim to be ethical and promote good sportsmanship. When you own a piece of land you have the legal right to control who uses the land. However, on public land, land you don't own or lease, you have absolutely no right to control the access of others. That is the whole concept of public land. All hunters have equal access. Period, end of story. This is the law of the land set forth in the constitution. The constitution that most hunters hold dear to their hearts. You can't go to a public parking lot, paint your name on the best parking spot, and claim it for the entire holiday shopping season just because you invested in the paint and were there first. In essence this is exactly what you are doing. How ridiculous does that sound? When you build a blind on public land, you must build it with the assumption that others have the exact same right as you do to hunt the blind. First come, first serve. You say you promote good sportsmanship? Well, how sporting is it to "park (the) rig about 100 or so yards out of your way and make sure that any duck that comes near you will not want to work your spread." There could be some boy with his dad hoping to shoot his first duck in a blind that he is legally allowed to hunt and being the "good sportsman" that you are, you would actively attempt to prevent him from having a memorable duck hunting experience. It's one thing to hunt ducks, but only the scum of the earth intentionally sets out to prevent others from killing ducks. If you want to control a blind, buy or lease a piece of land and build a blind that you have a legal right to refuse access to others. Until then, stop blocking other people's God given and constitutionally granted right to access and use public property.
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Re: St. Francis Sunken Lands Debacle

Postby mdjj » Thu Dec 16, 2010 7:08 pm

What makes you think all the land out there is PUBLIC I know fo sho its not all public because my blind is not.I can promise if your in my blind when I get there you might not leave but me and my bunch will hunt and I will help you dial agfc. :fingerpt: Not to be a but hole but if people listen to all these wanna be bad azzes on what they would or wouldn't do is where the problems arise until you get all the facts straight. You was thinking about letting the air out of their tires I believe they have a boat house at Tulot.So you would be being a ass to someone else. :thumbsup:
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Re: St. Francis Sunken Lands Debacle

Postby aunt betty » Sun Dec 19, 2010 5:10 pm

Here's my two cents and some are going to agree and some won't. I DON'T CARE, I DO WHAT I WANT!

If you show up right at shooting time and ask a guy to leave you are effectively canceling his hunt period. For him to pack up, leave and try to find another spot is RUDE to every other hunter in the marsh. That means if he does what you are asking him to, he'll be screwing up things for everyone for the next half-hour MINIMUM. That's where you guys are messing up. If you choose to come roaring in at the last minute and find your blind occupied, it's your fault for not being there. Think about it just for a minute. At that point it's the best idea to just work together and salvage everyone's hunt as best as they can.

I've been in blinds in Illinois that were public that had these rules and people STILL try and show up right at shooting time. I've ALWAYS just invited the poor guys in with me and I've made some good friends that way. If I ran them off I'd be wondering if they were back at the parking lot "plotting" on me. It's a pain to carry all your stuff and find someone is where you're going. Can't we all just work together? They are just ducks. It's funner to share the wealth. I'm just ONE GUY and ONE dog and ONE shotgun.
Come on, give me a break.

Why would someone spend thousands of dollars building anything on public ground? What if one of these blind catches fire?
Is there an insurance claim? Does the fire dept even come? Are they taxed? Registered? No Trespassing signs allowed?
What if I get injured in one of these blinds? Can I sue the owner?

There really should be some rules about what time they need to be occupied by. Then if it's empty it's open after that time. That's how it is done up here. To kick someone out of a hunting blind at shooting time is just plain wrong. You may as well just shoot a hole in his boat and kill the sucker. That way nobody complains and your blind don't get burnt.
INTERNET CREDIBILITY is...an OXYMORON. :moon:
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Re: St. Francis Sunken Lands Debacle

Postby jwbatton » Sun Dec 19, 2010 10:28 pm

Never Been to Sunken Lands WMA but I sometimes hunt public land. I can see both sides point of view. Bottom line is The law states its public land and as with all public land its whom ever gets to that spot first. One of two things will end up happening if there are too many issues.
1. All the blinds will be burned down or not be allowed to be maintained or, 2. There will be a draw system put into place.
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Re: St. Francis Sunken Lands Debacle

Postby mdjj » Mon Dec 20, 2010 4:21 pm

nwducker wrote:For you blind builders: There aint no damn proof you buildt that blind! Do you have proof of ownership? If i hunt over there im gonnna send you packing.

Apparently you haven't heard of Oak Donnick Hunting club.

:hammer:
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Re: St. Francis Sunken Lands Debacle

Postby cannon » Mon Dec 20, 2010 4:43 pm

mdjj wrote:What makes you think all the land out there is PUBLIC I know fo sho its not all public because my blind is not.I can promise if your in my blind when I get there you might not leave but me and my bunch will hunt and I will help you dial agfc. :fingerpt: Not to be a but hole but if people listen to all these wanna be bad azzes on what they would or wouldn't do is where the problems arise until you get all the facts straight. You was thinking about letting the air out of their tires I believe they have a boat house at Tulot.So you would be being a ass to someone else. :thumbsup:


Hatchie Coon? Yeah, tulot can be a bit confusing. You'd think that the AGFC would do a better job of posting their boundaries. Course, I guess it would help if THEY knew where their boundaries were. If they did, they probably could have avoided a big, fat court battle. :clapping:

I've got a pretty firm grip on where the AGFC land stops and where the private ground starts, but you won't see me in one of them blinds, even if the hunting there hadn't sucked for the last 10 years. Them boys is crazy . . . Handcock, Gipson, Roach, the whole clan of 'em. Nope, don't want to be startin' nuthin with them boys. :fingerpt:
Smell that? Smells like sumthin died in here.
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Re: St. Francis Sunken Lands Debacle

Postby jimmyscott » Mon Dec 20, 2010 11:16 pm

Wow, I had no idea my little post would garner such a response. Thanks everybody for including your thoughts. I've learned quite a bit through this. Keep it coming...
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Re: St. Francis Sunken Lands Debacle

Postby gomer snerd » Mon Dec 20, 2010 11:47 pm

All together now..."Burn 'em..burn 'em all. Burn 'em..burn 'em all" repeat in unison.
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Re: St. Francis Sunken Lands Debacle

Postby gomer snerd » Mon Dec 20, 2010 11:54 pm

Apparently you haven't heard of Oak Donnick Hunting club.

Is that the Poinsett county chapter of NAMBLA????
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Re: St. Francis Sunken Lands Debacle

Postby ArkansasRobertson » Tue Dec 21, 2010 9:36 am

We are lucky we got government land to even hunt on...be these dudes are F*cks
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Re: St. Francis Sunken Lands Debacle

Postby Curl tail » Tue Dec 21, 2010 2:47 pm

nwducker wrote:it is illegal to stop anyone from hunting . "Impeding a hunt" I heard of a dentist in little Rock that someone got his hole so he put his boat out in front of them and banged on the boat so nothing came in.. The hunters filmed it and he was promptly arrested by the game warden.


Ok so I found this in one of the "laws of Arkansas" searches I did:
Arkansas ARKANSAS CODE OF 1987 ANNOTATED TITLE 5. CRIMINAL OFFENSES SUBTITLE 6. OFFENSES AGAINST PUBLIC HEALTH, SAFETY, OR WELFARE CHAPTER 71. RIOTS, DISORDERLY CONDUCT, ETC. SUBCHAPTER 2. OFFENSES GENERALLY 5-71-228 Obstruction of shooting, hunting, fishing, or trapping activities.
(a) It is unlawful for any person to willfully obstruct or impede the participation of any individual in the lawful activity of shooting, hunting, fishing, or trapping in this state. Provided, that nothing in this section shall prohibit a landowner or lessee from exercising his or her lawful right to prohibit hunting, fishing, or trapping on his or her land, or from exercising any other legal right.
(b) (1) A court of general jurisdiction may enjoin conduct which would be in violation of subsection (a) of this section upon petition by a person affected or who reasonably may be affected by such conduct, upon a showing that such conduct is threatened or that it has occurred on a particular premises in the past and that it is not unreasonable to expect that under similar circumstances it will be repeated.
(2) (A) A court of general jurisdiction may award damages to any person adversely affected by a violation of subsection (a) of this section which may include an award for punitive damages.
(B) In addition to other items of special damage, measure of damages may include expenditures of the affected person for license and permit fees, travel, guides, special equipment, and supplies, to the extent that such expenditures were rendered futile by prevention of taking of a wild animal or fish.
(c) Any person violating the provisions of this section shall be guilty of a misdemeanor, and, upon conviction thereof, shall be punished by a fine of not less than one hundred dollars ($100) nor more than five hundred dollars ($500), or imprisonment for not to exceed thirty (30) days, or both, and if such person holds an Arkansas hunting, fishing, or trapping license at the time of conviction, such license shall be revoked.
(d) This section shall not prevent any wildlife officer or other law enforcement officer from performing his or her duties.


So I guess the next discussion would be the definition of "impeding or willfully obstruct". I don't think that by moving away from the blind a 100 yards would "impede or willfully obstruct" someone from hunting. They will still be able to hunt, just not have much luck. Only time I would resort to such "mean and un-ethical" measures as some have called it, is when I am dealing with a true arrogant jerk with no reasoning or a "I don't give a crap" attitude. Most of the time, I just let them hunt, especially if they have kids wth them. Don't get a "I am a bad boy" attitude with me and it will be a very respectful conversation. Get an attitude and things will go south in a heartbeat. Just the way it is. Also, I don't hunt anywhere near St. Francis or Big Lake area. I am on a public lake though and the folks there are very nice, like me, and we all get along just fine. Lots of respect on both sides.
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Re: St. Francis Sunken Lands Debacle

Postby nedlman » Tue Dec 21, 2010 7:54 pm

Theres nothing wrong with being respectful in that way, all we are saying if someone beats you to your blind and you ask them to leave and they kindly reply " sorry but we got here early and really like this spot and you are welcome to join us" and then you say no u need to leave and they dont and you set up 100 yds away. thats not right in anyway, not try to sound like a bad *** but that would not happen with a lot of people. your blind would probably not be there the next time you tried to hunt it.
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Re: St. Francis Sunken Lands Debacle

Postby jimmyscott » Tue Dec 21, 2010 10:42 pm

:hi:
Last edited by jimmyscott on Wed Sep 12, 2012 11:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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St. Francis Sunken Lands Debacle

Postby jimmyscott » Sat Aug 04, 2012 11:40 pm

Just thought I'd bring this back to the top. There's an important vote on this issue at the end of the month.
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Re: St. Francis Sunken Lands Debacle

Postby ShootinDrakes » Mon Aug 06, 2012 2:32 pm

Thank God these blinds are going bye bye!!!!!!!!
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St. Francis Sunken Lands Debacle

Postby romeocadet08 » Sun Aug 12, 2012 2:38 pm

It will really be a shame if this passes. I've spent many mornings over the last decade in the blinds at BL ....some mornings ended with full limits of mallards and some weren't but all were very memorable.

Its just absolutely awesome to sit in some of those blinds and experience the hunt. To think about all the hunters before me and the decades and decades of history each blind has is worth the hunt, regardless of what your game strap looks like at the end of the hunt.

I've had some bad experiences and some great experiences with the "owners" of the blinds. At no point, have I or anyone with me been anywhere remotely disrespectful towards the owners. I've been run off several times. Some of those times I've been immediately threatened and other times its been nothing more than a handshake and a apology from both of parties and a "good luck" exchanged upon leaving.

As a OOS hunter, I understand that I am a "guest" in someone's stomping grounds and I am completely fine with that. BL is a huge place with many acres of huntable water. Hell, some of the best hunts I've had ,as far as killing, have been standing in thigh deep water...hundreds and hundreds of yards from the the closest blind with nothing more than a half dozen decoys and a jerk string.

I've also formed several friendships with some of the owners that have lasted for years. In fact, it's some of those very owners that call me, here in SC, and let me know that I need to head West with the mutt and gun.



That being said, it is what you make it!!! I know that SC hunters are one of the very least-liked crowd in AR because of the actions/attitudes/lack of morals, ethics, and sportsmanship that some have chosen to show while out there. In my years of venturing out to hunt the great state of AR I have always strived towards one thing and one thing only...and it's not to kill birds, but to respect what y'all have to offer and the resource that y'all are blessed with. And in every way possible...not just the hunting opportunities but everything from the people, culture, and heritage of AR.


Looking forward to mashin on some green this year..... T-minus 100 days and counting
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Re: St. Francis Sunken Lands Debacle

Postby pheasants » Wed Aug 15, 2012 4:31 pm

Curl tail wrote:I have a different take on this as the majority of you do. As a blind owner/builder, I feel that it is my place to hunt, public or not. If I am not at the blind and you get in it, stay and enjoy it if I don't show up. If I do, I have the right to ask you to leave. If you refuse, I will not get any ego in the way, although sometimes I really want to. I sometimes will allow the "guests" to stay if there is room, but if I brought my own guests, I will ask you nicely to leave. Normally, the process is smooth but sometimes, arrogance gets in the way. When that happens, I will just back away and explain that I will simply keep you and your group from having any success. I will park my rig about 100 or so yards out of your way and make sure that any duck that comes near you will not want to work your spread.

If you pull that public lake BS on me, I will reply that those decoys your using are on public water, and I have the right to use them. See, it works both ways. Listen guys, for those of us who scout out an area, buy the material, and put in the many hard labor hours to build the blind, you as ethical hunters should IMO, respect that we, the owners, had 100% involvement in cost and construction, and you had nothing invested. So for you to claim it is fair to enact squatters rights because of public domain is just wrong. The issue is of ethics, being honorable sportsmen, and not letting any ego preclude good judgment.

I want everyone to have as much success as possible while hunting. Sometimes, I am late to my blind for unforeseen reasons. If I do not show up, because it is on public water, please use it, but take care of it. I hope you have a great hunt. If I show up and ask you to leave, please show me respect and honor the fact that it was my fruits that bought and built it. If those of you reading this disagree with how I feel and handle this type of situation, then so be it. Don't be a jerk when I ask you to leave and I won't be a jerk by ruining your hunt. If there is room and I want to invite you to stay, that is my call. If you want a blind to hunt out of, go scout out a place and build one as long as it is not on top of someone else's blind.

I also understand that someone can and has vandalized my blind so it is unuseable for even me because I asked them to leave. I know who it was that did it as well. But because I am ethical and promote good sportsmanship, I simply assume that risk and will elect to rebuild it again. I have the time and the money. My blind(s) have been in the same area I hunt for over 25 years and the locals know who owns them. Out of mutual respect, we do not hunt other people’s blinds in my area unless we call in advance and find out the schedule of that blinds use and gain permission from the owner. That takes the surprise out of the equation. You are not helping yourself by using someones blind without prior permission. It would be better to find out the owner and talk to him about his blind. Find out if he would even consider allowing you to use it when he is not there. You might be surprised in what happens. More than likely, the two of you will strike up a lot of good hunting stories and find some commonalities between you. It may even become a lasting friendship simply because you made the effort to be ethical in the beginning with him.

Curl


I roam this forum occasionally as I hunt with a buddy on private land in Arkansas and Mississippi. I have never been to this sunken island or any place you guys are referring to nor do I even know where these places are at and I dont care. But having read this post by you Mr. Curl all I can say is wow you are in denial!!! You build this blind with your own money and time and sweat blah blah blah and you use YOUR decoys ect.... Well has it ever occured to you that other guys would build there too if they could? that if your decoys werent left there that other guys decoys would be sitting there too? If you want to hunt out of YOUR blind on public land than get your lazy butt out there before anyone else PLAIN AND SIMPLE!!!!! I can gaurentee you that if I was there before you and you tried to kick me out I wouldnt budge and if you got hostle you would be facing the end of my 9mm real quick! If you tried to "ruin" by hunt well my friend your boat and vehilcle better be well insured! You have to remember this bud: its public land!! You know going into the blind construction that someone else may be there before you. If you are not willing to beat people there, or let people use it than dont even build one! You Mr. Curl are exaclty the kind of people that are runing this great country! You feel like you are entitled to something! You have to earn it my friend by waking up early and busting your chop JUST LIKE EVERYONE ELSE!!
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Re: St. Francis Sunken Lands Debacle

Postby benelliquackerstacker » Thu Aug 16, 2012 12:36 am

pheasants wrote:I roam this forum occasionally as I hunt with a buddy on private land in Arkansas and Mississippi. I have never been to this sunken island or any place you guys are referring to nor do I even know where these places are at and I dont care. But having read this post by you Mr. Curl all I can say is wow you are in denial!!! 1)You build this blind with your own money and time and sweat blah blah blah and you use YOUR decoys ect.... Well has it ever occured to you that other guys would build there too if they could? that if your decoys werent left there that other guys decoys would be sitting there too? If you want to hunt out of YOUR blind on public land 2)than get your lazy butt out there before anyone else PLAIN AND SIMPLE!!!!! I can gaurentee you that if I was there before you and you tried to kick me out I wouldnt budge and if you got hostle you would be facing the end of my 9mm real quick! 3)If you tried to "ruin" by hunt well my friend your boat and vehilcle better be well insured! You have to remember this bud: its public land!! You know going into the blind construction that someone else may be there before you. If you are not willing to beat people there, or let people use it than dont even build one! You Mr. Curl are exaclty the kind of people that are runing this great country! You feel like you are entitled to something! You have to earn it my friend by waking up early and busting your chop JUST LIKE EVERYONE ELSE!!



1) Have you ever actually put in blood, sweat, and tears? I did this weekend working on a blind for a fellow hunter on public land, because I offered to help him. You should offer to help someone, that could buy you some hunts in a blind. Tell you what, find you a spot, clean it out real nice, amd put up a really nice blind. Come season I will be in it and you wont be able to make me leave. How would you feel about that?


2)Ever thought maybe he was providentially hindered? Car wreck in the road, locked keyes in vehicle, forgot something? It happens man, get over yourself.

3) I dare you to sink someones boat or damage someones truck... See how far that gets ya when a lawyer slaps you with a law suit bigger that sh!t.
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Re: St. Francis Sunken Lands Debacle

Postby pheasants » Thu Aug 16, 2012 6:38 am

benelliquackerstacker wrote:
pheasants wrote:1) Have you ever actually put in blood, sweat, and tears? I did this weekend working on a blind for a fellow hunter on public land, because I offered to help him. You should offer to help someone, that could buy you some hunts in a blind. Tell you what, find you a spot, clean it out real nice, amd put up a really nice blind. Come season I will be in it and you wont be able to make me leave. How would you feel about that?


2)Ever thought maybe he was providentially hindered? Car wreck in the road, locked keyes in vehicle, forgot something? It happens man, get over yourself.

3) I dare you to sink someones boat or damage someones truck... See how far that gets ya when a lawyer slaps you with a law suit bigger that sh!t.


hahahahah your joking right? and what proof would this lawyer have that I did it? You think I would be dumb enough to get caught doing it? and to address your # 1 statement yes I have put blood sweat and tears into MANY projects and have felt great satisfaction but I am not dumb enough to do it on public land!!! If i am going to go through all that hard work, time and money I am going to be damn sure I get to hunt it when I want to ie... my own land or lease!!!! now your #2 statement I dont care if had a family emergency that made him late, its called tough luck!

Guys this is not even a debate. YOU CAN NOT "CLAIM" a public hunting spot and just expect to hunt it whenever you want!!Unless it is somekind of draw system or lease of a blind on public land or something of that nature you just CANT and SHOULDNT expect that!! GET OVER IT!! your guys' arrogance appauls me!
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