13 year old boy with pellet gun killed by police

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Re: 13 year old boy with pellet gun killed by police

Postby Bootlipkiller » Mon Oct 28, 2013 11:39 pm

Slow why do you call people names when they don't agree with you? It's rude and you're smart enough to not have to.




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Re: 13 year old boy with pellet gun killed by police

Postby sprigpig1 » Mon Oct 28, 2013 11:54 pm

I propose a 10 day waiting period / background check on plastic toy guns. To check into the family buying it and their pedigree to teach the young child right from wrong. Keep that crap in the back yard. Even if he didn't point it at the police, don't let your kid lug a replica AK around town. :thumbsup:
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Re: 13 year old boy with pellet gun killed by police

Postby slowshooter » Tue Oct 29, 2013 2:38 am

Bootlipkiller wrote:Slow why do you call people names when they don't agree with you? It's rude and you're smart enough to not have to.

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Please tell me what name I called him... As far as I can see I knocked the equivalency that was presented.

That and I make fun of him swinging. :lol3:
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Re: 13 year old boy with pellet gun killed by police

Postby slowshooter » Tue Oct 29, 2013 3:19 am

sprigpig1 wrote:I propose a 10 day waiting period / background check on plastic toy guns. To check into the family buying it and their pedigree to teach the young child right from wrong. Keep that crap in the back yard. Even if he didn't point it at the police, don't let your kid lug a replica AK around town. :thumbsup:


Many years ago I saw an 8 year old walking up the street with what looked like his Dads Mauser 98- it was just that... I ran outside grabbed the rifle and took him and it back to his Mom and let her know that letting her kid was going to go shoot stuff.

He got a whupping. And deserved it. Was it illegal back then to carry a gun outside? No. Is it illegal now? Does it matter since either way it can get you killed?

As for the kid that was in Sonoma. If the FBI says that the officer felt that the boy was a threat and it was a legit shooting. Then what? Am I going to argue. Nope.

But I'll tell you what I will do... I'm going to sit in my easy chair and wonder how long it will be before all you guys start teaching your kids that every cop should be treated like they are kill crazy maniacs that will shoot first and ask questions later. Or when you'll teach them to live in utter and abject terror, that at some point some cop might come up behind them, yell at them and when they turn around to see what's up, they will get shot multiple times... Within seconds.

How many of you are going to teach your kids to live in fear of the police instead of respect them? Think it mattered what that kid thought the police were the coolest guys in town? Not one bit. What are the better odds to minimize the risk of your kid getting killed in any interaction with a militarized police? Respect? Or instilling the fear of being killed? I guarantee you that it's not love you'll want them to feel - you'll teach them to be cowed because you'll want your kids to survive.

In the long run it doesn't matter to me - because already I know that you can't build self respect when you tell kids they should love and respect what you alternately tell them they should fear and be wary of...

If you explained that to a time traveling black man from 1960 he would say: "Welcome to my world white boy".

And then I'll laugh.
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Re: 13 year old boy with pellet gun killed by police

Postby Bootlipkiller » Tue Oct 29, 2013 1:53 pm

slowshooter wrote:
sprigpig1 wrote:I propose a 10 day waiting period / background check on plastic toy guns. To check into the family buying it and their pedigree to teach the young child right from wrong. Keep that crap in the back yard. Even if he didn't point it at the police, don't let your kid lug a replica AK around town. :thumbsup:


Many years ago I saw an 8 year old walking up the street with what looked like his Dads Mauser 98- it was just that... I ran outside grabbed the rifle and took him and it back to his Mom and let her know that letting her kid was going to go shoot stuff.

He got a whupping. And deserved it. Was it illegal back then to carry a gun outside? No. Is it illegal now? Does it matter since either way it can get you killed?

As for the kid that was in Sonoma. If the FBI says that the officer felt that the boy was a threat and it was a legit shooting. Then what? Am I going to argue. Nope.

But I'll tell you what I will do... I'm going to sit in my easy chair and wonder how long it will be before all you guys start teaching your kids that every cop should be treated like they are kill crazy maniacs that will shoot first and ask questions later. Or when you'll teach them to live in utter and abject terror, that at some point some cop might come up behind them, yell at them and when they turn around to see what's up, they will get shot multiple times... Within seconds.

How many of you are going to teach your kids to live in fear of the police instead of respect them? Think it mattered what that kid thought the police were the coolest guys in town? Not one bit. What are the better odds to minimize the risk of your kid getting killed in any interaction with a militarized police? Respect? Or instilling the fear of being killed? I guarantee you that it's not love you'll want them to feel - you'll teach them to be cowed because you'll want your kids to survive.

In the long run it doesn't matter to me - because already I know that you can't build self respect when you tell kids they should love and respect what you alternately tell them they should fear and be wary of...

If you explained that to a time traveling black man from 1960 he would say: "Welcome to my world white boy".

And then I'll laugh.


How objective of you. Call people names for blaming the kid then post that you will teach your kid to fear the cops because they are crazed murderers no matter what the outcome of the investigation. That's not hypocritical. :lol:

I also enjoy how you brought it full circle by adding the race card!

No need to look at this objectively and give all sides the benefit of doubt until the investigation is over. We will just label all cops child killing crazed murderers. :D facts and common sense have never been real important to slow anyway.




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Re: 13 year old boy with pellet gun killed by police

Postby QuackerSmacker498 » Tue Oct 29, 2013 9:19 pm

Slow, I'm so happy your waiting for the FBI to form an opinion on this shooting. Hell, even the FBI information officer said, "I don't know why we are involved in this."

Quick story about an FBI field agent I met at law enforcement class. It was a drug class and the speaker was talking about marijuana plants and cloning plants...blah, blah, blah...Anyways, this 35ish female FBI agent asked the question, "So where do the marijuana plants come from?".......A young 22ish deputy turns his head and says, "Right next to corn plants at Home Depot!"
You can only imagine the laughter that chuckled through the room...she still works for the FBI today

And that's who you want investigating this shooting. I'm sure they will get it right?? :huh:

Even if the FBI disagrees with the other investigating agencies it won't change anything. Its not like the FBI would step in and arrest the officer.

This is tragic incident but ultimately the FBI doesn't care and I'm sure there findings will be exactly the same as the other agencies.

This officer will be cleared criminally of any wrong doi g if everything stands as what is being released to the public. If some big cover is unfolded he will get a homicide charge.

The one thing that is guaranteed, he will be drug through a nasty civil suit that the city will deffinately pay out seven figures.

One other thing, it is a crime in the state of California to posess a replica firearm and not have an orange tip. Airsoft and pellet pistols are covered under the law. So again this is tragic, but it seems the boy committed a crime if the gun pictured on the news was his....maybe the FBI will uncover something else.

Cheers and welcome to reality! :thumbsup:
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Re: 13 year old boy with pellet gun killed by police

Postby slowshooter » Tue Oct 29, 2013 11:44 pm

Bootlipkiller wrote:
slowshooter wrote:
sprigpig1 wrote:I propose a 10 day waiting period / background check on plastic toy guns. To check into the family buying it and their pedigree to teach the young child right from wrong. Keep that crap in the back yard. Even if he didn't point it at the police, don't let your kid lug a replica AK around town. :thumbsup:


Many years ago I saw an 8 year old walking up the street with what looked like his Dads Mauser 98- it was just that... I ran outside grabbed the rifle and took him and it back to his Mom and let her know that letting her kid was going to go shoot stuff.

He got a whupping. And deserved it. Was it illegal back then to carry a gun outside? No. Is it illegal now? Does it matter since either way it can get you killed?

As for the kid that was in Sonoma. If the FBI says that the officer felt that the boy was a threat and it was a legit shooting. Then what? Am I going to argue. Nope.

But I'll tell you what I will do... I'm going to sit in my easy chair and wonder how long it will be before all you guys start teaching your kids that every cop should be treated like they are kill crazy maniacs that will shoot first and ask questions later. Or when you'll teach them to live in utter and abject terror, that at some point some cop might come up behind them, yell at them and when they turn around to see what's up, they will get shot multiple times... Within seconds.

How many of you are going to teach your kids to live in fear of the police instead of respect them? Think it mattered what that kid thought the police were the coolest guys in town? Not one bit. What are the better odds to minimize the risk of your kid getting killed in any interaction with a militarized police? Respect? Or instilling the fear of being killed? I guarantee you that it's not love you'll want them to feel - you'll teach them to be cowed because you'll want your kids to survive.

In the long run it doesn't matter to me - because already I know that you can't build self respect when you tell kids they should love and respect what you alternately tell them they should fear and be wary of...

If you explained that to a time traveling black man from 1960 he would say: "Welcome to my world white boy".

And then I'll laugh.


How objective of you. Call people names for blaming the kid then post that you will teach your kid to fear the cops because they are crazed murderers no matter what the outcome of the investigation. That's not hypocritical. :lol:


Interesting. Again, tell me which names I called anyone. What I wondered whether or not parents would do the math and determine that telling their kids to treat the police like kill crazy maniacs was better than teaching to respect to respect the people behind the badge. This situation illustrates why - because respect or not - if an officer feels like they are threatened they are going to shoot. Even if the threat doesn't actually exist.

Perhaps you should read my post again.

I also enjoy how you brought it full circle by adding the race card!


Tell me how pointing out that every kid (white or not) on the street now has to behave like a black kid from the 40s and 50s or risk getting shot is a "card".


No need to look at this objectively and give all sides the benefit of doubt until the investigation is over. We will just label all cops child killing crazed murderers. :D facts and common sense have never been real important to slow anyway.

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Yeeeaaaa... Really, read my post again. If you still believe what your last paragraph says I'll be happy to explain why you are incorrect. No skin off my nose. Did I say the shooter was a maniac? Nope. Did I say he was kill crazy? Nope.

Honestly I hope the guy isn't crucified for this before all the facts are in. That guy already has to live with the fact he shot a child with a toy.
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Re: 13 year old boy with pellet gun killed by police

Postby Nabs » Wed Oct 30, 2013 12:18 am

Honestly I hope the guy isn't crucified for this before all the facts are in. That guy already has to live with the fact he shot a child with a toy.


He shot a criminal with a firearm that was indistinguishable from a deadly weapon because of an alteration, Whomever altered it should face felony murder charges.
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Re: 13 year old boy with pellet gun killed by police

Postby slowshooter » Wed Oct 30, 2013 12:19 am

QuackerSmacker498 wrote:Slow, I'm so happy your waiting for the FBI to form an opinion on this shooting. Hell, even the FBI information officer said, "I don't know why we are involved in this."


The question he was answering wasn't why they were involved. But who asked for their involvement. Also the Bureau has made it clear they are going to examine the events and determine whether or not to file federal charges against the Sheriff. If they believe there is sufficient evidence they will file. If not, they won't. Easy as that.

Quick story about an FBI field agent I met at law enforcement class. It was a drug class and the speaker was talking about marijuana plants and cloning plants...blah, blah, blah...Anyways, this 35ish female FBI agent asked the question, "So where do the marijuana plants come from?".......A young 22ish deputy turns his head and says, "Right next to corn plants at Home Depot!"
You can only imagine the laughter that chuckled through the room...she still works for the FBI today

And that's who you want investigating this shooting. I'm sure they will get it right?? :huh:


And that's a great story to illustrate why none of the chucklebuckets in that class likely work for the FBI.


Even if the FBI disagrees with the other investigating agencies it won't change anything. Its not like the FBI would step in and arrest the officer.


I didn't say they would. If there is a negligent homicide charge it'll demand a warrant.


This is tragic incident but ultimately the FBI doesn't care and I'm sure there findings will be exactly the same as the other agencies.



I call BS on that. First off the FBI are the best law enforcement officers in the Nation. They not only have the powers of law enforcement but the ability to surveil and conduct domestic intelligence operations nationwide. If you think that the Bureau is the same caliber any of the local agencies in Sonoma then you are likely in one of those agencies and also think that big city people use too many big words. Maybe you applied to the FBI and were rejected. Maybe you are just ignorant of the work they do. But downing them doesn't make you or the locals look any better.

Seriously, and this is no slam on local officers because most of them are good folks... The FBI hires the best because they must. Your average Joe Cop street beater is an average guy/gal in a nation where domestic threats are going to be carried out by people that run the gamut from moron to sky-high friggin' genius. What does a guy with a 115 IQ going to do against someone that is bent to do evil and is running a 149+. Not much. In fact, nothing. So if you think that every situation is Nakatomi Plaza from Die Hard and a good cop with spunk, a gun and good scriptwriter can save the day. Well, you get to define yourself.

As to caring? If caring is entering into the discussion it can stay with the few locals that think that way. The Feds will do the job assigned and simply don't care about "caring". They are, professionals.

This officer will be cleared criminally of any wrong doi g if everything stands as what is being released to the public. If some big cover is unfolded he will get a homicide charge.


We'll see. I'm not making a prediction other than the one regarding the publics behavior.

The one thing that is guaranteed, he will be drug through a nasty civil suit that the city will deffinately pay out seven figures.


I think you hit that one over the centerfield fence.

One other thing, it is a crime in the state of California to posess a replica firearm and not have an orange tip. Airsoft and pellet pistols are covered under the law. So again this is tragic, but it seems the boy committed a crime if the gun pictured on the news was his....maybe the FBI will uncover something else.

Cheers and welcome to reality! :thumbsup:


I never left it. I don't think you guys understand that though. :lol3:
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Re: 13 year old boy with pellet gun killed by police

Postby slowshooter » Wed Oct 30, 2013 12:34 am

Nabs wrote:
Honestly I hope the guy isn't crucified for this before all the facts are in. That guy already has to live with the fact he shot a child with a toy.


He shot a criminal with a firearm that was indistinguishable from a deadly weapon because of an alteration, Whomever altered it should face felony murder charges.


California law does not extend the red tip requirement to air guns. That's why you can buy a BB/pellet gun without them at almost any sporting good store.

If you think that he was obligated to have a red tip, and because he didn't, he is a criminal... You are incorrect.
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Re: 13 year old boy with pellet gun killed by police

Postby ShootThemInTheEye » Wed Oct 30, 2013 11:04 am

It seems to me that altering is clearly illegal as is brandishing .....This could be a pre 2005 gun in which case no red tip was required.....In any case a minor walking down the street with one is asking for trouble......Treat all replicas as if they are real and obey police commands and you will have no problems....Tragic Yes...unavoidable NO!!!

Airsoft in the state of California is defined by the 2008 Dangerous Weapons Control Laws, Title 2 of Part 4 of the Penal Code and Other Selected Code Sections.

Airsoft guns fall under the “BB devices” definition in Section 12001(g):


(b) For purposes of Sections 12551 and 12552, the term “BB device” means any instrument that expels a projectile, such as a BB or a pellet, not exceeding 6 mm caliber, through the force of air pressure, CO2 pressure, or spring action, or any spot marker gun.

Airsoft guns also fall under the “Imitation firearm” definition in Section 12550(c):


(c) “Imitation firearm” means any BB device, toy gun, replica of a firearm, or other device that is so substantially similar in coloration and overall appearance to an existing firearm as to lead a reasonable person to perceive that the device is a firearm.

Sections 12550 through 12556 of the 2008 DWCL clearly defines airsoft. See the below summary and details:
•12550: Definitions of “BB device”, “Firearm” and “Imitation firearm”.
•12551: Selling BB devices to a minor.
•12552: Furnishing BB devices to minors.
•12553: Altering state & federally required markings on imitation firearms.
•12554: Documentation of imitation firearms.
•12555: Imitation firearms commercial, manufacture, display and transport.
•12556: Legally displaying & discharging of imitation firearms.

From the original text:


12550. As used in this article, the following definitions apply:
(a) “BB device” is defined in subdivision (g) of Section 12001.
(b) “Firearm” is defined in subdivision (b) of Section 12001.
(c) “Imitation firearm” means any BB device, toy gun, replica of a firearm, or other device that is so substantially similar in coloration and overall appearance to an existing firearm as to lead a reasonable person to perceive that the device is a firearm.

12551. Every person who sells to a minor any BB device is guilty of a misdemeanor.

12552. (a) Every person who furnishes any BB device to any minor, without the express or implied permission of the parent or legal guardian of the minor, is guilty of a misdemeanor. (b) As used in this section, “furnishes” means any of the following: (1) A loan. (2) A transfer that does not involve a sale.

12553. Any person who changes, alters, removes, or obliterates any coloration or markings that are required for by any applicable state or federal law or regulation, for any imitation firearm, or device described in subdivision (c) of Section 12555, in any way that makes the imitation firearm or device look more like a firearm is guilty of a misdemeanor. This subdivision shall not apply to manufacturer, importer, or distributor of imitation firearms or to the lawful use in theatrical productions, including motion pictures, television, and stage productions. (b) Any manufacturer, importer, or distributor of imitation firearms that fails to comply with any applicable federal law or regulation governing the marking of a toy, look-alike or imitation firearm as defined by federal law or regulation is guilty of a misdemeanor.

12554. (a) Any imitation firearm manufactured after July 1, 2005, shall, at the time of offer for sale in this state, be accompanied by a conspicuous advisory in writing as part of the packaging, but not necessarily affixed to the imitation firearm, to the effect that the product may be mistaken for a firearm by law enforcement officers or others, that altering the coloration or markings required by state or federal law or regulations so as to make the product look more like a firearm is dangerous, and may be a crime, and that brandishing or displaying the product in public may cause confusion and may be a crime. (b) Any manufacturer, importer, or distributor that fails to comply with this advisory for any imitation firearm manufactured after July 1, 2005, shall be liable for a civil fine for each action brought by a city attorney or district attorney of not more than one thousand dollars ($1,000) for the first action, five thousand dollars ($5,000) for the second action, and ten thousand dollars ($10,000) for the third action and each subsequent action.

12555. Any person who, for commercial purposes, purchases, sells, manufactures, ships, transports, distributes, or receives, by mail order or in any other manner, an imitation firearm except as authorized by this section shall be liable for a civil fine in an action brought by the city attorney or the district attorney of not more than ten thousand dollars ($10,000) for each violation. (b) The manufacture, purchase, sale, shipping, transport, distribution, or receipt, by mail or in any other manner, of imitation firearms is authorized if the device is manufactured, purchased, sold, shipped, transported, distributed, or received for any of the following purposes: (1) Solely for export in interstate or foreign commerce. (2) Solely for lawful use in theatrical productions, including motion picture, television, and stage productions. (3) For use in a certified or regulated sporting event or competition. (4) For use in military or civil defense activities, or ceremonial activities. (5) For public displays authorized by public or private schools. (c) As used in this section, “imitation firearm” does not include any of the following:
(1) A nonfiring collector’s replica that is historically significant, and is offered for sale in conjunction with a wall plaque or presentation case.
(2) A BB device, as defined in subdivision (g) of Section 12001.
(3) A device where the entire exterior surface of the device is white, bright red, bright orange, bright yellow, bright green, bright blue, bright pink, or bright purple, either singly or as the predominant color in combination with other colors in any pattern, as provided by federal regulations governing imitation firearms, or where the entire device is constructed of transparent or translucent materials which permits unmistakable observation of the device’s complete contents, as provided by federal regulations governing imitation firearms.

12556.
(a) No person may openly display or expose any imitation firearm, as defined in Section 12550, in a public place.
(b) Violation of this section, except as provided in subdivision (c), is an infraction punishable by a fine of one hundred dollars ($100) for the first offense, and three hundred dollars ($300) for a second offense.
(c) A third or subsequent violation of this section is punishable as a misdemeanor.
(d) Subdivision (a) shall not apply to the following, when the imitation firearm is:
(1) Packaged or concealed so that it is not subject to public viewing.
(2) Displayed or exposed in the course of commerce, including commercial film or video productions, or for service, repair, or restoration of the imitation firearm.
(3) Used in a theatrical production, a motion picture, video, television, or stage production.
(4) Used in conjunction with a certified or regulated sporting event or competition.
(5) Used in conjunction with lawful hunting, or lawful pest control activities.
(6) Used or possessed at certified or regulated public or private shooting ranges.
(7) Used at fairs, exhibitions, expositions, or other similar activities for which a permit has been obtained from a local or state government.
(8) Used in military, civil defense, or civic activities, including flag ceremonies, color guards, parades, award presentations, historical reenactments, and memorials.
(9) Used for public displays authorized by public or private schools or displays that are part of a museum collection.
(10) Used in parades, ceremonies, or other similar activities for which a permit has been obtained from a local or state government.
(11) Displayed on a wall plaque or in a presentation case.
(12) Used in areas where the discharge of a firearm is lawful.
(13) A device where the entire exterior surface of the device is white, bright red, bright orange, bright yellow, bright green, bright blue, bright pink, or bright purple, either singly or as the predominant color in combination with other colors in any pattern, or where the entire device is constructed of transparent or translucent materials which permits unmistakable observation of the device’s complete contents. Merely having an orange tip as provided in federal law and regulations does not satisfy this requirement. The entire surface must be colored or transparent or translucent.
(e) For purposes of this section, the term “public place” means an area open to the public and includes streets, sidewalks, bridges, alleys, plazas, parks, driveways, front yards, parking lots, automobiles, whether moving or not, and buildings open to the general public, including those that serve food or drink, or provide entertainment, and the doorways and entrances to buildings or dwellings.
(f) Nothing in this section shall be construed to preclude prosecution for a violation of Section 171b, 171.5, or 626.10.
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Re: 13 year old boy with pellet gun killed by police

Postby slowshooter » Thu Oct 31, 2013 4:15 am

"California law requires non-firing "imitation weapons" to look like playthings by being brightly colored or transparent. But a 2011 proposal by state Sen. Kevin de León, D-Los Angeles, to extend that requirement to pellet and BB guns - after the shooting of another 13-year-old boy with a replica - failed after manufacturers and retailers lobbied against it."

Snipped that above from a paper.

Not sure if that pellet gun is pre '88 (or 89 since it takes time to manufacture) because that's when the red tip requirement became federal not state law. Should he have had one? I sure think so - especially if it was manufactured later. If it was removed and if a civil case is delivered to the officers, then the person responsible for removal should be in line for legal action as well. But it sure won't get a negligent homicide charge (sorry Nabs!).

Would the red tip have made difference? I would like to think so. But who knows?
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Re: 13 year old boy with pellet gun killed by police

Postby ShootThemInTheEye » Thu Oct 31, 2013 12:03 pm

My understanding is Federal law from the 80's mandated "imitation" guns have brightly colored tips and California law made it illegal to alter those tips in 2005?....You may very well have a negligent homicide charge against the person that altered it.

The interesting thing about the law to me is the must have conspicuous advisory tag (12254). This is trying to inform everyone that buys these things that they are easily mistaken for real guns....This shooting was not an isolated incident It happens quite a bit...If the person that altered it is the same person that bought it with the advisory attached there's your case

As far as a case against the police. It will probably be brought but I doubt it goes anywhere unless your FBI calls this a bad shoot.

Talking to a police friend of mine they are trained to respond to a deadly threat with deadly force. The red tip might be a factor in their decision to shoot or not but not the only one. Bad guys are painting their real guns with red tips these days. Unless this was a bad shoot I put this shooting on bad parenting perhaps the school system could offer classes that teach respect for all guns toys or not...Some parents in the land of liberals wont allow their kids to even have a toy gun then when they happen upon one they have no clue how to respect it. Knowledge is king.....

Cops have a tough job and the way this thread started "what were they thinking" rubbed a lot of us the wrong way....just my 2 cents
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Re: 13 year old boy with pellet gun killed by police

Postby fish dog » Thu Oct 31, 2013 1:52 pm

I'm fairly new to DHC.com so maybe someone can advise me. What has this got to do with California duck hunting? Shouldn't this be in the "Controversial Issues" Forum?
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Re: 13 year old boy with pellet gun killed by police

Postby Tyrtruion » Thu Oct 31, 2013 2:14 pm

I work for the USDOJ with the Bureau of Prisons. I get arrest info and intel all the time and over the last 10 or so years there have been quite a high number of gang members arrested with firearms that have day glow orange and red tape around the tip of the muzzle...
They are one step ahead of us and we just play catch up. I also work side by side several FBI agents, US Marshall's and pretty much all the govt acronyms... All of which are claiming to be the best LEO's around. Then you hear about secret service leaving guns in bathroom sinks, air Marshall's taking up skirt pics, and you realize there's screw ups in every department...

A lot of what cops deal with involves information and you all have have forgot the most important info in all of this. The deputy had knowledge, that a kid, who was 11 years young, brought a fun to a school in sparks Nevada the day before and murdered a teacher while wounding 2 other children.
That will put you on edge.
In a situation like this the cop doesn't want to gamble his life vs the chance that this isn't a real gun nor should he have to.
It is a horrible outcome tho.
And I don't think there's any "right" answer other than to educate our kids, guns aren't toys, and toys aren't guns. No good can come from intertwining the two in my opinion.

Ohhh... And Nabs... I concede. Flappers are legal.
Trust me. 8 hours in a pond with leaky waders, to not fire a single shot... Is still better than work.
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Re: 13 year old boy with pellet gun killed by police

Postby Waynegor » Fri Nov 01, 2013 10:07 am

This is not a discussion of law!
The question is the sheriff overreact?
Even if the kid overstep the law, is that the way to handle the situation? :no:
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Re: 13 year old boy with pellet gun killed by police

Postby ShootThemInTheEye » Fri Nov 01, 2013 10:36 am

Waynegor wrote:This is not a discussion of law!
The question is the sheriff overreact?
Even if the kid overstep the law, is that the way to handle the situation? :no:


Well if the kid pointed the gun at the cop YES that is the way to handle the situation...Time will tell on that...In my mind 3 things needed to happen to cause this....

1. the kid illegally brandished the imitation gun in public (shouldn't get you shot)
2. the gun didn't have the red safety tip on it ( shouldn't get you shot either)
3. pointed the gun at the cops....This will get you shot 99% of the time

If he didn't point the gun at them I am all for the overreacting point of view but all reports are that he did and if the parents didn't allow the first 2 to happen the third never would have.


Here's a hunting topic for fish dog....Why do my snow geese all taste like fish? :sarcmark:

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Re: 13 year old boy with pellet gun killed by police

Postby slowshooter » Fri Nov 01, 2013 2:39 pm

Honestly? I doubt the officer will be charged. Officers have the ultimate out for a good reason. If they feel threatened they can shoot. It's the ultimate "stand your ground" law and while it's critical that officers have that umbrella as a matter of self preservation - it's also a privilege that can be abused.

All a mentally ill officer has to do articulate is that they feel threatened - and they are scot-free.

The officer doesn't remember identifying himself as the police. But he felt threatened.
The boy was shot in the back. But the officer felt threatened.
The other sheriff didn't even have time to get out of the car before the other sheriff started shooting because again he felt threatened.

What that means is that it doesn't matter what that kid did. Or if he moved very little. Once the officer articulates to his commanders that he felt threatened... Any shooting that happened can be called legitimate.

On the other hand, the same officer that shot the kid also pulled a gun on a motorist twice during a traffic stop and was asked by the motorist "Sir, is there something wrong with you?".

...And the same officer is now scrubbing his internet history as well

Do I think the guy was a little on the "wound too damn tight" side? Yeah, I do. Was it murder under color of the law? That's not for me to decide. IMO even if that officer made every mistake in the book, from not identifying himself to being too quick to pull the trigger, and then shooting some kid in the back. I think that the blue curtain will protect him.

As to what this has to do with duck hunting? Some of us (meaning me) walk down highways or through public areas with shotguns that don't have red tips. If you carry waders in a pack and are in street clothes you may not look like a duck hunter...

What are you going to do when someone behind you yells at you to drop your gun - and you don't even know it's the police talking? Going to drop it? Before this shooting happened I may not have.
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Re: 13 year old boy with pellet gun killed by police

Postby yellowlabhunter » Fri Nov 01, 2013 5:13 pm

In my opinion... this horse has probably been beat enough?! Legs get back to happier/healthier discussions... ducks...dogs and our short season. If the deputy was out of policy and proven a bad shoot then it will be dealt with. Again if we were not there we don't know. We are full of armchair QBs on this site....especially those who automatically have issues with most cops in general. There are bad cops....but also a small percentage...just like outlaw duck hunters....those who shoot over their limits and abusing the sport in other ways. It isn't a secret that some cops fall through the cracks...all the bad ones cannot be weeded out....but many do. Again....we don't hear about the cops who buy shoes and meals for the homeless....or get a mom and her son a motel room because she lost her purse and is stranded without resources.....we hear only about the ones such as this incident. One question....how many of these incidents do we hear about like this? I will tell you....not many! This is due to most of these men and women who strap on a firearm are professionals and do the right thing. If you do this job for the money you will be highly disappointed....its much more than that. Be well.

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Re: 13 year old boy with pellet gun killed by police

Postby slowshooter » Fri Nov 01, 2013 5:51 pm

yellowlabhunter wrote: Again....we don't hear about the cops who buy shoes and meals for the homeless....or get a mom and her son a motel room because she lost her purse and is stranded without resources.....
Dave


Dave,
I agree with you 100 percent here.

The press does lean towards sensationalism because they believe it buys them audiences. No one is interested when someone does good and there are plenty of twisted up people that say that folks only do good out of self interest or publicity. That's how knotted up and wrong some people are when it comes to lending help.

Probably another reason to reinforce the fact I hate people in general... But can still find a little love for humanity. :lol3:

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Re: 13 year old boy with pellet gun killed by police

Postby QuackerSmacker498 » Fri Nov 01, 2013 11:00 pm

As mentioned above, its duck season and we should be talking about duck hunting..blah, blah, and why are we beating a dead horse? Agreed on all fronts, but this tragic event is fascinating for simple debate and more importantly, how we keep coming back to see the others opinion. Don't like, don't read any further.

If everyone closed their eyes for a minute and thought about the facts and could imagine being the passenger officer sitting in that police car. Driving through a known gang hangout area, seeing a young man holding an assault rifle. The veteran police officer you are with 24 years of experience, rangemaster, and Field Training Officer and you see a young man holding an assault rifle in an urban environment.

Do you keep driving and call it in?
Do you stop and verbally engage the armed person?
Do you ignore and let the armed person harm or kill someone?
Do you ignore the oath you gave to protect and serve?
Do you announce your presence and when the subject doesn't drop the weapon, do you try to have a conversation with a suspect swinging a high caliber rifle that is very effective at killing over 300 yards and will kill you with any body or head shot.

Or do you stand behind the door of your patrol car as taught in the crappy police academy while the gunman turns you, your partner, and your patrol car into swiss cheese.?

Or do you man F-up, verbally engage and give the command to drop the weapon and when the subject turns gun in hand, you deliver 7 of 8 shots you intended to deliver be cause you don't want to die.

Go take a pistol and carbine course at one of the various shooting schools and make sure you shoot turn style pop up targets. Some of the targets have hostages, armed suspects, some are waiters serving coffee. You have less than 2 seconds to identify, engage and neutralize the threat all while maintaining discipline and not having stray rounds strike civilians. That's how good shooters train and become deadly accurate in crappy situations. Its the will to survive, not the will to talk about it while the suspect is holding a gun. Those cops end up dead. As stated this is reality not the movies. 2 seconds or less and that officer is dead. You say 7-8 rounds are to many......most of your FBI studies( slow) will show you that is spot on. Officers are trained to shoot until the threat has stopped. You say there was never threat? PC 245 a 1. They charge every idiot who points a gun at someone in this state with this charge.

If you have any disbelief the gun held by the young man did not look real, please do not procreate , as it willy only leed to more events just like this.

If you believe adults only committ violent crimes against police and society, please go visit your local CYA or Ranch for sh-t head kids.....none of them are in there for stealing cars and burglarizing homes. They are all violent in youth detention facilities at the state level.
And then go get chemically castrated to prevent anymore armed "kids" from getting gunned down on the sidewalk.

Does anyone have disbelief the young man was involved in gang activities? If you do, please watch the news, as they show his family and friends carrying the casket. Did you see those guys dressed in red with the various gang tattoos on their faces and necks? Hello those are called gang members. Further, young gang members will often challenge police with violence and physically harm people to get in the gang. BIRDS OF A FEATHER FLOCK TOGETHER? Ha, there was duck joke for you.

It sucks this young man was shot while committing a public offense, but this Deputy was only doing his job. The Deputy seems to be well respected in his department by the sounds of his experience. You don't get to be in those positions if your an idiot of a cop and they certainly won't keep you in those spots for liability reasons.


Finally, I say, good shoot, and excellent courage under pressure Deputy?
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Re: 13 year old boy with pellet gun killed by police

Postby yellowlabhunter » Fri Nov 01, 2013 11:22 pm

QuackerSmacker498 wrote:As mentioned above, its duck season and we should be talking about duck hunting..blah, blah, and why are we beating a dead horse? Agreed on all fronts, but this tragic event is fascinating for simple debate and more importantly, how we keep coming back to see the others opinion. Don't like, don't read any further.

If everyone closed their eyes for a minute and thought about the facts and could imagine being the passenger officer sitting in that police car. Driving through a known gang hangout area, seeing a young man holding an assault rifle. The veteran police officer you are with 24 years of experience, rangemaster, and Field Training Officer and you see a young man holding an assault rifle in an urban environment.

Do you keep driving and call it in?
Do you stop and verbally engage the armed person?
Do you ignore and let the armed person harm or kill someone?
Do you ignore the oath you gave to protect and serve?
Do you announce your presence and when the subject doesn't drop the weapon, do you try to have a conversation with a suspect swinging a high caliber rifle that is very effective at killing over 300 yards and will kill you with any body or head shot.




Or do you stand behind the door of your patrol car as taught in the crappy police academy while the gunman turns you, your partner, and your patrol car into swiss cheese.?

Or do you man F-up, verbally engage and give the command to drop the weapon and when the subject turns gun in hand, you deliver 7 of 8 shots you intended to deliver be cause you don't want to die.

Go take a pistol and carbine course at one of the various shooting schools and make sure you shoot turn style pop up targets. Some of the targets have hostages, armed suspects, some are waiters serving coffee. You have less than 2 seconds to identify, engage and neutralize the threat all while maintaining discipline and not having stray rounds strike civilians. That's how good shooters train and become deadly accurate in crappy situations. Its the will to survive, not the will to talk about it while the suspect is holding a gun. Those cops end up dead. As stated this is reality not the movies. 2 seconds or less and that officer is dead. You say 7-8 rounds are to many......most of your FBI studies( slow) will show you that is spot on. Officers are trained to shoot until the threat has stopped. You say there was never threat? PC 245 a 1. They charge every idiot who points a gun at someone in this state with this charge.

If you have any disbelief the gun held by the young man did not look real, please do not procreate , as it willy only leed to more events just like this.

If you believe adults only committ violent crimes against police and society, please go visit your local CYA or Ranch for sh-t head kids.....none of them are in there for stealing cars and burglarizing homes. They are all violent in youth detention facilities at the state level.
And then go get chemically castrated to prevent anymore armed "kids" from getting gunned down on the sidewalk.

Does anyone have disbelief the young man was involved in gang activities? If you do, please watch the news, as they show his family and friends carrying the casket. Did you see those guys dressed in red with the various gang tattoos on their faces and necks? Hello those are called gang members. Further, young gang members will often challenge police with violence and physically harm people to get in the gang. BIRDS OF A FEATHER FLOCK TOGETHER? Ha, there was duck joke for you.

It sucks this young man was shot while committing a public offense, but this Deputy was only doing his job. The Deputy seems to be well respected in his department by the sounds of his experience. You don't get to be in those positions if your an idiot of a cop and they certainly won't keep you in those spots for liability reasons.


Finally, I say, good shoot, and excellent courage under pressure Deputy?



Bravo! Well stated and taking the time to write reasonably and articulately was well received. I understand and know where you are coming from....I will keep it at that. Be well.

Dave
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Re: 13 year old boy with pellet gun killed by police

Postby Indaswamp » Sun Nov 03, 2013 12:30 am

fish dog wrote:I'm fairly new to DHC.com so maybe someone can advise me. What has this got to do with California duck hunting? Shouldn't this be in the "Controversial Issues" Forum?

It should be in the Controversial Issues forum, but I see now why slowshooter refuses to defend his posts on the Controversial Issues forum.
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Re: 13 year old boy with pellet gun killed by police

Postby Indaswamp » Sun Nov 03, 2013 12:31 am

slowshooter wrote:Probably another reason to reinforce the fact I hate people in general...

No surprise there....It's pretty obvious.
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Re: 13 year old boy with pellet gun killed by police

Postby slowshooter » Sun Nov 03, 2013 4:24 am

Indaswamp wrote:
fish dog wrote:I'm fairly new to DHC.com so maybe someone can advise me. What has this got to do with California duck hunting? Shouldn't this be in the "Controversial Issues" Forum?

It should be in the Controversial Issues forum, but I see now why slowshooter refuses to defend his posts on the Controversial Issues forum.


Okay, that made no sense. But hey... You tried. :lol3:
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