Hypersonic is Pointless???

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Hypersonic is Pointless???

Postby duckshooter » Fri Feb 28, 2014 3:31 pm

I would love for someone to check my math on this but I was bored at work and just decided to run some numbers and determined that the lead difference between 1,450 feet per second and 1,600 feet per second at 25 yards on a duck flying 25 milers per hour is .0070008 feet or .084096 inches. This would also suggest that the total lead on a duck flying 25 miles per hour at 25 yards would be just under an inch which doesn't feel right. I just guessed at average duck flight speed when buzzing decoys and distance so maybe those are way off. Here's my math:
1,600 feet / second gets to 25 yards (75 feet) in .0468 seconds
1,450 feet / second gets to 25 yards )75 feet) in .0517 seconds
the difference is .0048 seconds (hypersonic gets to 25 yards .0048 seconds faster than regular shot going 1,450 feet per second)

A duck traveling 25 miles (5,280 feet) per hour is going 1.467 feet per second

1.467 feet x .0048 seconds = .007008 feet or .084096 inches
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Re: Hypersonic is Pointless???

Postby jmonte35 » Fri Feb 28, 2014 3:41 pm

duckshooter wrote:I would love for someone to check my math on this but I was bored at work and just decided to run some numbers and determined that the lead difference between 1,450 feet per second and 1,600 feet per second at 25 yards on a duck flying 25 milers per hour is .0070008 feet or .084096 inches. This would also suggest that the total lead on a duck flying 25 miles per hour at 25 yards would be just under an inch which doesn't feel right. I just guessed at average duck flight speed when buzzing decoys and distance so maybe those are way off. Here's my math:
1,600 feet / second gets to 25 yards (75 feet) in .0468 seconds
1,450 feet / second gets to 25 yards )75 feet) in .0517 seconds
the difference is .0048 seconds (hypersonic gets to 25 yards .0048 seconds faster than regular shot going 1,450 feet per second)

A duck traveling 25 miles (5,280 feet) per hour is going 1.467 feet per second

1.467 feet x .0048 seconds = .007008 feet or .084096 inches


Your math is wrong. I can walk faster than 1.4 feet per second. I think you're doing the math for 1 MPH
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Re: Hypersonic is Pointless???

Postby AJCsurf » Fri Feb 28, 2014 4:10 pm

The speed of the shot isn't linear either....

As soon as it leaves your barrel its slowing down from air resistance. Now it there wasn't any than your x velocity vector would never change but your Y is obviously changing at a rate directly relative to gravity.

25mph is 36.6667 ft/s
distance its gotta move is 25yd or 75 ft.

1600 ft/s over that 75ft means it takes 0.046875 seconds to get there.
1450 ft/s over that 75ft means it takes 0.051724 seconds to get there.

How far the duck travels in those times (i.e. your lead):
If you shoot 1600 fps ammo:
0.046875s x 36.6667 ft/s = 1.719 ft
0.051724s x 36.6667 ft/s = 1.896 ft

The difference in lead is 0.177ft or about 2-1/8 inches.

Now this is the difference in lead AT the bird, not the physical distance at your barrel tip.

how do we miss? :lol3:
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Re: Hypersonic is Pointless???

Postby duckshooter » Fri Feb 28, 2014 4:35 pm

jmonte35 wrote:
duckshooter wrote:I would love for someone to check my math on this but I was bored at work and just decided to run some numbers and determined that the lead difference between 1,450 feet per second and 1,600 feet per second at 25 yards on a duck flying 25 milers per hour is .0070008 feet or .084096 inches. This would also suggest that the total lead on a duck flying 25 miles per hour at 25 yards would be just under an inch which doesn't feel right. I just guessed at average duck flight speed when buzzing decoys and distance so maybe those are way off. Here's my math:
1,600 feet / second gets to 25 yards (75 feet) in .0468 seconds
1,450 feet / second gets to 25 yards )75 feet) in .0517 seconds
the difference is .0048 seconds (hypersonic gets to 25 yards .0048 seconds faster than regular shot going 1,450 feet per second)

A duck traveling 25 miles (5,280 feet) per hour is going 1.467 feet per second

1.467 feet x .0048 seconds = .007008 feet or .084096 inches


Your math is wrong. I can walk faster than 1.4 feet per second. I think you're doing the math for 1 MPH


AJCsurf wrote:25mph is 36.6667 ft/s


Yes, thanks!! It felt like I was missing something with that 1" lead thing. A 20.6" lead on a bird at 25 yards feels much better. A 2 inch difference is material but as you say that's at the bird not at the barrel. Who's smart enough to figure out the difference at the tip of the barrel? It's got to be some kind of small fraction of an inch.
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Re: Hypersonic is Pointless???

Postby duckshooter » Fri Feb 28, 2014 6:32 pm

Who's smart enough to figure out the difference at the tip of the barrel? It's got to be some kind of small fraction of an inch.[/quote]

Never mind, I decided you don't have to be that smart after all and I would just do it. That being said, I did completely whiff on the first question on the test so... Assuming a 28" gun barrel, a 2" lead difference out at a distance of 25 yards (900") would be .0622" at the tip of the barrel or roughly this line: _
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Re: Hypersonic is Pointless???

Postby yolodc » Fri Feb 28, 2014 6:43 pm

My experience with it isn't good. its expensive, dosen't pattern well, and tears guns up.
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Re: Hypersonic is Pointless???

Postby nitram » Fri Feb 28, 2014 6:48 pm

Just put your bead, on their beak, and squeeze. They will fall from the sky.
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Re: Hypersonic is Pointless???

Postby mendotakiller » Fri Feb 28, 2014 10:26 pm

If you shoot hypersonic you might as well be hiding in the weeds with a bucket of popcorn and throw that at them. and as far as the math goes why dont you calculate the bird at 40 yards? 25 seems a bit close....dosent matter what load you use when there that close. just pull to the beak and pull the trigger lol
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Re: Hypersonic is Pointless???

Postby slowshooter » Sat Mar 01, 2014 2:13 am

I'm a hypersonic bigot.

When I see people using the stuff I presume the following:

That guy can't hunt well enough to get birds close enough to use a regular old shell on them.

That guy doesn't shoot enough to recognize that additional recoil that adds nothing and is a genuine problem for remounting the gun - then getting on that second bird.

That guy is easily swayed by marketing claims.

That guy doesn't reload and and if he did that would be the last load he would want to make.

Don't be that guy. :lol3:
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Re: Hypersonic is Pointless???

Postby Bootlipkiller » Sat Mar 01, 2014 2:23 am

mendotakiller wrote:If you shoot hypersonic you might as well be hiding in the weeds with a bucket of popcorn and throw that at them. and as far as the math goes why dont you calculate the bird at 40 yards? 25 seems a bit close....dosent matter what load you use when there that close. just pull to the beak and pull the trigger lol


40 yards seems a bit far to me, 25 to 30, just right but I guess I like my porridge just right.


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Re: Hypersonic is Pointless???

Postby Duck_Popper » Sat Mar 01, 2014 2:24 am

Image
Duck Popper: Congrats man and guess you need to change your name to "Duck Poppa"

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Re: Hypersonic is Pointless???

Postby fish dog » Sat Mar 01, 2014 5:47 am

I know you're mainly talking leading the bird here but would the faster loads have more know down power resulting in more clean kills and less cripples to swim away into the tules to be lost? I don't know, just wondering out loud. I'm thinking maybe so, especially with how steel slows down once it leaves the barrel.
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Re: Hypersonic is Pointless???

Postby friedcoot » Sat Mar 01, 2014 10:26 am

fish dog wrote:I know you're mainly talking leading the bird here but would the faster loads have more know down power resulting in more clean kills and less cripples to swim away into the tules to be lost? I don't know, just wondering out loud. I'm thinking maybe so, especially with how steel slows down once it leaves the barrel.


Fish dog is dead on. The reason for speed is to get the hitting energy. Kind of like comparing a router to a shaper. One runs @ a higher speed to get the cutting energy because it has a much smaller motor. On the other hand, there comes a point that too much speed can blow out your pattern. If you look @ ballistic products and their load recipes, you will see some very high speed loads. Also, you might notice the payload is reduced in order to increase speed. If you shoot an auto loader, you probably won't feel that hard kick but, if your shooting a single, double, or pump, your going to feel it.

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Re: Hypersonic is Pointless???

Postby Privileged hunter » Sat Mar 01, 2014 2:38 pm

They don't eject out of my gun very well. There longer then your average 3 inch shell.
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Re: Hypersonic is Pointless???

Postby mendotakiller » Sat Mar 01, 2014 3:07 pm

Bootlip-yea 25 to 30 is perfect but 40 is a very killable shot. I would shoot ducks and geese all day at that range.
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Re: Hypersonic is Pointless???

Postby Mugzwump » Sat Mar 01, 2014 3:42 pm

There are a lot of variables when looking at how much lead is gained or lost with velocity.

The way I do it, quickly, it's not exactly accurate but it works with a certain amount of fudge, is to just run the numbers with disregard to the pellet slowing down, like you did... but then run the numbers at the final velocity of the pellet at that distance... there are charts you can just pick from.. figure to 40 yards a 1500 fps will be around 800 fps or less ( just guessing here) So run that number and then you know its between the first run and second run...

make sense? You're lead of 1.8 feet there would be closer to 2.5 feet. Also ducks move a lot faster than 25 mph... probably at full tilt without the wind in excess of 50 or 60 mph. The lead for a fast 60 mph bird at 40 yards should be around 6 to 10 feet ahead of the beak. At the bird not the barrel. Use basic trig and the angle in degrees if you want to use the barrel as reference. ie.. bird is zero degrees and lead is 15 degrees off.. cool thing is this is relatively constant over changes in distance as long as bird speed and MV are constant. Drawing a picture helps too... lol. It gets crazy when you start thinking about how the wind affects the lead. Everything you know goes to crap.

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Re: Hypersonic is Pointless???

Postby duckshooter » Sat Mar 01, 2014 9:05 pm

mendotakiller wrote:If you shoot hypersonic you might as well be hiding in the weeds with a bucket of popcorn and throw that at them. and as far as the math goes why dont you calculate the bird at 40 yards? 25 seems a bit close....dosent matter what load you use when there that close. just pull to the beak and pull the trigger lol

You could plug in any distance or bird flight speed you want and come up with the lead difference but as a reference we could just double the 2" difference at 25 yards to get 4" difference at 50 yards. So the lead at the barrel for 50 yards would be roughly __.
Mugzwump wrote:There are a lot of variables when looking at how much lead is gained or lost with velocity.

The way I do it, quickly, it's not exactly accurate but it works with a certain amount of fudge, is to just run the numbers with disregard to the pellet slowing down, like you did... but then run the numbers at the final velocity of the pellet at that distance... there are charts you can just pick from.. figure to 40 yards a 1500 fps will be around 800 fps or less ( just guessing here) So run that number and then you know its between the first run and second run...

make sense? You're lead of 1.8 feet there would be closer to 2.5 feet. Also ducks move a lot faster than 25 mph... probably at full tilt without the wind in excess of 50 or 60 mph. The lead for a fast 60 mph bird at 40 yards should be around 6 to 10 feet ahead of the beak. At the bird not the barrel. Use basic trig and the angle in degrees if you want to use the barrel as reference. ie.. bird is zero degrees and lead is 15 degrees off.. cool thing is this is relatively constant over changes in distance as long as bird speed and MV are constant. Drawing a picture helps too... lol. It gets crazy when you start thinking about how the wind affects the lead. Everything you know goes to crap.

Mugz.


I'm assuming both shots will slow down at roughly the same rate so that would just be a constant and could be thrown out of the equation for simplicity sake.
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Re: Hypersonic is Pointless???

Postby Mugzwump » Sat Mar 01, 2014 9:25 pm

duckshooter wrote:
mendotakiller wrote:If you shoot hypersonic you might as well be hiding in the weeds with a bucket of popcorn and throw that at them. and as far as the math goes why dont you calculate the bird at 40 yards? 25 seems a bit close....dosent matter what load you use when there that close. just pull to the beak and pull the trigger lol

You could plug in any distance or bird flight speed you want and come up with the lead difference but as a reference we could just double the 2" difference at 25 yards to get 4" difference at 50 yards. So the lead at the barrel for 50 yards would be roughly __.
Mugzwump wrote:There are a lot of variables when looking at how much lead is gained or lost with velocity.

The way I do it, quickly, it's not exactly accurate but it works with a certain amount of fudge, is to just run the numbers with disregard to the pellet slowing down, like you did... but then run the numbers at the final velocity of the pellet at that distance... there are charts you can just pick from.. figure to 40 yards a 1500 fps will be around 800 fps or less ( just guessing here) So run that number and then you know its between the first run and second run...

make sense? You're lead of 1.8 feet there would be closer to 2.5 feet. Also ducks move a lot faster than 25 mph... probably at full tilt without the wind in excess of 50 or 60 mph. The lead for a fast 60 mph bird at 40 yards should be around 6 to 10 feet ahead of the beak. At the bird not the barrel. Use basic trig and the angle in degrees if you want to use the barrel as reference. ie.. bird is zero degrees and lead is 15 degrees off.. cool thing is this is relatively constant over changes in distance as long as bird speed and MV are constant. Drawing a picture helps too... lol. It gets crazy when you start thinking about how the wind affects the lead. Everything you know goes to crap.

Mugz.


I'm assuming both shots will slow down at roughly the same rate so that would just be a constant and could be thrown out of the equation for simplicity sake.


Sorry... both "shots"are the SAME shot. Just one is muzzle velocity(on the box) and the other is final velocity at the target. With the two points you can use very basic physics to give yourself a min and max lead. You know the lead is more than that calculated by muzzle velocity and less than that calculated with final velocity. It's not totally correct as the real answer lies somewhere in between... with out knowing the actual rate of deceleration, or air resistance for each pellet size and shape we use, as far as I know it's the easiest way to get a good idea of what lead should be other than just gaining more experience in the field. It's very much red-neck science here... and of course it's all based on a very huge variable which is the ducks flight speed. Part of why I like this method is that whole "in between" part that sort of makes up for your errors in judging the birds speed... and gives you a good excuse for when you miss.

Obviously if you were really into it you could look up all the formula and do it right.

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Re: Hypersonic is Pointless???

Postby duckshooter » Sat Mar 01, 2014 10:14 pm

Mugzwump wrote:
duckshooter wrote:
mendotakiller wrote:If you shoot hypersonic you might as well be hiding in the weeds with a bucket of popcorn and throw that at them. and as far as the math goes why dont you calculate the bird at 40 yards? 25 seems a bit close....dosent matter what load you use when there that close. just pull to the beak and pull the trigger lol

You could plug in any distance or bird flight speed you want and come up with the lead difference but as a reference we could just double the 2" difference at 25 yards to get 4" difference at 50 yards. So the lead at the barrel for 50 yards would be roughly __.
Mugzwump wrote:There are a lot of variables when looking at how much lead is gained or lost with velocity.

The way I do it, quickly, it's not exactly accurate but it works with a certain amount of fudge, is to just run the numbers with disregard to the pellet slowing down, like you did... but then run the numbers at the final velocity of the pellet at that distance... there are charts you can just pick from.. figure to 40 yards a 1500 fps will be around 800 fps or less ( just guessing here) So run that number and then you know its between the first run and second run...

make sense? You're lead of 1.8 feet there would be closer to 2.5 feet. Also ducks move a lot faster than 25 mph... probably at full tilt without the wind in excess of 50 or 60 mph. The lead for a fast 60 mph bird at 40 yards should be around 6 to 10 feet ahead of the beak. At the bird not the barrel. Use basic trig and the angle in degrees if you want to use the barrel as reference. ie.. bird is zero degrees and lead is 15 degrees off.. cool thing is this is relatively constant over changes in distance as long as bird speed and MV are constant. Drawing a picture helps too... lol. It gets crazy when you start thinking about how the wind affects the lead. Everything you know goes to crap.

Mugz.


I'm assuming both shots will slow down at roughly the same rate so that would just be a constant and could be thrown out of the equation for simplicity sake.


Sorry... both "shots"are the SAME shot. Just one is muzzle velocity(on the box) and the other is final velocity at the target. With the two points you can use very basic physics to give yourself a min and max lead. You know the lead is more than that calculated by muzzle velocity and less than that calculated with final velocity. It's not totally correct as the real answer lies somewhere in between... with out knowing the actual rate of deceleration, or air resistance for each pellet size and shape we use, as far as I know it's the easiest way to get a good idea of what lead should be other than just gaining more experience in the field. It's very much red-neck science here... and of course it's all based on a very huge variable which is the ducks flight speed. Part of why I like this method is that whole "in between" part that sort of makes up for your errors in judging the birds speed... and gives you a good excuse for when you miss.

Obviously if you were really into it you could look up all the formula and do it right.

Mugz.


When I say two shots I mean shot 1 being the regular shot at 1,450 fps and shot 2 being the hypersonic shot at 1,600 fps. Both will decelerate at roughly the same rate so that shouldn't factor into the equation to determine the difference in lead between the two.
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Re: Hypersonic is Pointless???

Postby Mugzwump » Sat Mar 01, 2014 11:02 pm

duckshooter wrote:
Mugzwump wrote:
duckshooter wrote:
mendotakiller wrote:If you shoot hypersonic you might as well be hiding in the weeds with a bucket of popcorn and throw that at them. and as far as the math goes why dont you calculate the bird at 40 yards? 25 seems a bit close....dosent matter what load you use when there that close. just pull to the beak and pull the trigger lol

You could plug in any distance or bird flight speed you want and come up with the lead difference but as a reference we could just double the 2" difference at 25 yards to get 4" difference at 50 yards. So the lead at the barrel for 50 yards would be roughly __.
Mugzwump wrote:There are a lot of variables when looking at how much lead is gained or lost with velocity.

The way I do it, quickly, it's not exactly accurate but it works with a certain amount of fudge, is to just run the numbers with disregard to the pellet slowing down, like you did... but then run the numbers at the final velocity of the pellet at that distance... there are charts you can just pick from.. figure to 40 yards a 1500 fps will be around 800 fps or less ( just guessing here) So run that number and then you know its between the first run and second run...

make sense? You're lead of 1.8 feet there would be closer to 2.5 feet. Also ducks move a lot faster than 25 mph... probably at full tilt without the wind in excess of 50 or 60 mph. The lead for a fast 60 mph bird at 40 yards should be around 6 to 10 feet ahead of the beak. At the bird not the barrel. Use basic trig and the angle in degrees if you want to use the barrel as reference. ie.. bird is zero degrees and lead is 15 degrees off.. cool thing is this is relatively constant over changes in distance as long as bird speed and MV are constant. Drawing a picture helps too... lol. It gets crazy when you start thinking about how the wind affects the lead. Everything you know goes to crap.

Mugz.


I'm assuming both shots will slow down at roughly the same rate so that would just be a constant and could be thrown out of the equation for simplicity sake.


Sorry... both "shots"are the SAME shot. Just one is muzzle velocity(on the box) and the other is final velocity at the target. With the two points you can use very basic physics to give yourself a min and max lead. You know the lead is more than that calculated by muzzle velocity and less than that calculated with final velocity. It's not totally correct as the real answer lies somewhere in between... with out knowing the actual rate of deceleration, or air resistance for each pellet size and shape we use, as far as I know it's the easiest way to get a good idea of what lead should be other than just gaining more experience in the field. It's very much red-neck science here... and of course it's all based on a very huge variable which is the ducks flight speed. Part of why I like this method is that whole "in between" part that sort of makes up for your errors in judging the birds speed... and gives you a good excuse for when you miss.

Obviously if you were really into it you could look up all the formula and do it right.

Mugz.


When I say two shots I mean shot 1 being the regular shot at 1,450 fps and shot 2 being the hypersonic shot at 1,600 fps. Both will decelerate at roughly the same rate so that shouldn't factor into the equation to determine the difference in lead between the two.


Ah... actually the faster pellet will slow down at a faster rate. What that difference in depends on how much faster it is. The force of air resistance is squared as velocity increases. So as you increase velocity the air drag on the pellet increases in magnitudes of itself. Eventually the fast pellet will slow down so much as to allow the slower pellet to sort of "catch up",(though this will never actually happen). Just using shot 1 and 2 as examples (and doing my best to guestimate the numbers) the 1450 fps shot at 40 yards will be around 800 fps where as the 1650 fps would only be around 850 fps at 40 yards... at which point they begin to slow down at a more similar rate. Keep in mind the faster pellet will still reach the 40 yard mark a lot quicker because of its initial "high-speed", and the slower pellet will never pass the fast pellet.



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Re: Hypersonic is Pointless???

Postby slowshooter » Sat Mar 01, 2014 11:24 pm

So all we have to do accelerate the shot on a consistent gradient so it matches the point that the pellet explodes from air resistance ala a meteorite - and rIght next to duck vitals.

I'll start working on that reload right away. :lol3:
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Re: Hypersonic is Pointless???

Postby nastynate » Sun Mar 02, 2014 4:19 am

The picture explains it but just use a similar triangles ratio. My numbers are a bit rounded but it's the same crap. The Guns length is from the person eyes to the barrel this will vary obviously. ( I put it at as 3ft.) Distance in pic is measured from the tip of the gun.
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Re: Hypersonic is Pointless???

Postby 3200 man » Sun Mar 02, 2014 8:23 am

If you really want to fine-tune these equations and grafts , stay with a velocity more closely to what you shoot most !
Knowing that 150 fps more is really no difference in pellet speed but , if you're using a shot size large enough to be
better in the wind longer distance shots will be more successful as experience will dictate how far in front you need to lead
a target ! Knowing the true measurement of forward allowance will only cause you to look at the barrel/bead , this will
( for sure) make you miss the target but , a good mount of the gun and the use of Butt , Belly , Beck , swing-through will
assure you success in the field , Not Velocity .
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Re: Hypersonic is Pointless???

Postby straightsixes » Sun Mar 02, 2014 9:19 am

Some simple things to remember for good shotgunning:

1. The change in perceived lead from super fast loads (1700 fps) to average loads (1400 fps) is single digit inches at 40 yards.

2. The pattern of a shotgun is considered roughly 30 inches.

3. As seen above the average pattern is going to cover the "change" in lead from super fast, super recoiling high speed loads or just your average loads. So don't worry about it. I have had multiple shotgunning students give me their waterfowl loads and lead target loads... then I load their gun as they shoot targets. They quickly realize that the leads don't change even down to a 1200 fps lead load.

4. While I enjoy reading the math above... when people trying to shoot a moving target... if one starts to think/measure its the kiss of death. While they are trying to calculate the shot... the gun barrel slows - the target doesn't and then they get to ponder how they missed.

5. The density of steel is low compared to lead or other non toxic alternatives on the market. Steel is NOT good for long range shooting. If you think you are going to routinely shoot (effectively) beyond 40 yards... look for a more dense alternative.

6. Recoil is real and additive. Be careful.
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Re: Hypersonic is Pointless???

Postby Mugzwump » Sun Mar 02, 2014 9:44 am

while i totally agree with 3200 and straightsix, knowing the physics behind the practice helped me a lot over the years.

I don't go around calculating my shots as the birds fly, all that goes out the window and I just shoot. But, knowing what that lead should be on paper would surprise most inexperienced people. When I tell my newbies in the field to "double your lead and if that doesn't work double it again) they look at me like I'm nuts... but then the birds start dropping... and "it's oh wow I had no idea you had to shoot that far ahead...."

Nothing beats getting out and putting bb's in the air.

Mugz.
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